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When did Couladin decide to be Mr Fake Car'a'carn?


RAND AL THOR

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Have to remember they have totally tossed off the ways of the Aiel

No.  They have just changed them.  The core is still based on the Aiel beliefs.  I'm saying that while they are not the same as the Aiel before Rand, they will be the closest after TG and whatever cultural revolution occurs.  The other Aiel remaining in the Waste have already pretty much moved into Rhuidean.  In their eyes, the other Aiel are wrong for following a wetlander.

 

I doubt they can simply just go back and say we are following the ways of the Aiel again and think all will be forgiven. 

Forgiven?  By whom?  They're going back to the Waste and I doubt they are going to interact with the other Aiel except through raids.  They're not going to ask forgiveness.  They believe that they were in the right and the other Aiel are wrong.

 

I think they will most likely fade away and one day become no more because they will try to stick to the old way.

Exactly my point.  They may fade away.  But that fading away will be gradual in the years after TG.  Even if they do fade away, they can still be that remanant of a remnant.

 

It is totally impossible for the Aiel to stay as they were, since for instance everyone knows what the clan cheifs use to.

The Shaido prove that it is.  The Shaido do not believe that Rand was telling the truth about the Da'shain, except for the Wise Ones.  Most believe that they were lies.  Most probably believe Couladin's story about their warrior heritage.  All believe that Couladin was the true Car'a'carn, or that at least Rand was not.  Many believe that Rand got the tattoos through Aes Sedai trickery.

 

How are they do get new wise ones or clan chiefs? 

They could just choose them themselves.  They seemed to have no problem with Sevanna.

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Have to remember they have totally tossed off the ways of the Aiel

No.  They have just changed them.  The core is still based on the Aiel beliefs.  I'm saying that while they are not the same as the Aiel before Rand, they will be the closest after TG and whatever cultural revolution occurs.  The other Aiel remaining in the Waste have already pretty much moved into Rhuidean.  In their eyes, the other Aiel are wrong for following a wetlander.

 

It is totally impossible for the Aiel to stay as they were, since for instance everyone knows what the clan cheifs use to.

The Shaido prove that it is.

 

So... Hybrid, which is it?

 

No offense, but the Shaido are definitely NOT unchanged.

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The change I am talking about it a cultural revolution.  A complete change, perhaps a return to the ways of the Da'shain.  The Shaido have not changed completely.  As I said before:

The core is still based on the Aiel beliefs.

They have changed some small details.  For example, the lack of a clan chief and the taking of wetlander ga'shain.  But, the core is still the same.  They are still a warrior society with septs and warrior societies.  They have returned to the Aiel Waste.  They still have Wise Ones.  The change I expect to happen to the rest of the Aiel is a complete change, so complete they will not be recognizable as the warrior Aiel of the Waste.  In this way, the Shaido will be the only Aiel recognizable as the Aiel of the Waste after TG.

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The change I am talking about it a cultural revolution.  A complete change, perhaps a return to the ways of the Da'shain.  The Shaido have not changed completely.

 

Understood.  The arguement looked as though you stated that there is no change, and it was being argued that there would be change.  Coupled with the contradiction in the same post, it made things quite confusing.  Thank you for the clarification.  ;)

 

On the subject of a remnant of a remnant, I do believe Luckers stated that quite well.  The prophecy seemed to suggest that Rand would take a direct hand in saving that remnant.  Which is to say that Rand will make a cognizant choice, perhaps.

 

On cultural differences, the Aiel can never be what they once were.  Both the Shaido and the Aeil with Rand will continue to keep their own cultural identity.  Sept's, etc.  Both may apply them differently in the future, but for the time being and for a very long time coming those ideals will remain mostly intact.  Skewed a bit on the Shaido's side from the original structure, as Hybrid stated, with the change to clan cheif's etc.  Also skewed directly because of Rand's influence, the Aiel that reside in the wetlands continue to have certain culture shocks.

 

Hybrid:

 

       In saying that the Shaido is the closest to the original Aiel ideal's is in my opinion incorrect.  There is change in the Aiel with Rand, however, it still holds to the original ideals.  Where the Shaido are not following alot of the custom's inherent in Aiel society, which definitely includes heirarchy such as clan chief's and wise one's, the Aiel with Rand are still holding those ideals to heart.  I think with that evidence, I can conclude with confidence that the Shaido will change at a much more rapid pace than those with Rand.  Rand was the catalyst, Sevannah was the instigator, and the wise one's the tools that put those that follow the Shaido on a swifter path to change.

 

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Yeah, my theory was not well-explained because although I'd heard something similar once, I was basically making up my argument on the spot.  You're right, the Shaido right now are the least like the Aiel pre-Rand.  However, I think that they will be the ones to remain truest to that ideal.  My theory exists partly because I'm reading a lot into their desire to return to the Waste and never leave again (isolation, so not much change) and partly because I don't want to believe that the Aiel will be totally destroyed in the Last Battle.

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You and I both dont want that to happen.  Sad day to see a culture that RJ presented with such rich flavor dwindle and die.  I would very much like to see their quirky sense of honor and overall hearty fortitude endure long into the next age.

 

What I'm hoping is, that the remnant is the majority of those that followed Rand.  However, I've no proof of that, only a bit of hope.  Would definitely be a treat.  ;)

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Don't forget that the Shaido have sent a Sept chief to Rhuidean.If Bendhuin survives the columns, he will know the truth.  He might meet the retreating Shaido on his way back to the wetlands and lead them to follow Rand.  I don't think that is probable, the last scene with Galina and Therava seemed pretty final, but it is possible.

 

And there's also Cloglord's theory that the Aiel in the waste will be the first to be annihilated by the shadow.

 

I think Muradin and Couladin planned on leading the Shaido to conquer the Wetlands, probably encouraged by Sevanna, before they knew the Car'a'carn was coming.  But Sevanna was not with them at Rhuidean, they met up with her on their way to Al'cair Dal.  Even without Sevanna, Couladin would have been ripe for Asmodean to use to make trouble for Rand.

 

 

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My reasoning for why the Shaido most likely won't be the last Aiel survivors.  They are made up of the most die hard of the Aiel, the ones who refused to believe what Rand said.  After all the disasters Sevanna has caused them instead of changing they will go back and regress as a clan.  Plus hopefully they will get mashed up on the way back.  I honestly see them just staying to themselves and eventually ending up vainsihing like the Jenn.  While the ones with Rand will change, continue as a nation not as clans anymore and eventually I see ending up back as Da'shain.

 

But really don't see RJ having the Shaido be the aiel survivors from the prophecy.  I mean out of all the Aiel Jenn would of been most horrified to see what the Shaido had become. 

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