Lan's Army

[Guest Toad]

How big an army will Lan raise?  I always thought that most of the population of Malkier was destroyed when it was betrayed - with just a few stragglers making it out.  But the way it was set-up near the end of book 11, it left open the possibility that he could gather quite a force by riding through the Borderlands.

 

To me it doesn't make sense.  Most of the the Borderlanders are in Andor.  Most of the rest are standing against some invasion from the Blight.  Where are all these other fighters going to come from.  Are they all going to be gem dealers and fur traders that will pick up the sword again?

[Bob T Dwarf]

My guess is that we need to look at the Borderlands as, militarily, like Israel.

 

If you're going to successfully hold civilization together where Trollocs could come charging around the corner at any second, you need both a standing army and a strong, universal militia.  And we do know, that in Saldaea, at least, the women consider themselves warriors as much as the men.

 

Lan is a legend in the Borderlands.  Nynaeve has seen to it that he will have a core Malkieri cadre.  Somebody will raise the Golden Crane.  Word will spread that, "The Golden Crane flies toward Tarmon Gaidon."

 

When they hear that news and see that banner and that man come riding through town, I'd guess quite a few of those militia butchers and bakers and candlestick makers will decide it's time to take that sword or pike or whatever down off the wall and join the parade.

[Guest Toad]

Yes, but the Borderland leaders have allready stripped most of the able-bodied men and marched them to Andor.  The rest have been garrisoned against a Blight invasion.  Just seems too convenient for their to be a bunch more skilled warriors for Lan to pick up...

[Bob T Dwarf]

That's the standing army.

 

The Blight Border has been very quiet.  Nothing we've seen or heard says that they called up any militia before they left.

 

It won't be a huge force, but if it's only 10,000 from each country, that's still 40,000 men.  All with basic training and needing only to sharpen up.

 

Numbers are fluid in Jordan's universe.  Some of us have tried in vain to figure out how the Blight could sustain, arm and equip the number of Trollocs and Myrddraal we've seen, let alone those waiting in reserve.

 

So, even though, everywhere we've been taken there are abandoned farms and vast areas of wilderness, my guess is that there are soldiers hiding in the walls and rafters throughout the Borderlands also.

 

IOW, the number will be whatever Sanderson needs, whether that number makes sense or not.

[Guest Toad]

I'm just hoping the number will make sense.  Wouldn't only those with roots from Malkier be following Lan.  If so, I would guess that most haven't wielded a sword since Malkier fell - how old is Lan - 40ish?  Unless it just happens that all these guys have been active in the militia while following their trades.  That would be convenient.

 

Or maybe if it is just a smaller force he gathers (say a couple hundred), they could supplement the warders in protecting Aes Sedai and Ashaman as they wield the One Power.  That seems more realistic than fielding yet one more army for the last battle.

[D24g0n]

I'm just hoping the number will make sense.  Wouldn't only those with roots from Malkier be following Lan.  If so, I would guess that most haven't wielded a sword since Malkier fell - how old is Lan - 40ish?  Unless it just happens that all these guys have been active in the militia while following their trades.  That would be convenient.

Most of the Borderlanders would follow Lan into any battle.  Many of the Borderland Leaders themselves would follow Lan, and I wouldn't be surprised if their orders to not follow Lan would be ignored by some.  Like the Aiel, almost everyone would pick up a weapon to fight without a second thought.  That is what is necessary for a culture on the edge of the Blight.

[Guest Toad]

I know it said that the Dragon would break all ties, so does this apply to Lan as one of his cohorts?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Pretty much and pretty literally, as well.

 

Rand's failure to act is what broke Lan's ties ( bond ) to Moiraine.  He's pretty well broken Elayne and Nynaeve free from being tied to the WT.

 

Big changes, they be a comin'.

[Snowy Dawn]

First and foremost, those who rally to Lan will be Malkieri. It seems clear from the passage in <i>Knife of Dreams</i> that there are more than a few of these in the Borderlands---there were many who were prepared to follow Lan at the behest of the Lady Edeyn Arrel (<i>New Spring</i>) Some will have died, but others will have male children of fighting age. Others not of Malkieri blood will no doubt join in. Remember what Lord Agelmar says to Moraine and Lan about the many who would follow if Lan raises the banner of the Golden Crane (<i>The Eye of the World</i>, Ch. 46, ``Fal Dara'', pp. 697--701, the paperback edition).

[Blackmoore]

It appears that there are more Malkeri around than we thought.  Further, the Borderlanders did NOT strip the Blight; one of them comments in their brief PoV that what they left to guard the Blight could hold short of the Trolloc Wars coming again.

 

Of course, that's exactly what's about to happen. 

 

I expect those armies to break and scatter and then the remnants to reform behind Lan. 

[DuDZiK]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that when the Borderland leaders met at their secret meeting before setting out to find Rand that one of the leaders said to another: "You didn't strip all of your land of armed men did you?" and they answered to the effect of: "I left behind enough to hold the defences short of another Trolloc Wars". This to me seems to mean that though they left with a large army, it is a large army only because they combined all of their forces together. When we heard all about their numbers versus that of Andor, I also believe that it was mentioned that if all of Andor was under one banner to fight the invading Borderlanders, they would match them in numbers or at least come close. Again, that seems to indicate to me that the Borderlanders did not take away a very high percentage of their own individual armies or trained men with them and that their large combined numbers kind of makes us blind to that.

 

As to who will follow Lan... for one I think there must be plenty of people who have mixed Malkier blood, as I'm sure there was at least a few thousand people who either escaped Malkier before it fell, were already away from it at the time, or who were already of mixed blood and living in the Borderlands or somewhere else. I'm sure Lan riding with his banner will attract alot of those sorts of people. At the same time, we were given the impression in Eye of the World that many Borderlanders, non-Malkier included, would rally to Lan if he ever raised his banner to wage war with the Blight and the forces of the Shadow. Given all of this, I don't think it will be very unbelievable for him to attract tens of thousands of men behind him, which if that comes from ALL of the borderlands is still a pretty small army when you consider that the Borderland Army in the Wetlands numbers in the hundreds of thousands, I believe (and that as I said above I think they took relatively little of their own total armed forces with them).

 

And someone will have to refresh my memory... but how many men did Lan have with him in New Spring? A few hundred, did he not? Weren't they all Malkier... and very proud/devout Malkier at that? Given Lan's usual refusal to allow many to follow him would it be so much of a stretch to assume that, if he had the promise he gave Nynaeve to ensure he won't turn away followers, he could have attracted Malkier in the thousands? That of course will depend on the actual numbers he had with him and how many of them were Malkier

[Guest Dreadlord]

Baring in mind that in Shienar aparantly every man is a warrior, which we learned in book 2, I think what was left behind is a large enough force. If every man is a warrior in Shienar and women in Saldaea fight as well, then surely things arent looking as bad as everyone on here first thought

[Guest Toad]

But if thousands or tens of thousands follow Lan to Tarwin's Gap (or wherever he is going) what's to keep the trollocs from flowing in to the other borderland countries?  After all if all the force is mustered in one spot, it makes sense for the shadow to hit elsewhere.

[Luckers]

The armies left behind by the borderland Rulers. As Dudzik states, the Rulers left behind significant forces in each of the lands--they will not be the ones who will follow Lan. For all that the Dragon breaks all bonds, they know the results of abandoning their posts, and won't. Those forces will hold their lands as they would have otherwise.

 

Those that follow Lan will be 'civillians'. Insofar as it goes in the borderlands, anyway. We are talking about men who have fought Trollocs before--all borderlanders, except the deep southerners, or those that have clung to the big cities, have fought Trollocs before. Its a fact of their life, no matter who they are. And as for how many the Golden Crane will raise--look at New Spring with how many we ready to stand at a whisper that it flew again.

 

And Bob, Saldaean women don't fight to any greater degree than any of the other women of the borderlands. Oh, the officers wives ride with the army, but theres no special intent or training in fighting there. That's not to say they wouldn't pick up a sword when push comes to shove, but the same goes accross all the borderlands.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Check the map.  Very mountainous.  Few passes.  Even fewer capable of handling large numbers of Trollocs.

 

Raids everywhere, sure.  But nothing really large scale unless those raids are successful and the raiding parties can consolidate.

 

Tarwin's Gap is maybe the only pass large enough to handle whole armies.

[Luckers]

Frankly, its a bit hard to see passes in the map Bob. Oh, Tarwin's is a huge one, which is probably why the Shadow use it so readily, but i rather doubt its the only one. We'll be seeing other incursions.

[Guest Toad]

And do gaps really matter when the foresaken can take as many trollocs as they want and just drop them wherever?

[Mr Ares]

And do gaps really matter when the foresaken can take as many trollocs as they want and just drop them wherever?

How do they manage to drop as many trollocs as they want wherever, given that Shadowspawn can't pass through Gateways?

[Guest Toad]

And do gaps really matter when the foresaken can take as many trollocs as they want and just drop them wherever?

How do they manage to drop as many trollocs as they want wherever, given that Shadowspawn can't pass through Gateways?

 

I don't know, but it was done at that estate in Tear that Rand, Cadsuane, and Nynaeve were hiding out at.  Does anyone know how all those trollocs were brought there?

[Majsju]

And do gaps really matter when the foresaken can take as many trollocs as they want and just drop them wherever?

How do they manage to drop as many trollocs as they want wherever, given that Shadowspawn can't pass through Gateways?

 

I don't know, but it was done at that estate in Tear that Rand, Cadsuane, and Nynaeve were hiding out at.  Does anyone know how all those trollocs were brought there?

 

The ways, as mentioned earlier in the book by Moridin.

[Guest Toad]

Just again proves the point that regardless of passes/gaps in the mountains a huge force of trollocs can be brought about anywhere.  Unless of course Rand's setting up of wards works better at different waygates.

[Bob T Dwarf]

But, again, a Waygate provides a Chokepoint.  IF there are any in the Borderlands, they would be guarded as well as trapped.  Doesn't take a huge force to hold a Chokepoint.

 

Waygates deeper in - those are the danger.  What forces Lan will be able to gather riding through the Borderlands would be hundreds or thousands of leagues away from those.  What attacks the Borderlands will have to come through the smaller passes.  Raiding parties.  IF those raids are successful, then the raiders can begin to concentrate.  But, the only pass large enough to disgorge a whole army ( that we know of ) is Tarwin's Gap.

 

That's where Lan is headed, so whatever he gathers will be there to face whatever comes, IF he gets there in time.

[RAND AL THOR]

Its going to look pretty dumb on Rand if any waygates are used for the attacks, considering the effort he put into avoiding just that.

[Bob T Dwarf]

It's not all up to Rand.

 

The Waygates serve stedding.  The local Elders have to agree to the trapping and the guarding.  Most have, but a few told Loial and Karldin not to try to teach gramma how to suck eggs.

[Kaznen]

Another thing about the ways, if 100 Trollocs showed up in the border lands, the borderlanders would make quick work of them.  If they showed  up in Altara, Tarabon, Murandy or Illian, were the people don't really believe in the Shadowspawn.....

 

500 soldiers would be peeing in their armor at the sight of those trollocs, while a force of 70 borderlanders could take 100 trollocs.