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Graendal A forsaken that we know, but how much?


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    I was doing a rereading of The fires of Heaven and it kind of bothered me how Rahvin was putting Graendal down by how she "wastes" the power on her "pretties" how she uses them up to quick and other things.

 

    To me, I don't think so. Graendal is a very smart lady and I can't see her 'wasting' something that is beneficial. Obviously, she is still alive, unlike Rahvin, and she's not been taken over, like Moghdien, so is there more to her than meets the eye? Is she wasting, or using the power differently than it shows?

 

Your comments please...

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I believe he was talking about her servants and entertainers. They were all important and otherwise powerful people; in fact that's part of what she likes about them, making important people serve her wine and juggle. If she is going to compel a king, to Rahvin she should be using their influence to further her goals.

 

However, you're right that she's still alive and off Rand's radar, so she's doing something right.

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I go with Avery. Nothing to with the One Power. He views it as a waste that she bothers with so many entertainers etc...I see it that way too.

 

She has managed to survive. How? She is no as conspicious as Rhavin nor Sammael. She did not contact Rand in any way. She did not attempt to kill him. She did not seek him out to seduce him. She does not underestimate him and hence has avoided a direct confrontation. Lastly, Rand has no idea where she is. He hardly ever even thinks of her.

 

So, she has successfully avoided doing what all the other Forsaken did. Maybe she learnt from them, or maybe she is just intelligent. ;)

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Guest Dreadlord

Graendal is like Demandred in that we have seen very little of her, yet she may be up to things we dont know about. I think Demandreds alliance with Graendal will come to life in AMoL.

 

So far we have seen none of the Forsaken actually work together, as in cooperate. I think it would be great if Demandred and Graendal had some hidden plan that would be revealed in the next book, something big, which they succeed in. The one downfall of the Chosen is that they never work with each other. I would like this to stop being the case, especially since Moridin has been pulling them together, and I think demandred and Graendal doing something big would make up for them being hidden for so long

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I never felt that she was hidden at all. She is one of the Forsaken whom we have seen quite a bit of.

 

Mesaana, Be'lal, Demandred and Semirhage are the ones whom we hardly saw during the series.

 

(When I say 'hidden' I mean 'hidden from the reader.') I hope no one misunderstood.

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Even Moghedien, who is the most widely reputed coward and best hider among the Forsaken, has had more direct contact with the good guys than Graendal.

 

Not only is Graendal deeply hidden, she works through so many intermediaries that it's very difficult to find her fingerprints on anything that happens.  She gets my vote for biggest coward.  She just has a better PR staff than Moggy.

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One thing that bothers me is that we've never seen WHY Graendal went over to the Dark side. Everyone else had a motive, but none that I can recall for her.

 

She was a famous ascete (dixtionary: a person who leads an austerely simple life, esp. one who abstains from the normal pleasures of life or denies himself or herself material satisfaction.) - what made her turn 180 degrees?

 

Could she have been "turned"?

 

Or maybe she's the Light's Mata Hari ?  ;D

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Supposedly it had something to do with nobody meeting her standards for the kind of perfection needed to justify the benefits they enjoyed.

 

I think the rationale is supposed to go something like - "If they won't work to achieve what they could, then I'll see to it that they get what they really deserve."

 

An extreme case of "If ya can't beat 'em, join 'em."  Maybe more a real case of she lacked anything like a carrot, so she went for the biggest stick she could find.

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She figured noone could live up to the standards she lived after, which caused her to do a 180. How the DO was brought into it is a bit of a mystery though (In my book, that 180 seems rather from the DO to the Light, but...:D)

 

One things we can be quite sure of though, she was definitly not turned. She was one of the very first to jump ships, and thus there were no myrdraal around to work the turning. And quite possibly not even 13 forsaken available either.

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    Thanks to all, a note Graendal was with Sammael when he was making the Shaido Aiel do his wishes, BUT again, I don't think she was ever on his side. I don't think she's a coward either. We know she has been causing problems for the Domani (help me out if I'm wrong here) by sending the guy (Iturlude?) out to cause mischief.

    Is it cowardly to not 'seek out' Rand? If she is spreading chaos like the DO wants, she is doing her job. Staying away from Rand not only makes him underestimate her, but also doesn't show her weakness for Rand or one of his people to learn and use.

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Not precisely cowardly.

 

But, Rand isn't the only target available.  From what we see, she isn't really aiming at anybody.  She just kinda generally stirs the pot. 

 

Unrest/civil war in Shara?  Maybe an intended result, but maybe not.  No real way to tell.

 

Sly?  Certainly.  But, a hanger-on rather than a lead actor.  She'll join a gang but never start one.

 

She's simply gone from eschewing grapes to compelling others to peel them for her.  A lazy mindset in both cases.

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And in terms of keeping her off the other Forsakens' radar it's a useful tactic.  But, since none of the good guys know where she is or how she's comporting herself, how does it do her any good against them?

 

The Dark has to win ( at least to a limited extent ) before who survives the internal backstabbing has any meaning.

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i agree with Elgee's last comment and will add that Graendal is my *favorite* forsaken

 

and i'll say we have actually seen a lot of her, we see her in book 5 with Sammael, Rahvin and Lanfear. We see her in book 6 and 7 with Sammael. and then we see her actions over the next few books very dispersed, but considering book 7 to 11 could fit into the time line of book 5 or 6 we really haven't been missing her for that long.

 

I don't think she's a coward like moggy, moggy went to fight rand's cleansing saidin to just sit there. Vs Graendal who went and worked to stop him.

 

going back to what Elgee said, i think the personality of Graendal that we see now is a complete facade, she hasn't changed for the aesthetic she used to be in the slightest at least mentally.

 

I forget which book but Graendal realizes Arad domain has gotten to hot and she has to leave, she doesn't obsess how she will relocate her 'pets', she drops them like a rock. they meant nothing to her.

 

Graendal is all about pleasure and materialism (in a more human obsessed way i suppose) on the outside, but no true materialist would be willing to ditch everything they own on the whim that "oh this place might be getting a little to dangerous"

 

We've been saying how she gets people to underestimate her, i think its even aran'gar's point of view that says something like "anyone who underestimated Graendal deserved the death they got".

 

And lets not forget that Graendal is a master of the mind and the finest of manipulations, she doesn't have to compulse the way she does and doesn't even actually need to use compulsion in many cases...

 

Graendal has stayed alive this long because she used the other forsaken and manipulated them into having confrontations with Rand. She knows how powerful he is and won't underestimate him, while he on the other hand doesn't know anything of her and *will* underestimate her.

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Rand doesn't know anything about her, true... but LTT does.  Whether LTT will underestimate her ???

 

I'd say doubtful.  But, Rand will be the one in control, and he can't kill any woman, so, it doesn't really matter how she's behaved where he's concerned.

 

Graendal is, philosophically, an absolutist.  Absolute asceticism or absolute hedonism, it doesn't matter.  Both are extreme schools of thought.

 

That's why her characterization as a successful, let alone pre-eminent psychiatrist doesn't wash.  She's incapable of seeing or valuing anything other than the absolute extreme ends of the spectrum.  Where she's concerned there is no such thing as a happy medium, so how could she assist others in finding it?  Or, successfully integrating into a multi-value, multi-cultural society?

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``I forget which book but Graendal realizes Arad domain has gotten too hot and she has to leave, she doesn't obsess how she will relocate her 'pets', she drops them like a rock. they meant nothing to her.''

 

She leaves when first Moghedien and Cyndane, and then Shaidar Haran show up to deliver the DO's instruction that the remaining Chosen are to coordinate under Moridin's leadership. We don't yet know what became of her ``pets''.

 

Graendal is interesting, I think, because she has, or at least appears to have, good sense.

 

``That's why her characterization as a successful, let alone pre-eminent psychiatrist doesn't wash.  She's incapable of seeing or valuing anything other than the absolute extreme ends of the spectrum.  Where she's concerned there is no such thing as a happy medium, so how could she assist others in finding it?  Or, successfully integrating into a multi-value, multi-cultural society?''

 

An interesting argument, but I remain unconvinced. It is said that ``those who cannot do, teach''.

 

But Graendal is deceived in one regard, as Aran'gar observes. Like some of the others she would like to go back to what was before the War of the Power. E.g. her nostalgia for the Ansaline Gardens. But victory by the Dark One would mean even more drastic consequences than Aran'gar envisions: s/he thinks that social conditions will be like the present, but it will rather be the war of each against all---``and the life of Man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short''.

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