Where do warders stand?

[Guest Dreadlord]

The normal Aes Sedai bond doesnt grant control in any way.

[wconn1979]

I cant go back in the books right now and get the exact quotes, but there is some mentions of AS useing thier bonds to compel thier warders, they have to channel and touch thier bond in some way to do it.  So the bond does grant control in some form.

[Lemno]

I cant go back in the books right now and get the exact quotes, but there is some mentions of AS useing thier bonds to compel thier warders, they have to channel and touch thier bond in some way to do it.   So the bond does grant control in some form.

 

Well, yes, they use a mild form of compulsion. I believe some AS calls it "to compel a warder". The only difference is that they channel upon the bond (aka: the knot of emotion in their head) instead of the person, the weaving itself doesn't differ. It is also said somewhere that it is slightly frowned upon i think and that it is really something of the past

[42Bonzo88]

    Thank you for straightening out the difference between Ashaman and regular Warder bonding. Also, back to the deal with some Warders being treated as slaves. We don't know that particular Warder's pov, it might be that he doesn't mind doing those things (kind of like opening a car door for someone), Lan sometimes does things for Moiraine that you would think a servant should do. It might be out of respect.

 

    Then again, some warders might not fully realize what they are getting into and find that thier Aes Sedai is a jerk and makes them do things that they didn't know they would need to do (some find the military is'nt all like they see in the commercials on T.V.) or their Aes Sedai might neglect them the way some owners do with thier pets.

 

    I can't remember exactly, but I thought it said that one of the Black Sisters was running away or hiding from her warder because he found out she was black Ajah and was trying to kill her. Does anyone else remember reading that?

[trakand_01]

I remember reading that one of the BA sisters (I completely forget which), her Warders were coming towards her (she could sense them). I think she stated that only one of them was a non-darkfriend.

 

I do vaguely remember one of them being hunted by her warder, or having BEEN hunted by her warder. Didnt one of the AS undergo an assassination attempt at the hand of her irate warder when he found out?

[wconn1979]

I remember reading that one of the BA sisters (I completely forget which), her Warders were coming towards her (she could sense them). I think she stated that only one of them was a non-darkfriend.

 

Asne Zeramene has four Warders, but only one of them, Powl, is a Darkfriend.

 

Got the info from http://www.encyclopaedia-wot.org/

 

 

I do vaguely remember one of them being hunted by her warder, or having BEEN hunted by her warder. Didnt one of the AS undergo an assassination attempt at the hand of her irate warder when he found out?

 

Eldrith is careless with masking her bond. Kennit, convinced that she is a murderer and possibly Black Ajah, follows her to Samara intent on killing her. (WH,Ch10)

[wconn1979]

I found the ino you were talking about trakand, I edited my post above to show it.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

i'll start off with the compulsion issue.  personally, i think the warder bond and the ashaman bond are the exact same things, simply made with different sides of the OP.  COMPULSION is DEFINITELY part of the warder bond(although, the specific mechanics probably work differently than Compulsion).  the confusion stems from the fact that AS DO NOT use compulsion to its full-strength.  I suspect that complete compulsion was only used during times when AS bonded unwilling warders and its usage was necessary to control them.  with the decline of this practice, the use of compulsion became a rarity and it was used in less strength.  AS only use it now to 'convince,' rather than control, their warders.  this mild compulsion simply serves to make their warder more susceptible to suggestions.  you'll note that ashaman bonders are capable of making their bondees return mindlessly to them(case in point, logain and his bonded Red sister).  likewise, you'll notice how Lan 'returned' mindlessly to Myrelle.  THIS IS a result of Moiraine's warder compulsion(she SPECIFICALLY says this); its not any of this 'post-partum depression' nonsense you guys keep talking about. 

 

now, onto the 'special' cases:

elayne and birgitte - elayne is probably just untrained in the use of warder compulsion, or warder compulsion simply doesn't work on females, its indeterminate at this point, but either way makes sense.

 

rand and alanna - warder compulsion didn't work because rand was holding saidin immediately after being forcibly bonded, OR it simply doesn't work on male channelers(our only other reference the AS-ashaman with rand)

 

elyas and his AS - simply, the bond was 'fuzzled.'  i don't remember if warders could do this or not.  if they could, its obvious why elyas did.  if his AS did it, it was because she doesn't want a 'DF' to know her whereabouts and otherwise be involved with a DF .  also, she couldn't release him from his bond because he had run away.

 

 

as to why warders become warders, i have a feeling quite a large number of them are 'loners.'  that is to say, people who invest their time in largely solitary pursuits(ala lan's personal war against the shadow).  as such, they don't actually 'lose' anything(they likely don't ever care to become 'famous'(ala a ruler of some kind), start a family, etc.), rather, they GAIN a purpose.  As warders, they will have

[Mr Ares]

likewise, you'll notice how Lan 'returned' mindlessly to Myrelle. THIS IS a result of Moiraine's warder compulsion(she SPECIFICALLY says this); its not any of this 'post-partum depression' nonsense you guys keep talking about.

When does she specifically say that? Quotes or it didn't happen. And the "post-partum depression", as you put it, is a well established consequence of the Warder bond snapping. Warders are often sucidally violent, and Lan, while more restrained than most Warders, certainly did not go out of his way to avoid a fight, which would seem to fit with what we know.

 

now, onto the 'special' cases:

elayne and birgitte - elayne is probably just untrained in the use of warder compulsion, or warder compulsion simply doesn't work on females, its indeterminate at this point, but either way makes sense.

Another possible explanation would be that Elayne chooses bot to use it.

[wconn1979]

likewise, you'll notice how Lan 'returned' mindlessly to Myrelle. THIS IS a result of Moiraine's warder compulsion(she SPECIFICALLY says this); its not any of this 'post-partum depression' nonsense you guys keep talking about.

When does she specifically say that? Quotes or it didn't happen. And the "post-partum depression", as you put it, is a well established consequence of the Warder bond snapping. Warders are often sucidally violent, and Lan, while more restrained than most Warders, certainly did not go out of his way to avoid a fight, which would seem to fit with what we know.

 

now, onto the 'special' cases:

elayne and birgitte - elayne is probably just untrained in the use of warder compulsion, or warder compulsion simply doesn't work on females, its indeterminate at this point, but either way makes sense.

Another possible explanation would be that Elayne chooses bot to use it.

 

In TGH CH 22 is where Moiraine talks to Lan about the Bond, I dont have TGH with me or I would get the quotes to settle it.

[Mr Ares]

In TGH CH 22 is where Moiraine talks to Lan about the Bond, I dont have TGH with me or I would get the quotes to settle it.

Indeed, she mentions that he would be compelled to seek out Myrelle. Good to see someone knows how to reference the books accurately. Although, could it be a by-product of the bond being passed, rather than due to Moiraine compelling him through the bond?

[wconn1979]

In TGH CH 22 is where Moiraine talks to Lan about the Bond, I dont have TGH with me or I would get the quotes to settle it.

Indeed, she mentions that he would be compelled to seek out Myrelle. Good to see someone knows how to reference the books accurately. Although, could it be a by-product of the bond being passed, rather than due to Moiraine compelling him through the bond?

 

In LoC: Chapter 52,  Myrelle uses Spirit on the bond to force him to come to her.  I dont have the book to get the exact wording.  But she talks about the bond again there.

[Mr Ares]

In LoC: Chapter 52, Myrelle uses Spirit on the bond to force him to come to her. I dont have the book to get the exact wording. But she talks about the bond again there.

Nothing helpful there. It only tells us things we already knew. So, was Lan going to Myrelle an inherent part of the bond being passed, or a separate piece of compulsion done through the bond without Lan's knowledge months or years before it would take effect by a woman that had never used compulsion through the bond (if at all) before? Was Lan taking the most direct route something to do with the bond being passed and his "mindless compulsion" or could he have taken a quicker but less direct route, but chose not to because he was not in a very rational frame of mind following the death of his bond holder (something with known physical and psycholgical effects)?

[RAND AL THOR]

Where do warders stand?

;D

 

[Mr Ares]

Where do warders stand? ;D

Where their Sister tells them to. If they're good, they might be allowed to sit.

[42Bonzo88]

"Where do warders stand? ;D" Preferrably on their feet, but with Nynaeve around that could be topsy turvy just ask Mat (TDR). :)

[Asmo]

Another possible explanation would be that Elayne chooses bot to use it.

 

Elayne often complains how she can't make Birgitte obey even though she is bonded to her and wonders how Aes Sedai make their Warders obey all the time. She wonders whether they have them swearing oaths. If she knew there was a way to make the Warder obey through the bond, she... would have done it? Later on, she might have found out by questioning the other sisters, but she either refrained from using it because she realizes it's too much  like Compulsion (she does know Compulsion, after all), or it doesn't work on Birgitte because she's a female bonded by a female or for a thousand other possible reasons.

 

One thing is for sure, bonding a Warder isn't like Compulsion as Generic Aelfinn #2 suggested. Quite a few times several knowledgeable Forsaken express wonder over the mechanics of the bond, and if it was like Compulsion, a thing they were familiar with, they'd have figured it out in an instant.