Rand's Late Channeling

[Hybrid]

Mmm, true... but then why doesn't Asmodean show any concern? He directly comments on his own strength just before he dies, and yes he's dancing around Aviendha's presense, but even so that comment seems strangely accepting. He says 'I'm not strong'. The possesive, calm declaration of reality. It just strikes me as strange.

 

Good point.  I don't know, though.  I thought all the Forsaken were well above average Aes Sedai strength.  Also, I think that Lanfear would want to keep the shield strong on Asmodean for two reasons.  First, he wouldn't be able to turn on Rand.  I got the feeling that he could barely channel more than a trickle.  I think it was mentioned that floating a goblet across the room was about the extent of his strength with the shield.  If he stayed at or returned to original strength, he would probably try to find some way to assassinate Rand or kidnap him.  He would need something like that to get back into the Dark One's graces.  Second, Lanfear would be able to dispose of him easily when he finished his job.

[Luckers]

I thought all the Forsaken were well above average Aes Sedai strength.

 

Mmm, I did too, but if you think about it we have no reason to think that. The Forsaken came from an age where no special deference was placed on strength--from there, yes, the backstabbing nature of the Forsaken infrastructure does suggest that great strength would help in gaining power, which would explain why most Forsaken were of above average strength--yet none of the Forsaken reguarded Asmodean as a threat, and we know he gained power because he served as a governer--his functional skills made him useful, and he threatened no one.

 

Also, I think that Lanfear would want to keep the shield strong on Asmodean for two reasons.  First, he wouldn't be able to turn on Rand.  I got the feeling that he could barely channel more than a trickle.  I think it was mentioned that floating a goblet across the room was about the extent of his strength with the shield.  If he stayed at or returned to original strength, he would probably try to find some way to assassinate Rand or kidnap him.  He would need something like that to get back into the Dark One's graces.  Second, Lanfear would be able to dispose of him easily when he finished his job.

 

The goblet incident occurs near the beginning, and just before the attack on Rahvin Rand compares him to the Wise Ones equally--the average Wise One strength of those he knew was quite strong, more than capable of moving a goblet--that right there would seem to cast doubt on Rand's evaluations of Asmodeans strength.

 

But yes, i do see why Lanfear would want to continue to constrict Asmodean's strength, i just don't see his behaviour as being consistant as had she done that.

[Cockta]

Indeed, men can never tell exactly how strong each other are, they can only go off what the other man is channeling or holding Saidin, and even then he may be holding some back for the surprise element, as Rand has considered several times with Taim and Dashiva. Men can feel when a woman is holding the True Source but nothing other than the tingly feeling-goosebumps, almost-yet the man cant tell how strong the woman is, or what she is doing, or even which woman if there is more than one

 

Ahh, it's nice to have that cleared out :)

 

I think Asmodean did a clever thing by not threateing anyone, and since he only were a governor, he was occupied by holding and managing his territories.

[Luckers]

Mmm, some people are just good at being passive aggressive wankers. Surprising that people don't shoot them down, but if it works, i guess it works.

 

Still doesn't make them badass.

[Guest Dreadlord]

The Forsaken are all considerably stronger than the average Aes Sedai, but the average Aes Sedai nowadays is much weaker than the average Aes Sedai back in the AoL. The Forsaken were supposedly the 13 most powerful to go over to the Dark, although that cant be proved, but even if they were only average for their time that would still make them way above average strength for this time. Notice how each male Forsaken has been "perhaps as strong as" Rand, or "almost," and obviously we know Rand is considerably stronger than the average male channeler, so that pretty much puts the the Forsaken on a level with Rand-way above average.

[Samudor]

Yes, I was under the impression that Asmodean was the weakest of the remaining Chosen. In my opinion, that was the only reason Rand was able to beat him at Rhuidean. Remember on the way to the city while Skimming, Asmodean through some nasty surprises at Rand, but he was able to counter them. Why else do you think Asmodean raced so hard to the sa'angreal- he knew that despite the difference in their knowledge, Rand would easily overwhelm him one on one. It makes sense that he would have to be a bit more passive in that sense. It seems that several of the Chosen(Asmodean, Mesaana perhaps Semirhage?), while strong, were more than likely only better than average- perhaps on a level with Cadsuane or a little above?

 

And you're right about the Men gauging strength thing- Rand actually doesn't know for sure how strong Mazrim Taim is- he only knows based on when Taim filled himself with the power in Book 6. There is no way of knowing whether or not Taim filled himself completely. Only those idiot women "who call themselves Aes Sedai" in this age care about strength. In the minds of seemingly everyone else besides the White Tower, strength is not as important as knowing what the heck to do with it.

[Cockta]

Yeah, I agree with the strenght thing, you gotta know what to do with it, or else don't bragg about it.

 

And one of my big mysteries has always been how AoL channelers were so much stronger than the ones nowadays?

[Samudor]

Honestly, I think that may only be true in Randland. We know that Alivia is nearly 400 years old and she is not far off of Lanfear. We already know of the at least one Windfinder on a level with Moghedien and Nynaeve. In Randland, it is possible that the "culling" effect(the fact that hardly any male channelers have fathered children in the last 3000 years) may have dulled the possible power potential of the Aes Sedai. Don't forget that, men are typically stronger than women as well- and we know that Lanfear and Graendal were freaks of nature concerning their levels of strength.

 

I think that the remaining Chosen were the strongest or at least among the strongest(with the possible exception of Moghedien, Semirhage, Mesaana and Asmodean) of the Second Age period. And we have already seen that on the male side of things at least two men can play in Rand's court- Logain and Taim.

 

 

[Guest Dreadlord]

The Breaking had a lot to do with the rapid strength decrease in channelers I think. As well as the majority of One Power knowledge being lost, the majority of all channelers-along with everything else-were destroyed, and while the White Tower itself survived many of its members didnt, so while they didnt quite start from scratch you would barely see the difference. Only within the last few centuries-if that-has the strength in channelers begun to climb back up.

[Luckers]

In Randland, it is possible that the "culling" effect(the fact that hardly any male channelers have fathered children in the last 3000 years) may have dulled the possible power potential of the Aes Sedai

 

That's not actually accurate you know. The vast majority of male channelers are learners and all remained within the gene pool. Even the male sparkers likely had already had children before they sparked as the average for male sparking is mid twenties and most men were married by that age.

 

In truth the same holds true for female channelers--the vast majority of female channelers are sparkers, some hundred thousand women, and none approach the Tower. The amount of channelers has decreased since the Age of Legends from 3% to 1% but my guess is that that is a result of a lack of inbreeding between male and female channelers.

 

As for the issue of strength--Consider that the perception of the Aes Sedai has changed over the last one thousand years gaining a negative connotation. As a result less girls are seeking the tower. At the same time the population is decreasing. The combination explain the lack of strong women without the need for a decline in strength.

[Samudor]

That makes sense. It's funny because at work I thought about it a bit more and realized what you just said. I guess that last comment was influenced more because of Book 2- I just started my second read through of the series last month.

 

In that case, it's safe to say then that a good many women who sparked didn't go to the tower and died? Given a wilder has a 1 in 4 chance of survival. That theory also would work for the Seanchan as well, as they catch all the strong ones because of the way they look for channelers. What then is the reason for the general lack of strength? Elayne, Egwene and Aviendha are some of the strongest women in the last 3000 years to be born, and yet they would be about average or slightly above average in the days of Lews Therin. Ideas? Or is there a good reason I missed?

[Vassili]

A few points I'd like to add:

 

Why didn't the Light sweep aside the shadow in the begining? Maybe it was because they had trollocs, or maybe it was because the shadow had more channelers. I'm sure the trollocs played a big role due to their vast and easily replaceable numbers. However, the biggest reason the shadow did so well has to do the the pacifistic nature of the AoL. They did not know war. The concept of fighting was foriegn. Its hard for us to understand this due to the society we live in today, but in the AoL war wasn't just a last resort- it wasn't on the list. That means no armies, no weapons, and no will to fight. The light could have easily conquered the shadow after day one of the Bore, but like Dodo birds they just sat there and got eaten by the new arrival. They fortunately got 100yrs to prepare themselves for the War of Power. But after 3000+ years of peace, 100 years wasn't enough.

 

Why didn't the shadow win after LLT was dead and the DO was sealed away? They still controlled most of the world, had armies of trollocs + numerous forsaken. What did the light have? Nothing. What truelly swept aside the shadow was what swept away the AoL as a whole: the Breaking. After it was over they could not recover without leaders like the Forsaken, and with the DO locked away they had lost a cause. People are naturally good, and without the influence of evil that was present in the last 100yrs of the AoL, they built a new world (albeit flawed) that followed the light.

 

In Randland, it is possible that the "culling" effect(the fact that hardly any male channelers have fathered children in the last 3000 years) may have dulled the possible power potential of the Aes Sedai

 

 

As for the issue of strength--Consider that the perception of the Aes Sedai has changed over the last one thousand years gaining a negative connotation. As a result less girls are seeking the tower. At the same time the population is decreasing. The combination explain the lack of strong women without the need for a decline in strength.

 

More likely it is a result of breeding. In Randland, women who can channel have kids less that in the AoL. When they do, it is highly unlikely the father can channel. Compare domesticated flowers to their wild type relatives. With just a few centuries of timkering, a HUGE difference can be made, and thats just toying with genes already present.

 

[Luckers]

More likely it is a result of breeding. In Randland, women who can channel have kids less that in the AoL. When they do, it is highly unlikely the father can channel. Compare domesticated flowers to their wild type relatives. With just a few centuries of timkering, a HUGE difference can be made, and thats just toying with genes already present.

 

I did address that in that post. 97% of the female channelers remain in the general populace, completely unaware of their ability, and thus as inclined to breed as anyway. A lack of interbreeding between male and female channelers explains the decline from 3% of the population having the ability (as was the case in the Age of Legends) down to the current 1% of the population, but that doesn't provide for why the Tower has declined so far, nor do we have any information that indicates it has any effect on the distribution of strength.

 

Three things have caused the decline in the number of Aes Sedai--one, the general population has dramatically decreased, two the number of girls inclined to seek out training has decreased, and three the Oath Rod has halved the lifespan of Aes Sedai, and thus halved the number. The lack of strong Aes Sedai is simply a matter of ration--where before there were 500,000 girls with the ability accross the land, there are now only 100,000--where before there 10,000 would approach the Tower to be tested for the ability over the course a period of time, now only 500 girls do.

 

 

 

 

[Cockta]

Wow, that's some heavy posts :) It doesn't matter, but I still am not completely understanding why even the strongest male and female channelers are still a little bit weaker than the strongest of teh AoL.

[Vassili]

We have no direct evidence that inbreeding amoung channelers will result in stronger children, but the evidence is there. The significance of genetics in the series is recognized by Aginor who uses it to create half human half animal monsters. We also know the ability to channel is heredititary, strongly implying a genetic component. Past that, we do not know the exact way the channeling genes interact to determine strength, or if the spark is present. That doesn't mean it can't be figured out, and I mean in the books, not by one of us. Partly the reason its confusing is because strength in the power is a spectrum, not he can channel or he can't channel. It also is probably recessive at most or all points, meaning it can skip generations. And the frequency of channeling genes in the non channeling population is unkown, meaning random breeding can have interesting results. Ex:

 

Lets say (x) is a channeling allele, and (X) is nonchanneling dominant allele. Everyone has two alleles at one location on their chromosome, one allele from their mother, and one from there father. In addition, there are, im guessing, 5 locations where these alleles can occur. The result may look like:

 

Person A

 

Xx-no

Xx-no

Xx-no

xx-yes

XX-no

 

One yes means the person can channel, but weakly.

 

Typical Non Channeler

 

XX-no

XX-no

Xx-no

XX-no

Xx-no

 

Typical Current day channeler

 

xx-yes

Xx-no

xx-yes

xx-yes

XX-no

 

 

AoL Channeler

 

xx-yes

xx-yes

xx-yes

xx-yes

xx-yes

 

With this model, sudden strong channelers can seemingly come out of nowhere (like Elayne), just not very often. Random chance determines this, or in Randland its more like the Wheel acting to correct imbalances yada yada...

 

Morgase

 

Xx-no

Xx-no

Xx-no

Xx-no

xx-yes

 

Mr. Damodred

 

Xx-np

Xx-no

Xx-no

Xx-no

Xx-no

 

Note every location has the potential to donate a (x) channeling to a child's location. Elayne gets lucky and inherits that x at every location from both parents.

 

And, yes, inbreeding greatly increases the odds children will be xx at more locations.

[Luckers]

Which, no offense, is all pretty nothings. We have no idea as to the exact interelation of genetics v. soul on the issue of strength. We know both effect whether a person can channel, but anything beyond that is guesswork--and it can't even be educated guesswork since the soul influence provides a completely unpredictable element.

 

 

Wow, that's some heavy posts  It doesn't matter, but I still am not completely understanding why even the strongest male and female channelers are still a little bit weaker than the strongest of teh AoL.

 

They arn't. Rand equals the strongest of the Age of Legenders, as does more than probably Alivia and Sharina.

 

[Hybrid]

Right, the soul plays a major part in the calculations.  Rand is a massively strong channeler, but his parents were Tigraine and Janduin, neither of whom comes from families we have heard to have much channeling in.  His channeling results from LTT's soul, not from genetics.  However, we do have evidence that there has to be some sort of genetic influence on channeling based on the general decrease of strength and numbers unless a Deus Ex Machina such as the Wheel not spinning out many channeling souls currently applies.  If genetic inheritance does have a part to play, the gene itself is likely not simply a dominant/recessive, because there are the strengths in the different elements as well as the Talents.  This would point to a number of different genes, the traits of which combine to form the ability of channeling.

[Vassili]

Right, the soul plays a major part in the calculations.  Rand is a massively strong channeler, but his parents were Tigraine and Janduin, neither of whom comes from families we have heard to have much channeling in.  His channeling results from LTT's soul, not from genetics.  However, we do have evidence that there has to be some sort of genetic influence on channeling based on the general decrease of strength and numbers unless a Deus Ex Machina such as the Wheel not spinning out many channeling souls currently applies.  If genetic inheritance does have a part to play, the gene itself is likely not simply a dominant/recessive, because there are the strengths in the different elements as well as the Talents.  This would point to a number of different genes, the traits of which combine to form the ability of channeling.

 

The wheel sees to it that the soul of a strong channeler is born into a body with the ability to channel and at the correct strength. The same twisting of fate saw to it that Rand would be born of an Aiel, but carried to the two rivers. The wheel crafts the body to match the soul.

 

We have no evidence Rand's parents couldn't channel, or learn to channel. We know next to nothing about his extended family. Even if they weren't as strong as him, my model would make it possible for him to appear.

 

I honestly believe RJ did base channeling off of genes. It doesn't all work out like in RL, but this is fantasy.

[Luckers]

The wheel sees to it that the soul of a strong channeler is born into a body with the ability to channel and at the correct strength. The same twisting of fate saw to it that Rand would be born of an Aiel, but carried to the two rivers. The wheel crafts the body to match the soul.

 

We have no evidence Rand's parents couldn't channel, or learn to channel. We know next to nothing about his extended family. Even if they weren't as strong as him, my model would make it possible for him to appear.

 

I honestly believe RJ did base channeling off of genes. It doesn't all work out like in RL, but this is fantasy.

 

RJ directly stated that both genetics and the soul influence the channeling state.

[Hybrid]

Indeed, the fact that Rand's channeling strength is that of Lews Therin's supports that the soul actually has a bearing in the calculations.  I agree, though, genetics play a part as well.  My point was that it would not be a simple channeling/nonchanneling gene because of the other aspects of channeling, such as relative strengths with the elements and Talents.

[Swigaro]

 

We have no evidence Rand's parents couldn't channel, or learn to channel. We know next to nothing about his extended family. Even if they weren't as strong as him, my model would make it possible for him to appear.

 

I honestly believe RJ did base channeling off of genes. It doesn't all work out like in RL, but this is fantasy.

 

Not to quibble, but we do have partial evidance that Rand's mother at least could not channel.  Since the Andor was established the Daughter-heir was sent to the White Tower to train.  Clearly if she were able to channel, through training or as a sparker, she would not have been allowed to escape to the Waste.  Not that the White Tower was able to keep that close a hold on Elayne.  It is however fairly compelling evidence that Tigrane could not channel in any way.  We also have evidance that Rand's father was, at least, not a sparker.  If he were, he would never have become a clan cheif.  He would have gone off to the blight to battle the dark one as all Aiel males who begin channeling do. 

[Majsju]

 

We have no evidence Rand's parents couldn't channel, or learn to channel. We know next to nothing about his extended family. Even if they weren't as strong as him, my model would make it possible for him to appear.

 

I honestly believe RJ did base channeling off of genes. It doesn't all work out like in RL, but this is fantasy.

 

Not to quibble, but we do have partial evidance that Rand's mother at least could not channel.  Since the Andor was established the Daughter-heir was sent to the White Tower to train.  Clearly if she were able to channel, through training or as a sparker, she would not have been allowed to escape to the Waste.  Not that the White Tower was able to keep that close a hold on Elayne.  It is however fairly compelling evidence that Tigrane could not channel in any way.  We also have evidance that Rand's father was, at least, not a sparker.  If he were, he would never have become a clan cheif.  He would have gone off to the blight to battle the dark one as all Aiel males who begin channeling do. 

 

Elaynes mother, Morgase could channel, and was perfectly able to leave the WT. We kinda have very strong evidence about that...

As long as Tigraine was not strong enough to become an Aes Sedai, she would have recieved her basic training, and then sent back home.

[Swigaro]

Too true.  Regardless, if Tigrane could channel she was no where near Aes Sedai potential.  I would point out, though that in Morgase's case, it is stated repetedly  by her, and by Aes Sedai that she could barely channel, so much so that it appears to be common knowledge.  The fact that nothing is ever mentioned about Tigrane having the ability to channel sugest to me that she had no ability to do so.  This is merely speculation, but, IMO judging from the big deal made about both Morgase and Elayne, it seems likely that any potential ability, no matter how small in a Daughter-heir would be noted.

[Dakeyras]

Nothing much is noted about Tigraine though. Apart from the obvious, she went missing and she was the daughter heir married to Taringail with a son. Other than that we know little of Tigraines life. Morgase's lack of power is noted because she's an active character in the story, same with Elayne. I wouldn't rule out Tigraine having any ability in the one power just because Dyelin didn't turn around and say "Oh btw she could channel but was very weak."

[Cockta]

So both genetics and the soul play a part, well, if that's the case, then we have figured out something big here. The discovery would imply something that I can't figure out, and that is why I ask you to figure out the bigger picture  ;D