The One Power failing.

[Asmo]

We've seen several evidence that saidar itself is failing - disfunctional Keepings and wards in the Tower and elsewhere etc. However, we don't have similar hints that the same thing happens with saidin. One may argue that saidin is rarely used for Keepings and related purposes, so it wouldn't really be noticed, but I feel that a little too much emphasis has been placed on the saidar part if that was the case.

 

Why do you think saidar is acting like that? I feel that by misusing an abnormal amount of saidar during the Cleansing, Rand accidentally caused a malunfction in the female half of the Source. Perhaps the origins of an Age where saidar is tainted and saidin clean? That's just a hypothesis, though.

 

Thoughts?

[Mr Ares]

We have not seen evidence that saidar itself is failing, merely that some very specific things done with saidar are failing - the wards designed to keep shadoweyes out of the WT aren't doing there job, as there are rats in the walls. The keepings aren't keeping food, and this is in line with he general death and decay we see elsewhere. So, my guess is Shai'tan is bypassing these. Anything else is working fine. But He is causing food to spoil and getting rats where they were previously kept out. That's my take.

[RAND AL THOR]

There is nothing wrong with saidar. The wardings etc failing are just the failings of the weaves due to (most likely) B Ajah intervention.

 

The Power is actually much better off now without the taint.

[Asmo]

Actually, that doesn't make much sense. The Aes Sedai could check or renew the Keepings, and if a weave works, it works as it should work. However, they say the Keepings and wardings are gradually deteriorating, as if something is corrupting the One Power itself. If it was something as simple as the Black Ajah or anyone interfering with them, the Aes Sedai would have figured it out by checking for residues etc. And if they actually say there seems to be something wrong with saidar...

 

I believe it's either what I thought about the Choedan Kal's misuse corroding the female half of the Source, or maybe the Dark One affecting the world and the Pattern gradually breaking apart.

[Vemynal]

*raises hand*

 

oh oh! me me! plz!!!

 

plz oh dear god PLZ let the female half of the source be tainted like saidin was because rand used it to filter out saidin!

 

I mean, rand was said to break the world again, and all the female channelers eventually going insane would be pretty cool^^

[Guest Toad]

Then the Ashaman could hunt them down before they went crazy...

[Guest Toad]

I remember reading that there was no way to use up the source.  But then we already know that Aes Sedai don't know everything.  Is it possible that when Rand and Nynaeve channeled so much at Shadar Logoth they passed some equilibrium point and effectively pulled the plug on the 'endless' pool of the source?

[Bob T Dwarf]

This is a fantasy.  ANYTHING is possible.

 

I kinda doubt it though.  The basic premise is that Time is circular.  The Wheel turns and Ages come and pass, etc.

 

OP drives the Wheel.  If all the OP drains away, the Wheel stops.  Time goes out the window and everything happens at once.  Or nothing happens at all.  Don't think either of those things work with the basic premise.

[Guest Toad]

But if the Dark One wins Tarmon Gaidon doesn't time stop too?

[Bob T Dwarf]

The supposition is that the DO destroys the Wheel and possibly the universe and maybe, if he's feeling generous creates something more to his liking to replace it/them.

 

Whether that's what the DO would do and what that all means about Time - I've got no idea.

[Guest Toad]

Might be interesting if at the end of the last battle, the one power was used up.  First they lost space age technology (jo-cars and sho-wings), then they lose the source... and all of a sudden their world looks like ours with the start of primitive technology thanks to the academies.

[Cybertrolloc]

We've seen several evidence that saidar itself is failing - disfunctional Keepings and wards in the Tower and elsewhere etc. However, we don't have similar hints that the same thing happens with saidin. One may argue that saidin is rarely used for Keepings and related purposes, so it wouldn't really be noticed, but I feel that a little too much emphasis has been placed on the saidar part if that was the case.

It's a throw away line made by one Aes Sedai that likely doesn't understand what's probably going on (the growing influence of the DO on the world). In the two (?) books since that line we've been in many Saidar users point of view that don't mention anything along those lines.

 

So 1. Cite the original line and 2. Provide some supporting evidence. I'll also note you're drawing conclusions about Saidan when about the only point of view we have on it is Rand and some Aes Sedai commentary: these are hardly reliable as Rand is terrible at observation for the most part and the few Aes Sedai that experience Saidan are hardly experts at it.

[D24g0n]

If I remember correctly, the female Choedan Kal crumbled, but the male one was perfectly fine and Cadsuane took it.  I wonder if it could have had anything to do with that?  Why was it only the female key that broke?  That is, if there is even anything wrong with Saidar. 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Been covered in another thread.

 

Saidar had to work a lot harder to maintain the conduit than saidin did to simply be in the conduit.

[D24g0n]

Ah, thanks Bob.

[Snowy Dawn]

Cybertrolloc writeth (and erreth): ``In the two (?) books since that line we've been in many Saidar users point of view that don't mention anything along those lines.''

 

See Romanda's POV in the first paragraph of ``Call to A Sitting'', Ch. 23 of <i>Knife of Dreams</i>, for an explicit mention of saidar appearing to fail. There is also a brief reference to rats in the White Tower by Elaida in Ch. 2 of <i>Knife of Dreams</i>:

 

`The next report made her own eyebrows rise, ``Rats in the Tower?'' That was beyond serious! This should have been on top! ``Have someone check the wards, Tarna.''......'

 

(From the third full para on p. 135 in the hardcover edition.) The wards get redone, as observed in Ch. 25, ``Attending Elaida''. See KoD, page 540.

[Luckers]

Saidar is not failing. The Dark One's corruption is working on the world, it's just that its also working inspite of the wardings. Saidar remains at exactly the same strength, its just doing nothing to stop what the Dark One's doing.

 

Actually, that doesn't make much sense. The Aes Sedai could check or renew the Keepings, and if a weave works, it works as it should work. However, they say the Keepings and wardings are gradually deteriorating, as if something is corrupting the One Power itself.

 

They arn't gradually deterioting, its that the taint on things is gradual--whether warded or not. Both are effected. The Aes Sedai are checking and renewing the Keepings.

 

The Weaves work--The Dark One just bypasses them. Makes sense too, he's not reaching through the weaves, he doesn't need too, the bore is everywhere through the pattern.

[RAND AL THOR]

Sorry but can't resist-

 

If I remember correctly, the female Choedan Kal crumbled, but the male one was perfectly fine and Cadsuane took it.  I wonder if it could have had anything to do with that?  Why was it only the female key that broke?  That is, if there is even anything wrong with Saidar. 

 

I was laughing my A$$ off at this imagining Caddy walking off with a towering statue in her arms like in some cartoon. ;D

 

I'm sure you meant the key but it was amusing nonethless. ;)

[D24g0n]

Yea, I meant the key, but I wouldn't be surprised if Cadsuane did try to take the actual statue if she thought it would benefit her enough for the effort.

[Cybertrolloc]

Cybertrolloc writeth (and erreth): ``In the two (?) books since that line we've been in many Saidar users point of view that don't mention anything along those lines.''

 

See Romanda's POV in the first paragraph of ``Call to A Sitting'', Ch. 23 of <i>Knife of Dreams</i>, for an explicit mention of saidar appearing to fail. There is also a brief reference to rats in the White Tower by Elaida in Ch. 2 of <i>Knife of Dreams</i>:

 

`The next report made her own eyebrows rise, ``Rats in the Tower?'' That was beyond serious! This should have been on top! ``Have someone check the wards, Tarna.''......'

 

(From the third full para on p. 135 in the hardcover edition.) The wards get redone, as observed in Ch. 25, ``Attending Elaida''. See KoD, page 540.

I was referring to the CoT bit with Egwene. It's referenced here: http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/2_nondark/2.3_one-power/2.3.17_saidar-weak.html

[aslansrevenge]

The supposition is that the DO destroys the Wheel and possibly the universe and maybe, if he's feeling generous creates something more to his liking to replace it/them.

 

Whether that's what the DO would do and what that all means about Time - I've got no idea.

 

The Dark One Can not create, evil does not creat it take things created by the CREATOR and changes and crupts them into something else. If the Dark One winns then he/it will sit in nothingnus forever alone this is the nature of evil

[RAND AL THOR]

The supposition is that the DO destroys the Wheel and possibly the universe and maybe, if he's feeling generous creates something more to his liking to replace it/them.

 

Whether that's what the DO would do and what that all means about Time - I've got no idea.

 

The Dark One Can not create, evil does not creat it take things created by the CREATOR and changes and crupts them into something else. If the Dark One winns then he/it will sit in nothingnus forever alone this is the nature of evil

 

Create

 

What an interesting word.

 

I never considered that the DO can't actually create and it seems logical except for one prob.

 

I'm sure that trollocs and mydraal were made using humans and beasts. But weren't drakhar and golam created? I'm not sure.

[Mysterious]

They were made by Aginor (?) as well. Only 6 Gholam were ever made, 3 to look like males and 3 to look like females. He may have been crazy in making his monsters but he wasn't stupid.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Asmo]

@Cybertrolloc: I'm not sure what you mean. I mentioned saidin only to support what you yourself claim I ignored - that we don't have sufficient evidence to draw conclusions either way. As for the rest, unfortunately, I don't have internet at home currently, so I only have access from work, and it would be kind of strange if I carried the whole eleven books with me there to get the references.

 

@aslansrevenge: The Dark One has some limited power to "create" things, although I don't think he can create something from nothing like the Creator has done. The Wheel of Time does run on basic physics, after all. Then again, we can't be sure either way.

 

@Mysterious: Gholam and other Shadowspawn were made, but I doubt they were just materialized out of nowhere. See the point above.

 

@Luckers: You make good points, but I've thought about these too, and still the fact remains that Aes Sedai think that saidar itself is failing, and apparently you could make a sister joke about the Black Ajah before you could get her to talk of it. I'd think that the Aes Sedai should know, since they actually channel it. But anyway, I can as easily accept them being frightened of abnormal occurences such as rats being able to bypass wardings because of the Dark One's influence, and jumping to conclusions. Perhaps.

[aslansrevenge]

They were made by Aginor (?) as well. Only 6 Gholam were ever made, 3 to look like males and 3 to look like females. He may have been crazy in making his monsters but he wasn't stupid.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

 

yes they were made by Aginor but there were Curptions of man using the One Power twisting things made by the Creator the Dark One can not make any thing Orignal it is not in his/its power or nature.