Tuon's Comparison

[RAND AL THOR]

Just a fun topic, nothing serious or overly important.

 

Since Tuon can learn to channel, she tells Mat that it is her choice , just like it is her choice whether or not she should steal or murder someone. Hence, she declares that she is different from damanae who are those who MUST channel no matter what.

 

How logical do you think this comparison is? I'll save my own answer for later.

[Guest Dreadlord]

The Seanchan view channeling as something that must be controlled I think, to such a degree that channelers are collared not only so they can be used, but perhaps so they wont have as much influence as they might if left to their own devices. I think Tuon thinks that, since she could technically live her full life without channeling she is an exception to the rule.

 

Personally, while I can see her logic in it (if I am right, of course) to me a channeler is a channeler. The grey areas between someone born with the spark and someone only born with the ability to learn are mostly things like strength and Talents, rather than the channeling ability doing something different.

 

As I said, I can understand how Tuon seperates herself from the damane in that respect but, purely because she doesnt know as much about channeling and the way things work as we do, I would say she isnt wholly right. As I said, if you can channel you can channel, if you cant you cant. What difference does it make whether you do or not?

 

[RAND AL THOR]

As I said, I can understand how Tuon seperates herself from the damane in that respect but, purely because she doesnt know as much about channeling and the way things work as we do, I would say she isnt wholly right. As I said, if you can channel you can channel, if you cant you cant. What difference does it make whether you do or not?

 

Yes I can see what you are saying and agree somewhat. But the logic behind what she said is simple:

She has hands. She can kills someone is she wishes. (compare to: she can channel if she wishes).

She chooses to not kill anyone and live a nice life (compare to:chooses not to channel)

 

Even if we have to ability to do something evil, does it make us evil just because we have the capability? No. Only if we actually do the deed

That is how Toun sees it.

 

Of course channeling is not really evil-even in the Seanchan view.

 

I'm not contradicting you dreadlord, i saw how carefully you phrased your response. I just wanted to clarify things a bit.

;)

[Guest Dreadlord]

I know what you mean. She doesnt realise that channeling doesnt necessarily change your PoV on the good-evil axis, and that channeling can easily achieve as much good as it can evil. As you said RAT, you could kill someone with your hands, or not. You could kill someone with the Power, or not. Its a coice you make based on your personality and frame of mind, not whether or not you can channel.

 

My original point in my first post was that Tuon believes the difference between her and damane to be more than it actually is. Her comparison isnt as qualified as it would be from someone from the Tower.

 

The Damane have the spark, Tuon doesnt.

 

Narishma has the spark. Flynn doesnt. Does that make Narishma worse then Flynn in any way? We all know it doesnt. Tuon doesnt know that much what she is talking about on this

[Luckers]

The problem in her logic is that Damane are not offered the chance to not channel. They could be severed from the Source, but there is no choice in it for them. It destroys the argument altogether.

[RAND AL THOR]

 

My original point in my first post was that Tuon believes the difference between her and damane to be more than it actually is. Her comparison isnt as qualified as it would be from someone from the Tower.

 

The Damane have the spark, Tuon doesnt.

 

Narishma has the spark. Flynn doesnt. Does that make Narishma worse then Flynn in any way? We all know it doesnt. Tuon doesnt know that much what she is talking about on this

Absolutely yes.

[Mr Ares]

Narishma has the spark. Flynn doesnt. Does that make Narishma worse then Flynn in any way? We all know it doesnt. Tuon doesnt know that much what she is talking about on this

By Tuon's reasoning, Narishma had no choice - like a man with no choice but to kill, whereas Flinn had a choice, and made the wrong one - like someone who chooses to become a killer. In effect, it makes Flinn worse than Narishma.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Indeed. I think its her view on channeling in general thats wrong as well as the comparison between herself and the damane.

 

Flynn and Narishma agreed to serve the Dragon Reborn. Neither knew from the start they would become Ashaman, so with respect to the choice of whether or not to kill, that makes no difference here, since none left when they realised what theyd be doing. So its just like saying Narishma is worse because he was born with the spark

[Silver]

Well they could have stopped once they realized what they were being tested for. So yes, it does make a difference. They chose to continue and learn to channel.

[Asmo]

*shrugs* It's really simple. The Seanchan collar use those potential channelers who can learn to leash those who have the spark. Once a potential channeler learns to channel, such as Bethamin and Seta did, she becomes the same as a channeler with the spark, a marath'damane. But up until that point, she is a sul'dam. Tuon has not learnt to channel and does not wish to, and until she does, she is a sul'dam, not a marath'damane. It's completely logical, without any Seanchan weirdness playing in - apart from their belief that those with the spark must be leashed, anyway.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Well they could have stopped once they realized what they were being tested for. So yes, it does make a difference. They chose to continue and learn to channel

UNQUOTE

 

Narishma couldnt have stopped really though, since we know he has the spark just like Rand, so no matter what he does he would have ended up channeling anyway. Flynn, on the other hand, didnt have the spark. So of those two, if we are looking through Tuons eyes in this then Flynn is the one in the wrong. And Narishma should aparantly be collared.

 

Essentially, Tuon thinks of herself as better than the damane because she can live without ever touching the Source, while the damane-who have no choice in the matter-are like animals, and are treat like pets. Her logic isnt very strong at all in this subject, and the same goes for most of the Seanchan.

 

I wonder if the Seanchan will ever realise just how much stronger they would be as a whole if all the people who wear the bracelet of the damane (sul'dam? not sure lol) actually learned to channel AS WELL as wearing the damane...

[RAND AL THOR]

*shrugs* It's really simple. The Seanchan collar use those potential channelers who can learn to leash those who have the spark. Once a potential channeler learns to channel, such as Bethamin and Seta did, she becomes the same as a channeler with the spark, a marath'damane. But up until that point, she is a sul'dam. Tuon has not learnt to channel and does not wish to, and until she does, she is a sul'dam, not a marath'damane. It's completely logical, without any Seanchan weirdness playing in - apart from their belief that those with the spark must be leashed, anyway.

 

Indeed not. Never before has any suldam become a damanae. That ONLY occured during Egeanin;s capture of a suldam. Egeanin was the first Seanchan to realize this.

 

 

[Asmo]

*shrugs* It's really simple. The Seanchan collar use those potential channelers who can learn to leash those who have the spark. Once a potential channeler learns to channel, such as Bethamin and Seta did, she becomes the same as a channeler with the spark, a marath'damane. But up until that point, she is a sul'dam. Tuon has not learnt to channel and does not wish to, and until she does, she is a sul'dam, not a marath'damane. It's completely logical, without any Seanchan weirdness playing in - apart from their belief that those with the spark must be leashed, anyway.

 

Indeed not. Never before has any suldam become a damanae. That ONLY occured during Egeanin;s capture of a suldam. Egeanin was the first Seanchan to realize this.

 

 

 

Well, if you probably don't even know you can learn to channel, and have noone to teach you to channel, and no incentive to learn to channel and every reason not to, it does make sense that you, well, don't learn how to channel.

[Fryn]

*shrugs* It's really simple. The Seanchan collar use those potential channelers who can learn to leash those who have the spark. Once a potential channeler learns to channel, such as Bethamin and Seta did, she becomes the same as a channeler with the spark, a marath'damane. But up until that point, she is a sul'dam. Tuon has not learnt to channel and does not wish to, and until she does, she is a sul'dam, not a marath'damane. It's completely logical, without any Seanchan weirdness playing in - apart from their belief that those with the spark must be leashed, anyway.

 

Indeed not. Never before has any suldam become a damanae. That ONLY occured during Egeanin;s capture of a suldam. Egeanin was the first Seanchan to realize this.

 

 

 

Well, if you probably don't even know you can learn to channel, and have noone to teach you to channel, and no incentive to learn to channel and every reason not to, it does make sense that you, well, don't learn how to channel.

 

True, but it sounds like most Sul'dam have progressed to the point that they can channel. You hear them talking about how the longer one works with damane the more in tune they feel, and they begin to see the weaves. We already know from multiple sources that the only way you can see weaves is if you feel the source (or embrace it? I can't recall). Considering Tuon is considered one of the best Sul'dam it is highly probable that she is at the same point as the runaway Suldam. You can add it to the information that she is deveolping slower than normal and looks a lot younger at first appearance (do channelers start aging slower when they embrace? or when they actually channel?). The real question would be whether Tuon would ever admit she can channel even if she realised it herself.

 

It also seems from the accounts we have heard of Seachan that the royal family (especially the empress) tends to live a long time. Not confirmed, but that was always my take on it. It would be pretty easy for a smart suldam to hide any channeling if they did figure it out as well. They would just need to do it around a damane. I would guess none had figured it out, but you never know.

[Asmo]

Yes, it's quite possible that some sul'dam have realized they can do exactly what is termed as "channeling". However, let us keep in mind that the Seanchan are of a mindset - certain people can use the a'dam and be sul'dam, and certain people can channel and be damane. The two are separate things, but not entirely different. If a sul'dam actually starts channeling, she becomes the same as a damane, but not in the Seanchan point of view. And as long as she doesn't actually channel, everything is as it was, no harm done. Perhaps - most - the sul'dam really don't identify what they feel they can do or even do as channeling, and think it's some inherent property of them holding the leash for a long time. Revealing that all sul'dam can channel may not shake the Seanchan as much as Rand and the others think, since it's pretty obvious most share Tuon's POV - as long as you don't channel, you are not a marath'damane, and if you happen to be able to hold the leash, you are a sul'dam. Especially with their continent ravaged by Semirhage, I doubt most Seanchan will even think twice about it.

[Avery]

Is it ever explained why the Seanchan do not want channelers to be free? I'm sure it has been explained somewhere, but I can't recall.

 

Perhaps the Seanchan don't like the power (I'm talking political/military power here, power that comes from one's ability to destroy/coerce/awe people) that comes with being able to channel given out randomly to people. Their system is based on a more rigid nobility than anywhere else, and so for someone to be born with a vast amount of power with little connection to the Empress or Blood is quite antithetical to their culture. They leash anyone who has it so that power can be used for the empire. If that's the case, and Tuon is aware of that, perhaps she sees it as a moot point since she is already heir to the Empress and not a threat to the throne.

[Majsju]

The Aes Sedai on the Seanchan continent where not organised like the Aes Sedai on "our" continent. They used their power to set themselves up as local rulers, and since no White Tower = no Oath Rod, it was most likely a quite messy rule, so to speak...

[Kaznen]

The people were terrified of their AS rulers.  They can't wrap their heads around the restrictions the Randland AS have under the WT.

 

They are afraid of the days when you went to sleep not knowing if you would wake up.

[CUBAREY]

 

You must remember that the Seanchen view channelers as evil. They broke the world and are even now trying to control it. A damane is tainted with this evil and seen as less then human. Moreover, until recently the Seanchen believed their tests caught all potential channelers not just those with a spark. Suldam were bot believed to be able to channel at all.

 

Now Tuon's view is similar to a man who has an extra chromosome. Such individuals are prone to be violent but not all such individuals are violent. Similarly Tuon knows she could channel but because she is not debased she chooses not to be. Her murder analogy is apt to the extent that her point of view is accepted. In this regard, it should be noted that the Seanchen view of Channelers is only marginally less extreme then those held by some in Randland (tear, Far Madding).

 

Damn software glitches.. Silver :P

[Silver]

Interesting, quoting from another thread... :P

[Luckers]

Just pointing out but the Seanchan Aes Sedai's militant control of their society has a basis--during the first thousand years following the breaking they were involved in constant warfare with the Shadow--and they were successful in eradicating all shadowspawn with the exception of a few darghkar. That they continued with war after that as a method of dealing with each other has to pretty much be expected--yet i don't think we should completely demonize these Aes Sedai--they did what they could and fell victim to it.

 

And for all that we do know that they commited attrocities, the current Seanchan veiw of marath'damane is clearly constructed. And insustainable. The reality of Randland channelers forbids it. The Seanchan will be forced to confront their nature, and soon.

[Silver]

Unless all the Randland channies are leashed. Then it'll be good times.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Aviendha made the observation when she had run from Rand and the Seanchan found her gateway.  When Rand mentioned that the damane could channel, she then mentioned that the sul'dam could as well, though it appeared that they had never before used their ability which confused Aviendha.  But the ability was there to sense, which meant that the sul'dam had channeled at some point to activate this type of sense.

 

A woman who can learn to channel is not someone who can't be sensed by other channelers if i'm not mistaken.  It is when she touches the True Source that the ability is manifested and is then able to be sensed...along with that woman's potential in the Power.  Since Aviendha could sense the ability in both the sul'dam and the damane, it seems to me that sul'dam unconsiously channel and probably write it off as was described - that is, the longer you handle damane the more you develop an affinity to them; knowing how strong they are...sensing when they hold the True Source, etc.

[Silver]

More likely, the controlling of damane over time has... worn away the difference between having the spark and needing to learn.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Even her philosophy of "Murder don't murder" "Channel don't channel" is wrong. What about the woman she killed who was about to kill mat in Maderin? It was okay because what?.....She did in defense of someone she cared about? Other than Asha'man and damane 90% of channeling in the series is done for some other purpose than causing harm to someone. So in all reality it should be obvious that theres more Non-channeler violence going on in the WoT than channeling violence. Excluding major battles, Dumais Wells etc. Albeit in Seanchan I get the idea that there is ALOT less violence and crime in general than the rest of the world.