Rand and Balefire

[zerachiel76]

I was wondering what would happen if Rand was somehow Balefired. What would happen if LTT's soul was permanently removed from the Pattern by Balefire.

 

This raises an interesting point (to me anyway), somewhere in the earlier books it says that the Pattern "called" for the Dragon which is why Taim, then Logain and finally Rand all appeared in quick succession. Once Rand arrived then the Pattern's call had been answered and then no more false dragons would declare themselves.

 

Now does this say that all or some of Randtime is predetermined by the Pattern, or does the Pattern simply respond to actions by the DO? If so, is the Pattern another name for the Creator or a servant of the Creator, or a tool of the Creator, or to put it another way could the Pattern be a "Windows" operating system for Randworld where the DO and Forsaken are hackers and viruses attempting to bring it under their control?

 

So going back to my original point, if Rand/LTT was somehow balefired, I wonder would the Pattern then produce another hero to replace him, or would the Pattern (if the Pattern isn't the Creator) unravel destroying all? Would the Creator allow the Pattern to be destroyed and if so is Randworld simply one of his/her projects and the Creator would simply move onto another world.

 

Personally, I think the Pattern is more likely to be the Operating System model for the Creator wherebye it remotely controls the overall actions of the world using the Pattern, but like in a computer things can go wrong, files can be corrupted or permanently deleted (by balefire). If this happens does the Creator have a backup or does it create a new file (soul) from scratch to fill Rand/LTT's role? Again I think he would create a new one as new souls are created reasonably regularly as not all souls are reborn (I think). That way Randworld isn't simply destroyed and the Pattern doesn't unravel completely.

 

What does everyone think?

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

There's legitimate confusion about what the effect of balefire really is.

 

So far as I can tell, balefire doesn't ( to use your analogy ) delete any files completely.  It works more like an operating system crash.  You lose what is in the currently open window, but not what has already been saved to disk.

[Cockta]

And some people here have sued a little too much time thinking about the systems and workprocess of the computer  :D

[havoc110]

I think we stand a pretty good chance of finding out in AMoL.

[SqueeEGA]

I imagine that if Rand were balefired that the pattern would unravel.  think about all the threads that swirl around him.  Without the point of swirl a lot of tension would be released, and unraveling would occur.

 

I would agree that the wheel is much like an OS, but certainly not windows...its not that buggy. 

[Mysterious]

I imagine that if Rand were balefired that the pattern would unravel.  think about all the threads that swirl around him.  Without the point of swirl a lot of tension would be released, and unraveling would occur.

 

I would agree that the wheel is much like an OS, but certainly not windows...its not that buggy. 

 

I agree as well that if Rand was balefired the pattern would unravel. I think of Rand as the source code. Every time that the Dark One corrupts the pattern, the pattern brings in the 'source code' and matches the rest code against it. If it doesn't mesh, get rid of it.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[balefireruinssteaks]

I think Rand needs to seriously stop using Balefire.

 

He is so stupid sometimes.  He has been warned what the effects of Balefire does and the dangers, and KNOWS that EVERYONE stopped using it during the War of Power, but he continually just fires it off whenever he wants to.

 

Sometimes I have very little sympathy for Rand when things like hand-cut-off or put-in-a-box happens.  He seriously needs to learn a little humility.

[MystErikEry]

Balefire doesn't prevent someone from being reborn as the normal course of events - the wheel of time is just that, a wheel, and all souls will be rewoven and reborn into it.

 

It's just that balefire kills someone before any entity who is bound by the laws of time (ie even the Dark Lord Himself, as he says, who cannot step outside of time) can interfere or soul-snag...  Which is why balefire prevents the Forsaken from simply being transmigrated into new bodies, it seems.

[RAND AL THOR]

Rand balefired? Pattern unravels and world gets detroyed. End of story.

[maximuswynn]

I love this topic! Ok let's go. We know that the Dark One can't jump out of time to save the Chosen killed irrevocably by Balefire. Everyone in the Age of Legends and so far believe that Balefire corrupts the Pattern, destroys anything it touches permanently. However, things were destroyed in the Age of Legends by Balefire right? Right. Look at this though, just because a city was destroyed by it doesn't mean it can't be rebuilt, therefore I believe that if Rand was ever Balefired he would be killed irrevocably, but the Creator who has some control over the Pattern would bring forth a new hero, a Champion of the Light. Of course I'm speculating here, no one really knows except "you know who", but hopefully A Memory of Light will shed some light on this question.

[RAND AL THOR]

But before the Creator has any chance to do any such thing, we need the world to EXIST.

 

Rand has affected the whole of Randlan. The Pattern weaves around him. Snapping his thread is going to seriously damage the Pattern and if the balefire is strong enough to undo several of his most important acts, the Pattern may never recover from the inflicted damage.

[Luckers]

Firstly, balefire does not destroy the soul--it destroys the body backwards in time, which means the soul is freed from that body at an earlier timepoint, and thus beyond the Dark One's ability to recycle, but it does not damage the soul itself.

 

If Rand were balefired it would be just the same as if he died, merely including the loss of events that had done in the period removed from the pattern via the balefire. It would not unravel the pattern--not unless the balefire were strong enough to unravel the pattern anyway, in which case it doesn't matter if it were aimed at Rand or at a frog.

 

Rand dead, the pattern would weave on. The last battle would probably be lost, so its pretty dire, but nothing specific beyond that.

 

Rand has affected the whole of Randlan. The Pattern weaves around him. Snapping his thread is going to seriously damage the Pattern and if the balefire is strong enough to undo several of his most important acts, the Pattern may never recover from the inflicted damage.

 

Your thinking on a human political level--think on a quantum level, the removement of quarks, atoms--the effects on causlity--these things will be what rips the pattern apart, not because Rand didn't conquer Illian. If balefire of a significant enough degree to tear the pattern appart is used, then it doesn't matter who it is used on.

[RAND AL THOR]

If balefire of a significant enough degree to tear the pattern appart is used, then it doesn't matter who it is used on.

 

If a farmer is killed by balefire strong enough to erase his thread back to birth, the Pattern is not likely to unravel.

 

If the same happened to Rand, it most certainly would.

[Luckers]

You repeat yourself without addressing the issue. If matter is being erased from reality than the quantum effects would be much more relevant than the human social effects--atoms erased from reality, quarks, the effects of their masses on other local masses. The effect they had on the flow of air during that time, breathing, moving. The effect the sudden absense of their masses on the world, in air, in gravity, in the electromagnetic waves that touched them, or radiated from them. The universe exists in a closed state--everything influencing everything else on quantum level--no matter what is removed, it effects the world, be it ruler, peasent or pebble.

 

So no, mate. A farmer erased would be no more important than Rand erased, and no less important either.

 

Now, that aside...

 

If a farmer is killed by balefire strong enough to erase his thread back to birth, the Pattern is not likely to unravel.

 

Yes, it would. Rand at his strongest removes no more than fifteen minutes from the pattern. The type of strength needed to remove a man's entire life from the pattern would unravel it, whether he be Rand, a farmer or indeed--not a man at all. A blade of grass removed for the length of a mans life would achieve the same effect.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I find it very hard to believe that Rands maxed out balefire would only remove 15 minutes worth. I would expect that of a normal strength channeler, and obviously Rand doesnt fall into that bracket.

[maximuswynn]

Balefire is feared even by the Dark One it destroys everything it touches, not only matter, but even souls. Lives are the threads of the Pattern, balefire just burns them away....completely. It would be disastrous if Rand died. Some say that in past ages the Dark One was the victor. Who the hell said that? He would have broken the Wheel and be done with it. Obviously the Light alaways found a capable champion to bring the world back to the light and to prosperity. If the world continues it's only because the light won. If the dark won even once, well, that would be the end of it.

[Ashaman Kovan]

I find it very hard to believe that Rands maxed out balefire would only remove 15 minutes worth. I would expect that of a normal strength channeler, and obviously Rand doesnt fall into that bracket.

 

Look at what happened when the darkhound bit mat. Rand used balefire without even knowing exactly what it was. For all we know he could have made that lets see....Idk a quarter of how strong he could make it. And still mat suffered the effects of the bite. To a much lesser degree yeah but it still effected him.

 

Then when he Balefired Rhavin. I'm pretty sure he put no kind of restraint on it that time and yet everyone remembered lord Gaebril, None of the things Morgase did while she was being controlled be him were reversed. And yet Morgase had pretty much JUST ran away and escaped like what that day? Day before maybe? And no huge changes in any of the memories of any andorans or anything.

 

So yeah...I think luckers estimation that rand can only erase about 15 minutes worth of history is pretty accurate. Without RJ saying it straight out I think thats a good a estimation as we're likely to get.

[RAND AL THOR]

Luckers:

 

The Pattern is not just made of atoms.

The lives of people are weaved by the Wheel into the Pattern.

 

You seem to think that only the elimination of matter would cause the unravelling the Pattern but it is not so.

The lives of people, the events of the world all constitute the Pattern.

 

Rand has changed a hell of a lot in the world. If his thread is burned back, several of his actions would need to be unmade by the Wheel. Those actions may have been on so great a scale that the Wheel cannot repair the pattern and everything unravells.

 

What you say cannot apply to WOT perfectly since the events of the world and lives of people are also part of the Pattern, not just the molecules that constitute them.

[Mysterious]

This thread could be more easily answered by a philosopher or a theologist.

 

Balefire affects the soul. It affects time itself. I do not believe that the science we use today can answer effectively what would happen if balefire is used upon an inanimate object, let alone a person.

 

The most I seem to understand of what balefire does is that it unmakes the object that it hits. Now if this is true then balefire is anathema to matter i.e. life.

 

If Rand i.e. the Dragon Soul, was hit by balefire and became unmade, I do not believe the Pattern could handle that because of the nature of the Dragon.

 

RJ himself said that the Dragon when reincarnated was a man, but what about the soul?

 

We know that a person hit by balefire has his/her soul ripped out of the pattern e.g. Dark One can't get Rahvin back.

 

So we get back to the nature of the Dragon. The Dragon regardless of the person it currently exhibits to the world i.e. Lews Therin, Rand al'Thor, was made for a specific purpose. That purpose was to herald to the world that the current age was ending, fight the Dark One, reseal the Bore and safely tranisition humanity to the next age.

 

Now if the Dragon can not fulfill its purpose or has its actions unmade, no matter how great or small, what are the ramifications? I think we can safely say that it would not be good. We know in this incarnation, thanks to the Karetheon Cycle (Dragon Prohpecies), that the Dragon's actions are managed relatively closely. That is to say: Action A must be followed By Action B otherwise you and the world is screwed.

 

Now I believe that should The Dragon aka Rand is balefired then the pattern would unravel and the Wheel would shatter. I don't have the evidence to back this statement up because a) I don't understand balefire and b) the information I scoured mentioning balefire just mentions that if enough of it is used then the pattern unravels.

 

To defend my POV I'll say that due to the nature of the Dragon and its purpose, as well as the inherent dangers of balefire, that the unravelling of the patter would be most likely guaranteed.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

 

[Silver]

I have to agree with Lurkers. Balefire does not destroy the soul, it destroys the body in the past, which releases the soul in the past. And since it's in the past, the DO can't just wait around to retrieve it.

 

About the Wheel unraveling, I can understand Lurker's POV on a farmer = the Dragon Reborn. Everybody has influenced everybody they've met in their life, and even some they haven't met. If his life never existed, the threads of those he's interacted with unravel, and if they unravel, then the people those people interacted with unravel. It's like a snowball effect. With Rand, since he's Ta'varen, he's influenced many more people but that just might mean the unraveling is "quicker".

 

As for the Wheel shattering, I'm not sure it even matters. The world will still exist and people will live their lives (if the DO hasn't won). I've always thought of the Pattern like the tapestry of lives woven by the 3 Fates.

[D24g0n]

I have to agree with Luckers and Silver.  I think it would take a significantly less amount of bale fire to unravel the pattern if it hit Rand as compared to a farmer, because Rand's daily interactions generally impact the world, while the farmer's probably don't.  However, I think that hitting anyone with enough bale fire would also unravel the pattern, even if it is someone as insignificant as a farmer.  It isn't too uncommon for a farmer to not see anybody for days or weeks, but Rand sees and changes a lot of people every day.  So bale fire strong enough to go back an entire day would probably not unravel the pattern if it hit the farmer, but it most definitely would if it hit Rand.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Look at what happened when the darkhound bit mat. Rand used balefire without even knowing exactly what it was. For all we know he could have made that lets see....Idk a quarter of how strong he could make it. And still mat suffered the effects of the bite. To a much lesser degree yeah but it still effected him.

 

Then when he Balefired Rhavin. I'm pretty sure he put no kind of restraint on it that time and yet everyone remembered lord Gaebril, None of the things Morgase did while she was being controlled be him were reversed. And yet Morgase had pretty much JUST ran away and escaped like what that day? Day before maybe? And no huge changes in any of the memories of any andorans or anything.

UNQUOTE

 

Balefire doesnt remove memory, it only removes the actions. Thats why everyone still remembers Gaebril. If balefire erased peoples memory then Rand wouldnt remember killing or even fighting Rahvin.

 

When Rand fought Rahvin, obviously we all know Rahvin killed Asmo Mat and Avi before the fight. Youre telling me that Rand and Rahvin ran around blowing the palace/whatever apart for less than 15 minutes? I know a timescale wasnt given but I got the impression that that fight went on for longer than 15 minutes.

[Mr Ares]

I have to agree with Luckers and Silver. I think it would take a significantly less amount of bale fire to unravel the pattern if it hit Rand as compared to a farmer, because Rand's daily interactions generally impact the world, while the farmer's probably don't.

If matter is being erased from reality than the quantum effects would be much more relevant than the human social effects...The universe exists in a closed state--everything influencing everything else on quantum level--no matter what is removed' date=' it effects the world, be it ruler, peasent or pebble....A farmer erased would be no more important than Rand erased, and no less important either.[/quote']So...are you agreeing with Luckers or not? Luckers's point was that the human level doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how many people the farmer meets or how many Rand meets. It's irrelevant on a quantum level.

[Bob T Dwarf]

But does the quantum level even matter?

 

The Wheel turns and Ages come and pass...

 

World without end, amen.

 

Yet seasons come and go.  Leaves turn, fall, and decay.  Things wear out.  People and all other lifeforms die.  So, in some sense, matter breaks down.  Yet, there is always more ore to be mined and refined.  The sun never fails.  Things persist.

 

In order for all of that to be true, the energetic and useful forms of matter must also be being continually created.  The only way things can fail is if somehow mankind destroys matter faster than it gets created.

 

I dunno about you, but between a couple thousand people blasting everything with balefire and the Creator cranking out new stuff all the time, I know which guy I've got my money on.

[D24g0n]

So...are you agreeing with Luckers or not? Luckers's point was that the human level doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how many people the farmer meets or how many Rand meets. It's irrelevant on a quantum level.

 

Sorry, I didn't clearly state what I was agreeing with.  I was agreeing with Luckers opinion on what bale fire destroys, the same as what Silver was agreeing with.

 

I have to agree with Lurkers. Balefire does not destroy the soul, it destroys the body in the past, which releases the soul in the past. And since it's in the past, the DO can't just wait around to retrieve it.