How loyal is Shaidar Haran?

[RAND AL THOR]

I know it seems that SH must be the most loyal of all that serve the Dark, but I never stopped to consider how loyal he may be. In A Crown of Swords, there is a part where he regrets the link that forces him to return to Shayol Ghul every once in a while.

 

He specifically thinks that that link must be severed. Why would he think so, if he were 100% devoted?

Most DF don't trust each other etc...(Best example: Forsaken) but have we considered how the loyalty of SH may affect events in the last book?

 

This is not a very big deal of course but I just wanted to mention it. Small chance of SH betraying the DO indeed!

[Jehaine]

In my opinion, SH is as devoted to the DO as someone can get. The only problem he has with the link that forces him to return to Shayol Ghul is just that: It forces him to do it, and generally means he has to rely on his infighting bunch of Forsaken to get the important stuff done.

 

If the link would be severed, it'd give him the freedom he needs to oversee important projects personally regardless of how long they'll take. Nothing to do with (a lack of) devotion, just regretting the impact it has on work efficiency.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Shaidar Haran pretty clearly has the ability to think independently.

 

Like every other Dark character we see, he seems committed to riding whichever horse will carry him farthest in the direction he wants to go and no further.  So far, that horse seems to be the DO.

 

But for the future, who knows.  Nobody on the Dark side is what I'd call entirely trustworthy.  They all have their own agendas.  None are anybody I'd bet on to hold undying loyalty to anything except their own survival.

[Majsju]

Since the DO projects a part of Itself into SH, I strongly doubt there is any kind of independent personality left there.

 

As for the thoughts about needing to sever the need to return to SG every now and then, that is something that obviously is very much in the DOs interest. The projection through SH grants the DO the ability to move around in the world, and having to return to SG is obviously quite an obstacle there.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Like every other Dark character we see, he seems committed to riding whichever horse will carry him farthest in the direction he wants to go and no further.  So far, that horse seems to be the DO

UNQUOTE

 

WHAT?

 

Shaidar Haran was made by the Dark One, so as Maj said he could project a part of himself into it. Yes, Shaidar Haran can think independantly, but those independant thoughts are thoughts of the Dark. I very much doubt that Shaidar Haran COULD serve anyone other than the Dark One. He is more a creature of the Dark One than any other Shadowspawn. Shaidar Haran is the horse, and the Dark One is the rider. Not the other way round.

[maximuswynn]

As it was previously stated, Shaidar Haran is a a part of the Dark One. Having the abililty to think independently gives him some leeway. I mean the Dark One would never loosen the leash on the one thing he can DEFINITELY control. Thats a little absurd. He is the most obedient servant of the Dark, butit is my policy to always have other options, so we can never know until we read it, but that was the prominent opinion.

[ThebigeyeAm]

theres only 1 horse strong enough to bear the weight of the super myrdraal that is shaidar haran....the beast of the two rivers....the globe trotter who could jain to shame.....the head of the stable ajah.....bela

[DemandredFO]

Regarding loyalty Ishamael/Moridin is completely loyal too, even if after his conversion to the Shadow he had disloyal thoughts, which I doubt, using the True power as often as he has will have subsumed much of his will.

[Lille]

Regarding loyalty Ishamael/Moridin is completely loyal too, even if after his conversion to the Shadow he had disloyal thoughts, which I doubt, using the True power as often as he has will have subsumed much of his will.

 

Also if i have understood things correctly he is the only one of the Forsaken to really understand what the Dark One wants. The other Forsaken do what they do because they have been promised power and immortality, Ishy/Moridin does what he does because he believes in the cause, the destruction of everything. While the other forsaken only want to rule the world, he wants to destroy it :)

 

Thats why i think he is the Nae'blis and is also the one that cooperates with Shaidar Haran, hes the only one the DO can trust not to screw things up because he wants to rule another kingdom :P

[RAND AL THOR]

Since the DO projects a part of Itself into SH, I strongly doubt there is any kind of independent personality left there.

 

As for the thoughts about needing to sever the need to return to SG every now and then, that is something that obviously is very much in the DOs interest. The projection through SH grants the DO the ability to move around in the world, and having to return to SG is obviously quite an obstacle there.

 

I'm quite sure that the DO could have erased that connection if he needed it. His powers are quite large after all. He altered the entire weather of the world and the dead are walking and all food is rapidly spoiling etc...

 

It seems more like the connection keeps SH on a leash.

Of course I agree that SH is most likely the most loyal creature to the Dark.

Just imagine it coming to Egwene, kissing her ring and asking her to be her Keeper of the Chronicles! :o

[Jehaine]

If it helps, think of it like a battery of some sort. The DO can infuse it with his power so his projection can exist independantly for a while, but every once in a while those batteries need to be recharged or SH will slowly revert back to being a normal Fade. Shayol Ghul is simply the most efficient place to do the recharging in, for various reasons (thin Pattern, the DO actually being there etc.)

[RAND AL THOR]

I seem to get the impression that people are suggesting that Shaidar Haran is a projection of the DO and hence has no mind of his own.

 

That makes little sense since then there would be no need for SH to lead the Forsaken to the Pit of Doom to hear the DO's words.

 

My view:

SH is an independant being. He was created by the DO and is his Lieautenant but independant all the same.

[Majsju]

I seem to get the impression that people are suggesting that Shaidar Haran is a projection of the DO and hence has no mind of his own.

 

That makes little sense since then there would be no need for SH to lead the Forsaken to the Pit of Doom to hear the DO's words.

 

My view:

SH is an independant being. He was created by the DO and is his Lieautenant but independant all the same.

 

The DO projecting a shadowy form of Itself into SH (which is the confirmed case) is quite different from SH being a projection of the DO.

The DO is always present in SH, and I can not really see the DO being satisfied by just riding along quietly in a comfy corner of SHs mind.

 

As for SH taking people to SG in order to hear the DOs words, one of the themes that has been there for the entire series is the treatment of information. There is no reason for the DO to want the forsaken to have any knowledge about how that connection actually works, but quite a few reasons to keep the connection a secret. The DO is after all not exactly the most trusting character in the books, and while It is present inside SH at all times, It does not have anywhere near Its full powers.

[Bob T Dwarf]

How do you get that the DO is present in SH at all times?

 

Some of the time certainly, but at ALL times?  No.  He's more than a hollow shell.

 

Whether he resents having to carry the DO around piggy-back some of the time is the question.  Whether he'll actually do anything to break free ???

[Cockta]

Maybe SH is bonded to the DO, as Warders are? So SH always has the DO in his head. That was just a thought.

[Majsju]

WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?

 

Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. Its as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature,it is the Dark One in shadowy form.

 

WinespringBrother: Is it twenty four seven, or just part time.

 

Jordan: Twenty four seven

 

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9921/t/Dragon-Con-Book-Signing-Reports.html

[Bob T Dwarf]

OK, then.  It's 24/7

[Snowy Dawn]

``SH is an independant being. He was created by the DO and is his Lieutenant but independant all the same.''

 

SH to Mesaana: ``You were summoned, and you did not come. My hand reaches far, Mesaana''. (CT, Ch. 21, ``A Mark'', pp. 517, hardcover edition). [Note: Alviarin is convinced that Shadar Haran is a manifestation of the Dark One, as the development of this scene makes clear.] The use, by SH, of the personal pronoun ``My'', in ``My hand'' suggests that SH takes the ``My'' literally: that SH is an extension of the Dark One rather than an independent being. ``The Dark One in shadowy form'' in the quote from RJ kindly provided by Majsju.

 

I for my part am not quite sure what to make of this, but with the seals weakening and the DO able to touch the world at least as far as the weather goes, and also the spoiling meat and failing wards, &c. mentioned in <i>Knife of Dreams</i>, it does not seem to me unreasonable to take ``Hand of the Shadow'' fairly literally.

[anthonyelayne]

Not a huge Faim fan but maybe everything the DO creates after fain is tainted by him Half and Half just like Rands Wound.

[Dedicated Santana]

Like all DF Shaidar Haran is only loyal as long as his self interests and self preservation are being provided.  Givin a chance, one that he would have to know that he could win, he would act to better either one of those aspects.  Going back to his link, he detests it because it's his weakness, a link he has to obey, something that controls him, and like all DF, he would rather be in control, not controlled.  Would u settle for being the hand of the DO or the DO himself, some might speculate that Shaidar Haran is the manifestation of the DO, but a manifestation with a mind of it's own.  So, is Shaidar Haran 100% loyal, NO, since no DF can guarantee the safety, let alone keep the promises the make, i think it's safe to say that they all act for themselves and nobody else, no matter the allegiances or loyalties

[Ashaman Kovan]

Yeah i'm pretty sure that SH is the DO's avatar. The only way he can take some kind or corporeal form. So the fact the he wants to sever the link binding him to SG, I think makes it pretty obvious that he just want free reign and to not have this weakness that makes him have to leave possible in the middle of something important.

[RAND AL THOR]

That interview given by Majsju makes it more or less clear now that SH is indeed as loyal to the DO as possible (since the DO is present in him in a way).

 

But Alviarin's thoughts are not relevant here I would say. She immediately considered SH to be the DO because he overuled Messana and in her opinion only the DO may do that.

 

I was not aware of that interview when starting this thread. Thank You Majsju.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Guys the RJ quote above specifically states that Shaidar is NOT the Dark Ones avatar. RJ said it himself.

 

As for Shaidar Haran not being loyal, you are way missing the point. RJ said Shaidar Haran is the Dark One in shadowy form. I'll say it again, Shaidar Haran IS the Dark One, in shadowy form. The question, is Shaidar Haran loyal, is not even a valid question; its like saying is the Dark One loyal to himself?

[Mr Ares]

Guys the RJ quote above specifically states that Shaidar is NOT the Dark Ones avatar. RJ said it himself.

That depends entirely on whether or not you agree with RJ's use of the term "avatar". If you don't think it necessary for an avatar to have all the same powers as the original, then the term avatar suffices.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The question wasn't whether or not SH is any kind of avatar for the DO.

 

The question was - How loyal is he?

 

The answer is unclear.

 

As of Book 2 we have Baalzy telling DF's to watch but do not harm.

 

In Book 3 we have SH ordering Carridin to find and kill Rand immediately, while Ishy/Baalz is still alive and supposedly top dog.  That order, and the consequences for Carridin's failure to carry it out persist at least until Carridin's death in Book 8.

 

In Book 5, while Demandred is temporarily top dog, he says the DO's "words exact" are "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule", ie. get on with our plans and leave Rand to his.

 

Once Moridin appears and becomes Nae'blis, his orders still are to keep hands off - until - Book 11, when they become kill Mat and Perrin immediately, but only kill Rand if absolutely necessary.

 

So, who really speaks with the DO's voice?  Ishy/Baalzy/Moridin and Demandred, or Shaidar Haran?  Because the two groups are saying diametrically opposite things.