Meanwhile...

[D24g0n]

Besides, it doesn't really matter if Moiraine explicitly told Verin to meet Rand or not.  If I remember correctly, as long as you believe what you are saying is true, the oath does not stop it.  So, as long as Verin believed Moiraine even hinted at wanting her to go to Rand, she can say "Moiraine sent me." all she wants.

[RAND AL THOR]

Can you please state what that instance is? That may help to settle this.

 

In the Great Hunt, when Verin catches up with Rand, she says something along the lines of "Moiraine sent me." Later, Moiraine denies having done this this, and we KNOW Moiraine can not lie.

 

Thank you Avery,

 

I am not even going to start on this. There are at least a dozen threads on this.  ;)

[Mr Ares]

We know that Verin is bound to the First Oath. In the PoD Prologue she repeatedly has to find ways to interpret what she says as true. She wriggles around the truth like any AS, but we have never seen her lie. We have never seen either Verin or Cadsuane violate any of the Oaths. Any belief that they are unbound is purely wishful thinking and not based on anything from the books.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Maybe.

 

It seems to me, that Verin's problem was more to do with figuring out how to phrase her instructions in a way that the recipient could accept as true and thus want to obey than any problem she was having in believing anything she was saying.

 

Jordan said she and Cadsuane had both "held the oath rod."  He didn't say what they'd sworn on it.

 

Which isn't saying that I think Verin is Black.  Just that we don't know what Verin is yet.

[Kaznen]

I have a theory concerning Verin and a "hidden ajah" (not the purple Ajah) notice I said "ajah" and not "Ajah."

 

If you all ask nicely I'll post it. ;D

 

It's pretty cool.

 

Really.

 

Dates back to before the White Tower was founded.

 

Anyway....

[DemandredFO]

Is there a link to it or something or have not yet posted it.  If you haven't please post it, I might not agree but I'd be interested to see it.

[Kaznen]

Is there a link to it or something or have not yet posted it.  If you haven't please post it, I might not agree but I'd be interested to see it.

 

Not posted.  But since you asked....

 

In the BWB it talks about all the different ajahs (note the "a") at the beginning, then the seven Ajahs when all was finished.  It did say that several groups up and left during this time (and what happened to the AS who refused tower control, but that's no important) but it doesn't say that only 7 of the ajahs were left.

 

My theory is that one of the smaller ajahs, knowing they were to small for power or wouldn't be taking serioulsy enough to found their own Ajah decided to split up into the 7 but still remain a secret group.

 

The BWB said ajahs were when groups of AS banded together for a specific purpose, like the Hundred Companions, And all these ajahs at the WT founding each had a specific purpose or cause they championed.

 

The afore mentioned ajah was dedicated to waiting for the Dragon to be reborn so they could serve him, yes serve, and the Main 7 featured aspects that would be helpful for when he comes.

 

In tSR when Rand was having his Aiel flashbacks one of them was a group of AS discussing the profiecies.  They seemed to think it would be sooner then 3000+ years before he was born. (the first false dragon happened less then 500 AB I think)

 

So any way, this ajah split up into the Ajahs and would meet in secret in one of the many forgotten rooms in the basement of the WT even few years or so.  They would study the profs, find records of LTT (this was real soon after the breaking after all) and search for signs and protents.  While keeping real detailed records of what they did.

 

But, being AS they had other stuff to do as well.  And due to the super secret nature the members could only have so many in their number and they could only recruit from their own Ajah because they would know who would make the best candidates better then the others.

 

And other the years their numbers dwindled, replace a sister was not easy, and life was going on, so maybe during the Trolloc Wars the Green members were killed, the reds were killed by a false dragon, etc.  Until about 700-1000 before the current time in Randland there was only one member left, and she decided to let the ajah die.  So she locked the meeting room and lived the rest of her life.

 

Enter Verin, while exploring the basements, maybe as early as when she was a novice, she finds the secret meeting room, and all the ajahs records, as well as transcripts from their discussions.

 

Keep in mind these women would have spent 2000+ years focussing on the Dragon Reborn.  So, building on those who came before, they would have made some startling interpretations about the prof.

 

Verrin read the records, studied them, and became an AS who was alive when Rand was born.  Maybe she was planning on starting this ajah up again.

 

But that is why she seems to know so much. 

[Spirit1025]

I like it! It sounds reasonable. But perhaps the ajah didn't die out, and there are still other members? Cadsuane, maybe?

[DemandredFO]

I also like the theory, it would explain why Verin seems to know every aspect of the prophecies including the ones about Perrin and presumably Mat.  I think Cadsuane is more than she appears as well, especially considering she has ter'angreal and an angreal and she apparently won them which seems highly unusual.  Also Cadsuane said she almost had the Black Ajah but they slipped through.  Maybe Cadsuane mentor or whatever she was, was a member or something because it also seems highly unusual that someone, other than Aes Sedai would use 'greals.

[Raistlin]

I really like this theory. It would explain some odd actions by AS. I wonder if Moiraine and Suane would have also been in on this?

[DemandredFO]

I don't think so, those two had no idea what Mat and Perrin were for and moiraine thought the Foresaken city prophecy refered to Illian but I am convinced Verin would have known it meant Rhuidean and the Aiel.

[D24g0n]

I like it, it seems reasonable.

[RAND AL THOR]

Its the exact opposite of the Black Ajah.

 

I would love it if it still existed.

[benr]

Yes, it's true:  most of Verin's defenders say "she can't lie, so here is what must of happened", while us Verin suspecters say "Verin lied, so here is what must of happened".  Again, I don't think she is of the BA, but is a DF.  Can't wait for AMoL (although if I'm wrong, I may never post again...nah, I probably will).

[DemandredFO]

benr, how can Verin be a DF Aes Sedai but not Black Ajah?  Could you explain.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

benr, how can Verin be a DF Aes Sedai but not Black Ajah?  Could you explain.

 

she successfully made herself appear truly 'in the light' so no BA AS approached her...

[benr]

Verin is not working with the BA; she is working her own agenda to further the cause of the DO.  She has insinuated herself into the inner circle of the DR, able to influence events to insure that Rand gets to TG, which is the DO's major goal.  At that point, she will be able to damage the cause of the Light, so that Rand will be more vulnerable and the DO can win.  I think that the scene where she decides not to poison Cadsuane is when she decides that Caddy is not BA, whose motives she is uncertain of.  She was concerned that Caddy was trying to prevent Rand from getting to TG.  There have been many other theories as to why Verin does what she does (it is generally agrred that she acts on her own agenda, with motives not revealed); the fact that RJ said that the episode where Verin told Ingtar that Moiraine had sent her (later denied by an at least puzzled Moiraine) was not a mistake, along with a ton of other suspicious behavior, leads me to this.  None of the arguments I have seen against this episode being a lie are based on statements or events not actually from the books; they are based on suppositions of what might have happened to enable Verin to seemingly lie without actually doing so.  The simplest is often the truest.

[Mr Ares]

Verin is not working with the BA; she is working her own agenda to further the cause of the DO.  She has insinuated herself into the inner circle of the DR, able to influence events to insure that Rand gets to TG, which is the DO's major goal. At that point, she will be able to damage the cause of the Light, so that Rand will be more vulnerable and the DO can win. I think that the scene where she decides not to poison Cadsuane is when she decides that Caddy is not BA, whose motives she is uncertain of. She was concerned that Caddy was trying to prevent Rand from getting to TG.  There have been many other theories as to why Verin does what she does (it is generally agrred that she acts on her own agenda, with motives not revealed); the fact that RJ said that the episode where Verin told Ingtar that Moiraine had sent her (later denied by an at least puzzled Moiraine) was not a mistake, along with a ton of other suspicious behavior, leads me to this. None of the arguments I have seen against this episode being a lie are based on statements or events not actually from the books; they are based on suppositions of what might have happened to enable Verin to seemingly lie without actually doing so. The simplest is often the truest.

That's your idea of the simplest explanation? It's entirely your own fabrication. Aside from the evidence in the books indicating she is still bound to the Oaths, the complete lack of any evidence indicating she is unbound, except for one line which, as has been repeatedly pointed out, can easily be said within the confines of the Oaths. So she either became a DF before she joined the AS, and so when she did no-one thought to mention to the BA that she was a DF, so she didn't get recruited, or she became a DF later and still wasn't recruited, or she is working for the Shadow without actually joining up and becoming a DF. We have no evidence of any non-BA DF AS. We have seen no evidence of her doing anything to benefit the Shadow that would not also work to the greater benefit of the Light. We have never seen her express any allegiance to the Shadow. We have never seen anything like what you are proposing. What has she actually done to weaken Rand? It's utterly ridiculous. Just your own wishful thinking. That what Verin said was not a mistake does not mean it was a lie. It just means it was not a cock up on the authors part. So why don't you explain precisely why your mass of fabrication is in any way simpler than the other explanations? One thing in your theory's favour though: unlike Kaznen's "magic secret ajah that you should accept as vaguely plausible despite the utter lack of anything even approachig evidence of its existence" theory, it does at least play lip service to more facts than "Verin knows a lot of stuff" (she's a Brown. A Brown with access to Corianin Nedeal's notes. And she isn't an idiot. That explains her knowledge, and is actually supported by the books).

[benr]

Verin is convinced by her research and knowledge that the cause of the DO is the correct one (not the cause of all of the organizations, cells, BAs' etc.).  She doesn't believe in the "eternal life/power" that other DFs do (after all, we see DFs dying left and right).  She believes that Rand must reach TG so the DO can manipulate him to the DO's needs.  As with any speculation on Verin, of course it goes beyond the books - but I guess I don't find it ridiculous, just a logical progression of thoughts that explain the obviously ambiguous actions of a mysterious character.  As Bob pointed out, there are other logical ways to explain her attention to the oaths in her POVs (just as logically you can explain her lie).  No, RJs statement didn't mean that she definitely lied - it left open both possibilities, as he was wont to do.  There is meant to be uncertainty regarding Verin; those that are surely tied to the Light show us no doubt.  Verin does, so speculation as to her motives was intentional on RJ's part.  How that plays out, we shall see. 

[DemandredFO]

Shai'tan already has one Ishamael, he doesn't need another one.  Elan Morin was convinced by his research and philosophy that the DO was right.  I would soon believe Verin killed Asmodean than Verin is another Ishamael.  That last was a joke so don't start an Asmodean thread.

[benr]

Oh oh, you named the DO.  Anyways, I figure that the DO won't turn away an intelligent supporter; there is a real lack of common sense in the Forsakens' approach, and the DFs are worse.  The most dangerous enemy is the one that you don't know.

[RAND AL THOR]

Verin is not working with the BA; she is working her own agenda to further the cause of the DO.

 

Do you propose, by this, that she has told no DF that she is a DF? I get the impression that you are saying that Verin is a DF without even informing the DO. Is that it?

 

If so, what would be her motivation?

[benr]

RAND, as I said in a later post, she has determined that the DO needs to win the last battle through her research, her ciphered book holds her logic.  Is there anyone that knows what her goals and aims are?  I haven't seen any evidence one way or the other, whether she is for the Light or the Dark.  So yes, I am saying that she is working for the DO, and he/she/it may not even know it. Good call. 

[RAND AL THOR]

It is not possible for any book to lead her to the conclusion that the DO must win. The DO winning means the end of life for practically everyone. How could her research lead to that? Seems highly unlikely.

 

And if she is serving the DO without him knowing it then she too will be destroyed once he wins.

[benr]

And if she is serving the DO without him knowing it then she too will be destroyed once he wins.

 

Why?