When did Couladin decide to be Mr Fake Car'a'carn?

[RAND AL THOR]

I noticed that in the scene where Rand and Co arrive at Rhuidean, Couladin says that Muradin has entered Rhuidean and should Muradin, he (ie Couladin) would enter.

 

Then, Bair tells him that she won't let him go. After that, he says something like "Muradin will come marked as clan chief and he will lead the Shaido to great glory. We mean to-" He cuts off there as though he said more than he intended to.

 

Well now, what did he 'mean to' do? Was the idea of faking the Car'a'carn already in play at this point? I think it unlikely as they required Asmo's help to mark the two dragons. So what gives?

 

And did Couladin know that Asmo is not a mere gleeman? Did Asmo use the power to etch those dragons onto his arms (Rand should have been able to feel that though maybe only a little of the power was used?)

 

Opinions plze.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Now my memory is a bit hazy as its a while since I read that part, but Im sure Couladin actually believed himself as Car'a'carn, because of the Dragons on his own arms. Nothing he did showed that he didnt believe it-I think Couladin thought he was Chief of Chiefs and Rand the imposter. Granted, Couladin didnt experience the visions and whatnot, but through his eyes he was marked with the Dragons, thats all there is to it, plus I dont think he knew about the visions each clan chief has anyway. From Couladins side of it, if you want something to be true, and it looks like it is, why question it? As I said though, its been a while so I might be talking crap,  but Im on the reread (still on TGH, Rand is developing fast woop woop)

 

Asmodean putting those marks on Couladin was a very clever move, even though it didnt work.

[Thorum]

Asmodean putting those marks on Couladin was a very clever move, even though it didnt work.

 

It only closed the Shaido of from the rest of the Aiel (which followed Rand). I think it did work.

[jwess917]

I think Coulidan truly thought he was teh Car'a'carn for several reasons.  He had teh marks by Asmodean although we do not know teh circumstances of when and how.  I also think he was just manipulated by Sevanna who just wanted to use him as a figurehead.  I also think Sevanna and Asmodean were working together although I do not think she knew he was one of the forsaken, much like she did not know Sammael was one.  Come to think of it, for a woman who caused so much trouble, she's actually a self possessed idiot!

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

It only closed the Shaido of from the rest of the Aiel (which followed Rand). I think it did work.

UNQUOTE

 

It worked to a point, but Asmodean put the marks on Couladin to deprive Rand of the Aiel altogether, not just the Shaido. If all the Aiel had thought Couladin was Car'a'carn, Rand would probably have died a long time ago. I think Asmodeans attempt to stop Rand getting the Aiel behind him was a much better move than, say, Sammael taking Illian, or Rahvin manipulating Morgase. The impact of Asmos plan if he had succeeded 100% would have been immense

[Kaznen]

Asmo didn't care one way or another about Rand and his plans for the Aiel.  He just wanted to distract Rand while he went to Rhuidean to get the Choden Kal.  With that he would have been invincible.

[Fjong]

Funny I was just typing the very same thing, when your post came up Kaznen

[Sabio]

Asmo didn't care one way or another about Rand and his plans for the Aiel.  He just wanted to distract Rand while he went to Rhuidean to get the Choden Kal.  With that he would have been invincible.

 

Yup, Lanfear admiited as much.

 

I don't think Couladin really thought he was the Car'a'carn till the very end when he went mad.  I think he was just hoping he would have time to turn the chiefs before Rand got there and maybe they would kill him for being a wetlander.

[Valinthros]

Cauladin had to have known that has not in fact the Cara'carn.  Why?

 

The prophecy states that he would come OUT of rhuidean.  Cauladin knew for a fact that he had never been there.  In fact, to convince everyone else he used the usual no one talks about it response.  I'm a bit cloudy on if he tried to lie about his experiences directly, if only to say that Rand was a liar.

 

As to when he decided to be... well, I'd say as soon as the option was presented to him by Asmodean.  For someone as ambitious as Cauladin, it would have been easy for both Savannah and Asmo either or, to convince him during the trip to the meet to take the offer of the dragons.  I do think there is some reference from either POV or some other conversation about it, but I cant pull it up from memory.

 

As to the rest of that statement Rand Althor, I think it should look something like:

 

"Muradin will come marked as clan chief and he will lead the Shaido to great glory. We mean to cross the dragonwall and teach the filthy wetlanders their place! The lands are rich and the wetlanders soft, glory will be ours!!!"

[RAND AL THOR]

Cauladin had to have known that has not in fact the Cara'carn.  Why?

 

The prophecy states that he would come OUT of rhuidean.  Cauladin knew for a fact that he had never been there.  In fact, to convince everyone else he used the usual no one talks about it response.  I'm a bit cloudy on if he tried to lie about his experiences directly, if only to say that Rand was a liar.

 

 

 

I agree.

 

 

 

As to the rest of that statement Rand Althor, I think it should look something like:

 

"Muradin will come marked as clan chief and he will lead the Shaido to great glory. We mean to cross the dragonwall and teach the filthy wetlanders their place! The lands are rich and the wetlanders soft, glory will be ours!!!"

 

Hmm possibly. I was assuming that it would be something like : Muradin will come marked as the Car'a'carn and we mean to lead all the Aiel over the draognwall etc.. or somthing like that. It was suspicious that he abruptly stopped speaking- that is what made me wonder whether the plan was already hatched at this point.

 

 

Couladin does SEEM to believe that he is the real car'a'carn but that is truly not possible. He did not go to Rhuidean and we see him cleverly avoiding the questions put to him at the Golden Bowl. That implies that he had already prepared all the answers before hand, and only the fakes need to do that. Rand, being the Car'a'carn, did not have to prepare any such. Rand specifically thinks, "He had an answer to everything."

[Valinthros]

Hmm possibly. I was assuming that it would be something like : Muradin will come marked as the Car'a'carn and we mean to lead all the Aiel over the draognwall etc.. or somthing like that. It was suspicious that he abruptly stopped speaking- that is what made me wonder whether the plan was already hatched at this point.

 

I could entertain the idea that it may have already been discussed in some way.  The brains behind something like that would most definitely be the female that manipulated both Muradin and Couladin.  So I can agree partially with that statement.  I dont think he was going to say it though.

 

Couladin does SEEM to believe that he is the real car'a'carn but that is truly not possible. He did not go to Rhuidean and we see him cleverly avoiding the questions put to him at the Golden Bowl. That implies that he had already prepared all the answers before hand, and only the fakes need to do that. Rand, being the Car'a'carn, did not have to prepare any such. Rand specifically thinks, "He had an answer to everything."

 

I agree absolutely.  ;)

[icspots]

I think the whole thing came into his mind between Rhuidean and Cold Rocks Hold.  During that trip is when they run into Asmo/Lanfear with the peddlers in tow.  The reason I say that the whole Car'a'carn thing came into his head during the trip/by the time they arrived at Cold Rocks is due to a few things.  First when they camp for the night Couladin tries to get the peddlers to camp with them as they have greater numbers and Rhurac keeps them because they're in his territory.  Not a lot of proof and it could just be attributed to Couladin's arrogance, but it could be something.  Next when they arrive at Cold Rocks Rhurac Rand and Co. go to ask Lian's permission to come inside.  Rhurac (and I think another chief) use the form for a clan chief.  Rand was supposed to use the form for the chief of chiefs but accidentally uses the form for a clan chief and flatters Lian. Couladin uses the request format of a clan chief and Lian gives him the response she would give a beggar since he isn't actually a chief.  Couladin clams up gets super angry and clasps both of his forarms.  I think he has the dragons at that point and his clasping of his arms was a reminder to tell himself that he has the dragons after being snubbed by Lian in front of everyone.  As to all the events/comments from Couladin prior to that I attribute that to him just being an insanely power-hungry/arrogant/ambitious guy.  I'm not sure when Sevanna started whispering in his ear but I wouldn't put it past her starting to suggest things as soon as Muradin went into Rhuidean. 

 

I don't think Sevanna and Asmo. were plotting together.  Granted not totally reliable but we have Lanfear's statement that the whole thing was just Asmo's way of distracting Rand while he worked his own plans.  Beyond that I don't see Asmo. sinking to the level of bargaining or making a deal with Sevanna... I mean he's one of the Chosen, why deal with someone who can't even channel.  We already know he disagrees with Lanfear about the whole plan, and that's why he starts doing his own thing when he finds out about the access key.  Next reason I don't think Asmo. would sink to making deals with Sevanna is I really don't think she's a dark friend.... remarkably power-blind idiot, but there are too many POV's of her without a single DF thought.  That of course is not to say that they're each not manipulating the other, but I don't think Sevanna knows anything about Asmo. putting dragons on Couladin. 

 

Next off, is Couladin "lying".  Okay we know the Wise Ones told Couladin he could not enter.  We know everyone was keeping a vigil and no one saw him go in.  What no one has suggested is that Asmo. used Compulsion to make Couladin think he entered the city.  Obviously Asmo. didn't know everything that went on inside (the columns/history of the Aiel) so he couldn't give him exact memories, but perhaps just giving him the thought that he had been inside and the dragons to "prove" it were enough and he just justified the rest of it to himself.  Granted there's no proof that Asmo. used compulsion, but from his position it would only enhance the confusion he wanted to sow if he not only gave Couladin dragons, but also gave him memories to go with them..... however flawed.

[trakand_01]

Asmodean putting those marks on Couladin was a very clever move, even though it didnt work.

 

It only closed the Shaido of from the rest of the Aiel (which followed Rand). I think it did work.

 

So technically, Asmodean put in motion the actions which would fulfill one of the prophecies (remnant of a remnant shall be saved). All dependant of course on who you believe the remnant is! I have been pretty well advised it's the Shaido although I could always be wrong!

[Guest Dreadlord]

I cant see the Shaido being the remnant of a remnant if Im honest. If it said remnant then maybe a full clan would be saved, but a remnant of a remnant sounds more like a very small fraction. At least I hope it isnt the Shaido, since it means not only did Rand save the wrong guys, he saved them when he actually wants to destroy them. No, I cant see the Shaido being the remnant of a remnant.

[trakand_01]

I think the theory was that the current 'Aiel' are already a remnant of the original Aiel (can't remember what they were called - before they split to become Tinkers and 'Aiel'), and so the Shaido are thus a remnant of THAT remnant.

[Sabio]

Besides the Shaido have already been beat to snot.  Shouldn't be that many left anyway.  I do think they will try to sit out the last battle if they can and sure that they are part of the remnant of a remnant shall be saved.  But doubt they are the only ones who will live through it.  After all still the Aiel in the waste tending to the homes and Rhudiean.

[RAND AL THOR]

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,30074.0.html

[Luckers]

I was going to write out my thoughts but in the thread Rand just posted i'd already done so, so ill just quote myself. Lol.

 

Firstly concider that it may not be as bad as all that. The prophecy actually states that he will save 'the remnant of a remnant'--THE remnant is a specifier, and breaks the sentence. Recall too that those who spoke it lived with the Jenn and knew the Da'shain. It's entirely possible that the prophecy refers to a remnant of the current incarnation, which is in itself a remnant already of the Da'shain Aiel.

 

Away from the drastic implications of the double remnant, I very much doubt that it refers to the Shaido. The prophecy makes more than clear that those who survive will survive as a direct result of Rand's efforts on their behalf. Far more likely to me is that the prophecy refers to a new Aiel culture evolving--and we've already seen it in the unification of the clans, the revelation of the Da'shain, the Bleakness, the change in position of the Aiel with the rest of the world, the change in the Wise Ones through their dealings with Shaido and Aes Sedai--and it will and must continue... with men now able to channel normally the balance between Chiefs and Wise Ones is thrown in chaos, and with Travelling the barriers established between lands will fade.

 

Aiel culture is in flux, and when it settles again it will be quite different--a remnant, with ties to the old culture as much as that culture had ties to the Da'shain. Don't get me wrong though, i think the Last Battle will be paid in blood, and especially Aiel blood, but i just dont think thats what this prophecy refers to.

[Hybrid]

Far more likely to me is that the prophecy refers to a new Aiel culture evolving--and we've already seen it in the unification of the clans, the revelation of the Da'shain, the Bleakness, the change in position of the Aiel with the rest of the world, the change in the Wise Ones through their dealings with Shaido and Aes Sedai--and it will and must continue... with men now able to channel normally the balance between Chiefs and Wise Ones is thrown in chaos, and with Travelling the barriers established between lands will fade.

 

That is the idea I had in that the Shaido are the remnant of a remnant: they're the only clan to stick (mostly) true to the current idea of the Aiel (the warriors of the Waste).  They're a remnant of the Shaido, a remnant of the Da'shain, and they've returned to their old lifestyle in the Three-fold Land.  The other Aiel, I believe, will change in culture but the Shaido will not.  Interestingly, we haven't seen an Aiel Asha'man yet.  I wonder if the Aiel male channelers are still crusading into the Blight despite Rand's amnesty and the cleansing of saidin...

[Sabio]

That is the idea I had in that the Shaido are the remnant of a remnant: they're the only clan to stick (mostly) true to the current idea of the Aiel (the warriors of the Waste). 

 

Shaido in my opinion strayed the furthest. They basicly became bandits and slavers just killing, looting, and taking wetlanders gai'shain, their wise ones took part in battles.  As said in the book they abandoned ji'e'toh. 

 

 

[Cabriana]

When did Couladin decide to be Mr Fake Car'a'carn?

 

 

Probably right before he packed up the Shaido and headed off to Alcair Dal. With the help of Asmodean. I don't think it took much convincing. Couladin never believed that Rand was the Car'a'carn because he saw him as a wetlander.

 

Reading through the thread that RAND posted on the Shaido, something did occur to me. Before Couladin tried to pass himself off as the Car'a'carn, he tried to act as  clan chief for the Shaido.

 

When Rand was in Rhuidean, he saw the gathering of the Chiefs who were called by the Jenn and the very old Aes Sedai. They were told if they didn't send their Clan Chiefs to Rhuidean, their Clans would be wiped out within a couple of generations and no one would remember their clan names.

 

Could Couladin have doomed the Shaido by acting as their Chief and not going to Rhuidean? Or was the doom foretold case specific to that time?

 

Hmnnn

[Hybrid]

That is the idea I had in that the Shaido are the remnant of a remnant: they're the only clan to stick (mostly) true to the current idea of the Aiel (the warriors of the Waste). 

 

Shaido in my opinion strayed the furthest. They basicly became bandits and slavers just killing, looting, and taking wetlanders gai'shain, their wise ones took part in battles.  As said in the book they abandoned ji'e'toh. 

 

Right now they are.  But I think when it's all said and done, the Shaido will be the ones least affected by the cultural repercussions that Luckers has mentioned.  They have returned to isolation in the Three-fold Land and are not coming out again.

[RAND AL THOR]

Could Couladin have doomed the Shaido by acting as their Chief and not going to Rhuidean? Or was the doom foretold case specific to that time?

 

Hmnnn

 

I would say it was specific to the clan chiefs alive at the time. The way that scene is played out makes me think that way. Of course every consecutive chief must go to Rhuidean but anyone acting as chief without going is not going to fulfill that part of the warning.

When did Couladin decide to be Mr Fake Car'a'carn?

 

 

Probably right before he packed up the Shaido and headed off to Alcair Dal. With the help of Asmodean.

 

Actually, my question questions just that. Was it before they packed up and left or was it after Asmo arrived? Asmo only arrives a few days after they all leave Rhuidean. However, Couladin's words that ended abruptly 'as if he had said too much' was before they left Rhuidean. Then again, I cannot see how Couladin possibly thought he could obtain the dragons in any other way. Soo many clouds.

 

 

[Hybrid]

Well, Couladin is a pretty ambitious guy.  I'm willing to guess that Muradin was as well.  I think that Couladin expected Muradin to come out as a clan chief.  I doubt he expected him to be the Car'a'carn.  However, I imagine the Shaido already had plans to rampage into Cairhien at least, and I doubt the rest of the Aiel would have tried to stop him without Rand.

[Sabio]

That is the idea I had in that the Shaido are the remnant of a remnant: they're the only clan to stick (mostly) true to the current idea of the Aiel (the warriors of the Waste). 

 

Shaido in my opinion strayed the furthest. They basicly became bandits and slavers just killing, looting, and taking wetlanders gai'shain, their wise ones took part in battles.  As said in the book they abandoned ji'e'toh. 

 

Right now they are.  But I think when it's all said and done, the Shaido will be the ones least affected by the cultural repercussions that Luckers has mentioned.  They have returned to isolation in the Three-fold Land and are not coming out again.

 

Have to remember they have totally tossed off the ways of the Aiel and are also made up of people who fled other tribes becuase they couldn't face the truth.  I doubt they can simply just go back and say we are following the ways of the Aiel again and think all will be forgiven.  I think they will most likely fade away and one day become no more because they will try to stick to the old way.  It is totally impossible for the Aiel to stay as they were, since for instance everyone knows what the clan cheifs use to.  How are they do get new wise ones or clan chiefs?