Ok the good ones win ....Then what?

[Fryn]

Min sees Brigitte as both younger and older than Cain, so nothing has changed there. And oh, Min only sees the future, though RJ seems to have screwed up with her viewing of Taim.

 

Oops I thought she could the past as well. When Rand asked her what she sees when looking at him I thought her answer was the same as always, which would of included things that have now happened, so are in the past.

 

I guess that answers the question of whether the heros of the horn eventually forget their old lives while in TaR, because they obviously do =). Unless bridgette all of a sudden will start being born either older or younger at random, when previously she had been younger. It would make more sense that there are chunks and the next time she is younger is after teh next version of Elayne gets her ripped out =p.

[Majsju]

I guess that answers the question of whether the heros of the horn eventually forget their old lives while in TaR, because they obviously do =). Unless bridgette all of a sudden will start being born either older or younger at random, when previously she had been younger. It would make more sense that there are chunks and the next time she is younger is after teh next version of Elayne gets her ripped out =p.

 

Eh, what?

We,, I do not know anything about Bridgette, but we know from Birgitte that she has quite a good collection of memories ranging back at least to the War of Power, possibly even further back.

But what possible connection that would have when it comes to her being spun out as either older or younger than Cain...

[Sabio]

Unfortunately RJ admitted to not being a fan of tying up all loose ends so probably will never know what Min's viewing of Avi's babies will mean.

 

 

 

 

[Fryn]

Eh, what?

We,, I do not know anything about Bridgette, but we know from Birgitte that she has quite a good collection of memories ranging back at least to the War of Power, possibly even further back.

But what possible connection that would have when it comes to her being spun out as either older or younger than Cain...

 

When we first meet bridgette we find out that they have known LTT et al for countless turnings of the wheel. They know him by his soul and would always recognize him. So at this point Bridgette has memories stretching back multiple turnings of the wheel not just since the AoL.

 

Later in TaR Bridgette says that for as long as she can remember she and Cain have been linked. She is always younger and finds him in some sort of snare that she needs to save him from. In fact she knows the pattern will need her soon when Cain is no longer in TaR. Going that this version of Bridgette has the same memories as teh one summoned from the horn, you know that her memories go further back that just the War of Power.

 

After being ripped out she says that she is losing her old memories and is scared she will forget Cain and never see him again. She had always been the younger and wasn't sure if they would find each other. She had more memories when she was first yanked out and is down to the formation of the white tower now (iirc).

 

So for countless turnings bridgette remembers being the younger of the two, so either they eventually forget some of their previous lives even in TaR or this is the first time bridgette is older than Cain.

 

Further it will either now be willey nilley on which is older/younger, or cain will always be younger until the next time something happens to change the order of which is older/younger. Which if my theory of the Do trying to warp the pattern could be linked to the turnings where the Do has the greatest chance to escape the pattern and destroy the wheel.

 

Based on what we have heard from bridgette though I expect bridgette to be the older of the pair for a long time to come though rather than it being completely random, when through all the previous turnings bridgette remembers being the younger.

[CUBAREY]

[After being ripped out she says that she is losing her old memories and is scared she will forget Cain and never see him again. She had always been the younger and wasn't sure if they would find each other. She had more memories when she was first yanked out and is down to the formation of the white tower now (iirc).

 

/i]

 

First you are factually wrong, Brigette says she is sometimes born younger sometimes older then Cain. Moreover, whether she is younger or older is determined by the needs of the Wheel of Time. There is nothing in the books that precludes the theory that she will continued to be "turned out" as the pattern demands. Brigitte has only expressed fears that if she does not connect with Cain in this life their link will be broken. This is simply a fear, if she meets up with him 18 years in the future the dictates of the link would be met.

 

Your primary shortcoming, however, is that you misread here earliest POV's to say she is always younger. She says no such thing.

[Fryn]

Really? FoH meetings "She was always born after Gaidel; a year, or five, or ten, but after"

 

After a little more searching, TSR explains most of it. Bridgette says over time she forgets her older lives until they are just a memory, and remembers nearer lives in full. She also said she is almost always linked to cain (but not always), and that cain is usually spun out well before Brigette so when she can't find him she knows its almost time.

 

The few times he isn't spun out before her are likely the times when they aren't linked together. It could be when Brigette is older, but Min's vision makes it seem like it is more balanced (she says some when she is older some where she is young; she didnt say a few where she was older).

[Majsju]

Really? FoH meetings "She was always born after Gaidel; a year, or five, or ten, but after"

 

That is Nynaeves thought, based on ther stories she has read.

Birgittes own comment in TSR is that Cain is usually spun out before here. And usually is not the same as always...

 

And her name is Birgitte. There is no character in the books named Bridgette.

[Fryn]

Sorry part dyslexic, its 4am, and Im raiding =p. Im also horrid with names so anything past hey you is a big improvement =). Usually is more than the semi balance Min's vision seemed to have though.

 

I don't mind being wrong though =). If I did I wouldn't discuss the books. And as I have said I should probably reread them, but Im waiting till AMoL is closer. Hunting quotes in teh mean time is helping me remember.

[DemandredFO]

I got the impression that Min can see the past.  I think it's A crown of Swords Min has a viewing of a really old wise one.  From her comments that what she saw was impossible I thought she saw past events to indicate the WO was like 300 or so.  It wasn't Sorilea but I forget the name, it started with a C, I believe.

[Majsju]

Mins viewing says "some were connected to an ugly man who was older that she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger". That does not speak of a semi-balance, since 'some' and 'others' could meand 50/50, 90/10, 20/80...

 

Rereading is good for improving the understanding of the books. I lost count long ago how many times I have read these damn books ;D

 

I got the impression that Min can see the past.  I think it's A crown of Swords Min has a viewing of a really old wise one.  From her comments that what she saw was impossible I thought she saw past events to indicate the WO was like 300 or so.  It wasn't Sorilea but I forget the name, it started with a C, I believe.

 

Sure that was a viewing Min had? I looked through both the FAQ and the Encyclopedia, and none of them mentions any such thing.

 

But we have confirmation from RJ that Min only sees the future, from one of the Q&As at D*Con -05.

[Cockta]

Since when was Aviendha pregnant?

[Fryn]

Since when was Aviendha pregnant?

Isn't yet. Min's veiwign says she will be though

[Cockta]

Huh, wow. Now it is just up to Min to get pregnant.  ;)

[Brigadier]

Am I the only one who doesn't hate Faile?  I don't think she will die, but I think Davram might.  It would make a convenient way to give Perrin lordship of The Two Rivers and an influential position in Saldea.

[Majsju]

I have never hated Faile. Sure, she can be extremely annoying sometimes, especially with the jealousy, but then, pretty much all characters has something annoying about them.

 

 

[Brigadier]

Thanks Maj.  I feel vindicated.

[Mr Ares]

Am I the only one who doesn't hate Faile? I don't think she will die, but I think Davram might. It would make a convenient way to give Perrin lordship of The Two Rivers and an influential position in Saldea.

I've got nothing against Faile. How does Davram dying get Perrin Lordship of the TR? And he'll likely be a King or similar in Saldaea - hence the Broken Crown viewing Min had. Which is why many people have Davram marked for death.

[DemandredFO]

I had this toought a week or two ago when I listened to this part.  Could the broken crown be the sun crown that Rand broke to get off Colvare's head?  I mean he remade it but it was still broken for a little.

[Mr Ares]

I had this toought a week or two ago when I listened to this part. Could the broken crown be the sun crown that Rand broke to get off Colvare's head? I mean he remade it but it was still broken for a little.

The crown of Saldaea is called the Broken Crown. So I would say that for all your suggestion may be possible, it is the less likely.

[Hybrid]

who do you all think will live and who will die?  i think mat will make it but tom merrilin may not and i kinda think rand will either die or become the dark one and perrin will have to kill him.

:o :o :o

This one's not even from the same ballpark...

 

I had this toought a week or two ago when I listened to this part.  Could the broken crown be the sun crown that Rand broke to get off Colvare's head?  I mean he remade it but it was still broken for a little.

I think actually Rand made a Mask of Mirrors of the crown breaking, because suddenly it was whole again afterwards.  Also, I don't see how Perrin has a claim to Cairhien.

[Brigadier]

Davram dying doesn't give Perrin lordship of the Two Rivers.  He already has that, and I suspect that he'll end up w/some arrangement with Elayne to keep it.  I was thinking that Davram's death would put Faile closer to the throne.  I don't think Perrin will be king of Saldaea; more like a Prince-Consort or some such thing would be my guess, or maybe Marshall-General.

[Fryn]

Davram dying doesn't give Perrin lordship of the Two Rivers.  He already has that, and I suspect that he'll end up w/some arrangement with Elayne to keep it.  I was thinking that Davram's death would put Faile closer to the throne.  I don't think Perrin will be king of Saldaea; more like a Prince-Consort or some such thing would be my guess, or maybe Marshall-General.

 

Considering the following. Andor has spent a long time ignoring the Two Rivers. The crown has not called for taxes for generations. When the Two Rivers needed help they had to fend for themselves. The Two Rivers now has a standing army with the finest archers in Randland. That the lord of the Two Rivers. The residents of The Two Rivers do not consider themselves Andorans. Perrin (Lord of The Two Rivers) has the fealty of the ruler of Ghealdan.

 

The only person that thinks The Two Rivers is part of Andor is Elayne. All of the main characters; Rand, Perrin, Mat, Egwene, and Nyv all think of being outside Elayne's rule. I get the feeling Elayne will be in for a world of hurt if she even tried to take up that part of Andor as her land. Perrin might of been thrown into being made a lord, but I don't think he would bow down to a ruler who hasn't helped his people, even if they are friends.

 

Much like Elayne thinks that Mat is rounding up to be a great subject... Mat won't end out being one of Andor's generals =p

[Brigadier]

You're right.  I forgot about Ghealdan.  Still, I can't see Elayne being willing to let TR go (Morgase certainly wasn't) or an independant Manatheren forming.  However, I don't really see either her or Perrin being eager to come to blows over it.  Perhaps a compromise, a "Manatheren District" including a semi-autonomous TR and Ghealdan that would still technically be part of Andor.  It seems reasonable to me, especially if Elayne has to manage Cairhien too.  Of course, I've been wrong before, but it seems possible for a post-Tarmon Gaidon Randland to me.

[Fryn]

I don't think it would come to blows, and like you said with Cairhen Elayne will be awful busy. Perrin will likely have Saldea under his control in one way or another so would have 3 of Andor's fronts in post TG. The Two Rivers in the link between the 2 and I don't see him want it to give it up. And even if he would, I'm not sure what Faile would do =p

 

It is likely that the Seachan will control most of the southern continent so I don't see Elayne pushing Perrin too hard, as she will have to worry about the large section of land that will border the Seachan.

 

The Two Rivers folk seem proud of their heritage and I don't see them accepting a far off queen easy, even if Perrin does. Perrin's own words "We are free men"

[Mr Ares]

more like a Prince-Consort or some such thing would be my guess.

King-Consort would be mine, and possibly co-ruler as well.

 

When the Two Rivers needed help they had to fend for themselves.

Did the outside know they needed help?

 

Personally, I doubt that Elayne would try to reestablish her hold of the TR with force. There are far better means to that end.But it being brought more fully into Andor is something I don't see as unreasonable.

 

Perhaps a compromise, a "Manatheren District" including a semi-autonomous TR and Ghealdan that would still technically be part of Andor.

Why would Ghealdan be a part of Andor, even if Perrin was given a de jure Lordship?

 

The Two Rivers in the link between the 2 and I don't see him want it to give it up.

The TR isn't much of a link between anything. Between Saldaea and Andor lies a stretch of the Caralain Grass, between the TR and the Northern Andoran border there is more Andor, including Baerlon. While Elayne may accept giving Perrin the TR, she is not likely to be happy about Perrin taking more land, enough to link the TR with Saldaea. There are mines there, don't forget, and I can't see Elayne being happy about potentially more valuable links to those mines being severed by Perrin's expansionist tendencies. Furthermore, most of what comes into or out of the TR does so via the North, at Taren Ferry. Is there a bridge or ferry over the White River? If not, then until there is one it would not be much of a link to Ghealdan.