The future of Men in WOT

[zerachiel76]

Now Rand has enabled men's suffrage to happen against the greates resistance of most of the women in the world there, I wonder what does the future hold for them.

 

Will the laws in Far Madding change to enable men to own property?

Will the laws in Ebou Dar be changed to no longer allow the murder of men by women with little recourse to justice?

etc etc for the cities

 

Will the Asha'man be allowed to live in peace and in some cases (Narishma, Logain, Flinn and another one I can't remember) be hailed as heroes?

 

Or will men just continue to be slaves (warders), packages animals (warders), assassins, bodyguards (warders), servants (warders) and cannon fodder (soldiers) to the women of Randland which is all they are now. See my thoughts on warders there, basically they're brainwashed slaves (I find it ironically hilarious when the Ashaman teach the AS what it's like to be bonded)

 

RJ said somewhere he wanted to write Randland as a mirror image of our world. In our world it's generally accepted that one of the first big steps in Women's suffrage in western europe and America was WW1 when women worked in the factories and in the fields and took over from men in these industries.

 

Basically it took a huge war and upheaval for this change to happen. I wonder if the TG will do the same and bring men equal rights as a reward for doing most of the dying (as men seem to in Randland)? If one looks at it, LTT and the male AS had equal rights before the sealing of the bore and it was only the sealing that ultimately seemed to plunge men into 3000 years of slavery and serfdom.

 

I really hope so, as one of the best things that comes out of the WOT in my opinion, is the lessons that when the Ashaman and AS work together (when they cleanse Saidin) they're the most powerful. So rather than fight against each other the men and women worked AS EQUALS (well almost as the Ashaman were bonded but I don't think Ashaman will ever be brainwashed slaves like normal warders as their powers seem to stop a lot of the compelling the AS normally use on their warders). This is unlike the AS ordering their cannon fodder soldiers and slave warders. Look what they accomplished, another things no-one thought possible. I think RJ's message is a great one for everyone.

 

To quote someone else on the forum now:

 

/steps off soapbox <-- awesome saying so I'm borrowing it. © someone else on here :D

[Guest Dreadlord]

The reason why male channelers are hated so much all boils down to Latra Posae Decume. If she hadnt stopped the female Aes Sedai from going to Shayol Ghul with lews Therin, they would have been successful I reckon.

 

How many men were there at the Cleansing? How many women? I would say less then 50, perhaps even less than 25, and they managed to undo something the Dark One himself did. Imagine if 100 male channelers and 100 female channelers, all of Age of Legend strength, went to Shayol Ghul with Lews Therin. i doubt the Dark One could have tainted Saidin if that had been the case. But of course its all speculation and not really relevant at this point.

 

But I doubt men will become equal to women ever in WoT, it seems to be one of the ongoing things that never ceases to annoy me about it. Of course women know better, anyone who thinks otherwise just proves their point, right? Pff!

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

Imagine if 100 male channelers and 100 female channelers, all of Age of Legend strength, went to Shayol Ghul with Lews Therin.

 

um...it would have STILL [by a HUGE degree] been less OP used than at the cleansing..

[DemandredFO]

Men will gradually get more rights and respect but look at it from the real world perspective.  Women have gained rights over the years but yet they aren't equal and there a still people that believe a woman's place is in the home and that they should be neither seen nor heard.  I just want to say that I AM NOT one of those people.

[bjclinton]

Imagine if 100 male channelers and 100 female channelers, all of Age of Legend strength, went to Shayol Ghul with Lews Therin.

 

um...it would have STILL [by a HUGE degree] been less OP used than at the cleansing..

 

.....or the female half could have been tainted as well...or the Prison could have been smashed wide open because they may have done things just differently enough to make things different than what they ended up doing.

[Luckers]

200 channelers hardly represent a massive power. Latra's actions were at worst obstinately destructive, and at best saved saidar from being tainted. And she certainly can't be blamed for the gender inbalance that occured as a result--that sort of thing takes centuries in the making.

 

The balance will slowly reasurt itself--likely it will actually skew to the opposite, to the male side, much the same as how third wing feminism has in our own society. There is always a pendulum effect whenever great social change occurs. Once is settles down though hopefully things will be pretty even.

[Cockta]

Well, I hope things get better for men in the entire world (WoT). Is there actually a name for the planet where they all live?

 

I also don't hope it won't be oppiste, where men are the dominant. The best is equal, and I'll stick with it.

[Mysterious]

I think we just call the entire world Randland as well as the Continent he's fighting on. I think we should make our own terms for the WoT world. How about Randland for the world? I think Westland or The Wetlands for the continent? Since the other continents have their own names we could take the Aiel name for the continent.

 

Most likely the society will become more male skewed because of the Black Tower.

 

The White Tower is too isolated from the rest of society and the other channeler organisations won't accept their authority easily. The three oaths are also a major handicap for the Aes Sedai. The Black Tower has a major advantage in this aspect and they will be the only channeler organisation for men.

 

The Black Tower also most likely be able to come to an accommodation with the Aiel. Both are militant societies and the only concessions need on the Black Tower's part is the issue of handling swords and some accommdations to Ji'e'toh.

 

If the Black Tower can come up with similar accommodations with the other female channeler organisations they'll have a serious upperhand againt the WT.

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

 

 

 

 

[Mr Ares]

Is there actually a name for the planet where they all live?

Officially? It's our world, past and future, so Earth. Unofficially, like fan names? Randland, of course.

 

Now Rand has enabled men's suffrage to happen against the greates resistance of most of the women in the world there, I wonder what does the future hold for them.

Suffrage refers to the right to vote. Most of the countries are not democracies. Which countries specifically deny men the vote?

 

Or will men just continue to be slaves (warders), packages animals (warders), assassins, bodyguards (warders), servants (warders) and cannon fodder (soldiers) to the women of Randland which is all they are now. See my thoughts on warders there, basically they're brainwashed slaves (I find it ironically hilarious when the Ashaman teach the AS what it's like to be bonded)

All they are now? Did you forget rulers, as well? Or merchants, or tradesmen? I don't think your view of Warders is particularly accurate, either. Not to mention that the soldiers are more than just cannon fodder (or the somewhat picky point that it's quite difficult to be cannon fodder when there aren't any cannons for them to be fed to). Look at it this way: Cairhien has a King at the start of the series. As does Amadicia (although he's subservient to Niall - but Niall was a man last time I checked (I leave it to others to make a more thorough check, though)) and Tarabon (sharing power with a female Panarch - equality, or division of responsibility seems to be the order of the day) and Arad Doman and Illian and Ghealdan (succeeded by three Queens, but all were subservient to a man (Masema) until Alliandre swore fealty to Perrin (also a man, unless anyone wants to take the opportunity for a Faile has emasculated Perrin joke)) and Murandy and Arafel and Shienar (Malkier as well, while I'm at it). That's quite a lot of male rulers for a place where men are slaves, pack animals, assassins, bodyguards, servants and cannon arrow fodder. While there may be a gender imbalance in favour of the women I disagree that it is as severe as you try to make out ("3,000 years of slavery and serfdom", wasn't it?). Also, where do innkeepers, or traders like Domon, peddlers like Fain, blacksmiths and so on fit in to your list?

[Cockta]

Well, you can clearly see that many women look upon men as annoying, but somethijng they can't live without. Hmmmm, where have I heard that proverb before, only slightly different?

[bjclinton]

Well, I hope things get better for men in the entire world (WoT). Is there actually a name for the planet where they all live?

 

I think it was in book 9....unfortunately i can't remember even who said it, but i'm 101% positive that one character says Earth....something to the effect of "How on Earth..." or "What on Earth..."

 

They're on the 3rd Rock from the Sun. A better question than where would be when  ;D

[Darth_Andrea]

RJ said somewhere (can't remember where) that WoT is a age or two before ours. The events of their time are what our myths and legends are based from and the events of our age is what their myths and legends are based from.

 

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]   

[zerachiel76]

Mr Ares in answer to your points:

 

I'm not certain about specifically the right to vote but I'm fairly certain Men in Far Madding have little or no rights at all, men cannot be king in Andor, all they can be is First Sword which sounds to me like a personal bodyguard (there is a quote in LOC I think about Gawyn reading his sword bitterly which sums up to me all First Sword is. In the other countries I accept that there are Kings but these are relatively powerless figureheads. In addition I'm sure the King does very little ruling and it's done by those nobles below them. However I accept your point about the Panarch although again they're just figureheads and Niall is the true exception being very powerful, although I'd rather Niall didn't have any power as the CoL are as bad, blind and prejudiced as any AS.

 

You are quite correct about the word suffrage meaning to vote, however I used it in this context to mean men's rights to be involved in any system of government.

 

In answer to your point about innkeepers, if you check all the books I'd say 80% of them are women. Traders I'd agree seem to be men but there aren't a lot of them mentioned, mainly Domon. Trader's have little or no power or prestige. Peddlers have no power or prestige (apart from with the Aiel) at all so I don't understand the point you're making about them being a good job choice for men? Blacksmiths are respected as craftsmen along with most other craftsmen and craftswomen but again I fail to see the point you're making. You can have slave blacksmiths or slave craftsmen of any type.

 

I agree about the arrow fodder, I was using cannon fodder as a specific term relative to our society but in Randworld they would be arrow fodder.

 

I don't see why you disagree with my point about Warders. They are blatantly under some form of mind control (see the compulsion topic elsewhere on this forum about the mind control failing to work on Men holding Saidin and in LoC when the AS ask Allana (sp?) why she doesn't simply order Rand what to do), why would Allana need to order Rand about if the warders weren't controlled in some way by the bond and expected to do what they're told almost like automatons. Lan seems to be the only warder that ever broke this compulsion, possibly as Moiraine didn't like using it on him. The funniest thing is to me is when people do disagree with the AS their warders like good obedient doggies start growling at the person doing the disagreeing, even if that person is Rand!!

 

I still feel that most men have only a few options which don't involves dying in Randworld before Rand arrived whereas Rand is slowly shattering all the systems of government and I hope this will bring about more equality. I don't want to see the White Tower shattered, I just want to see the Black Tower raised to equal prestige. Artur Hawkwing seemd to have a much better system of government wherebye people were raised on merit not gender and his empire worked very well. The Seanchan are another matter however. Come on Rand, smash all the governments and introduce a similar meritocracy.

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares in answer to your points:

 

I'm not certain about specifically the right to vote but I'm fairly certain Men in Far Madding have little or no rights at all,

Far Madding is one small city state. Hardly representative of the plight of men across the entire continent, is it?

men cannot be king in Andor, all they can be is First Sword which sounds to me like a personal bodyguard (there is a quote in LOC I think about Gawyn reading his sword bitterly which sums up to me all First Sword is).

Men can't be King in one country? Wow, real oppression that. They can be anything else, First Prince of the Sword, Prince Consort (and Taringail, as Prince Consort, held not inconsiderable de facto power). The First Prince of the Sword is a bit more than just a bodyguard. He commands the Queen's armies, IIRC. Gareth Bryne is Morgase's FP, and I'm not convinced she would get one of the great captains to be a bodyguard when his skills would be best served in another capacity. Also, would you say Catholics have a bad deal in the UK, given that they are disbarred from the throne?

In the other countries I accept that there are Kings but these are relatively powerless figureheads.

What evidence do you have for that? There is no reason to believe that most of the kings in the series are "relatively powerless figureheads", and even for those that are it is blatantly wrong to imply that men are not empowered in those Kingdoms. Illian's King has his power checked by the Council of Nine and the Assemblage, but the only members of the Council we know of are men, and we don't know anything about the Assemblage really, but there is nothing to support them being a mostly or entirely female organisation. Two third of the legs of the ruling triad are male, at least. Wow, aren't men in a bad way. What about the two Borderland nations ruled by Kings? What reason do we have to suppose that they are just figureheads? Cairhien is notable for its House politics. But at the start of the series the most powerful person in the kingdom is the king (man) and the next is Barthanes Damodred (man). We see no evidence here of men being in a bad way.

In addition I'm sure the King does very little ruling and it's done by those nobles below them.

Why do you believe the King does "very little ruling"? He can't do everything, obviously, but I would imagine he actually does a fair bit. And his nobles and people in appointed positions would have to take on some of the duties....but there is nothing stopping these positions being filled largely or entirely by men (except in Far Madding, according to the author the only true matriarchy in the series). So men devolving power to men, devolving power to men, and so on. They really need to do something about this! Mens Lib! They should burn their jockstraps! Seriously, where is this massive inequality? It's just not there, outside Far Madding.

However I accept your point about the Panarch although again they're just figureheads

The King and Panarch in Tarabon are not just mere figureheads, they are figure with powers in their own rights. Are you going to say thatthe people at the heads of powerful companies are mere figureheads, because some of the duties are done by people lower down the hierarchy? How about Generals in armies being figureheads, because they need colonels and majors and lieutenants and sergeants and privates?

and Niall is the true exception being very powerful, although I'd rather Niall didn't have any power as the CoL are as bad, blind and prejudiced as any AS.

Oh, but I'm sure Niall does very little ruling, and it's all done by Lords Captain below him.....

 

You are quite correct about the word suffrage meaning to vote, however I used it in this context to mean men's rights to be involved in any system of government.

Ah. You were using it wrongly. Men can be involved in the governance of almost any country, usually they are permitted at the highest levels of the government. To claim otherwise is wrong.

 

In answer to your point about innkeepers, if you check all the books I'd say 80% of them are women. Traders I'd agree seem to be men but there aren't a lot of them mentioned, mainly Domon. Trader's have little or no power or prestige. Peddlers have no power or prestige (apart from with the Aiel) at all so I don't understand the point you're making about them being a good job choice for men? Blacksmiths are respected as craftsmen along with most other craftsmen and craftswomen but again I fail to see the point you're making. You can have slave blacksmiths or slave craftsmen of any type.

You can't in the Westlands, as no country permits slavery. However, all these people have the right to choose to do whatever they want. That is the point. Some countries have greater social mobility than others (Tear, for example, has the nobles on top, everyone else beneath, and never the twain shall meet. Tear is a good example of male rulers as well - we know of only three ladies compared to a string of men, and almost all of the High Lords in the series are men - one or two of the women we know of are that high. So where's the discrimination against men in Tear?). As far as "80%" of the innkeepers we meet being women...I doubt it. Bran al'Vere, to start with. In Aringill, Baerlon, Basel Gill in Caemlyn and Hake in Four Kings, Market Sheran, Whitebridge and two unnamed Andoran villages...that's just Andor, but not a female innkeeper in sight. I don't deny that there are female innkeepers, but it seems to me that it is more likely the ratio of innkeepers seen in the books is tilted in favour of the men, if anything. My point was not so much about "power and prestige", although men can certainly get that if they want, and many men have it in the series, but about choice - men can choose to do any number of jobs. They can be at the bottom or the top. They are not second class citizens, Far Madding excepted. Plus, merchants can often be very rich (and probably gain a reasonable amount of power off the back of that money), and men can be merchants. They can trade, they can make money, there is nothing preventing there being a WoT equivalent of Sir Alan Sugar, for example. Where is this gender inequality? On a continent wide scale it seems to break down fairly evenly for the most part, although women may have a slight edge.

 

I agree about the arrow fodder, I was using cannon fodder as a specific term relative to our society but in Randworld they would be arrow fodder.

Or trolloc fodder if they're Borderlanders.

 

I don't see why you disagree with my point about Warders. They are blatantly under some form of mind control (see the compulsion topic elsewhere on this forum about the mind control failing to work on Men holding Saidin and in LoC when the AS ask Allana (sp?) why she doesn't simply order Rand what to do), why would Allana need to order Rand about if the warders weren't controlled in some way by the bond and expected to do what they're told almost like automatons. Lan seems to be the only warder that ever broke this compulsion, possibly as Moiraine didn't like using it on him. The funniest thing is to me is when people do disagree with the AS their warders like good obedient doggies start growling at the person doing the disagreeing, even if that person is Rand!!

I am well aware of the ability of Aes Sedai to compel their Warders. I am also well aware that just because they can it doesn't mean they do. The Warders are bodyguards, and that is the job they sigh up for. Compelling a Warder constantly is frowned on. Not to mention that it is not advisable to have someone with the job of guarding your back who only does so because you make him do it, you force him every step of the way (in fact, that's why the AS stopped forcibly Bonding in the first place. Expedience>morality, apparently). And did the attempt to control Elyas fail, then? He ran away. Why didn't his Sister just compel him to come back and be gentled? Warders have free will (at least, they have as much free will as anyone, but lets not start debating how much that is). They don't have to follow their Aes Sedai around...of course, it's not exactly good news if the person you're supposed to be protecting dies, and worse for a Warder. I haven't seen any evidence of mind control. At least, not on a regular basis.

 

I still feel that most men have only a few options which don't involves dying in Randworld before Rand arrived whereas Rand is slowly shattering all the systems of government and I hope this will bring about more equality. I don't want to see the White Tower shattered, I just want to see the Black Tower raised to equal prestige. Artur Hawkwing seemd to have a much better system of government wherebye people were raised on merit not gender and his empire worked very well. The Seanchan are another matter however. Come on Rand, smash all the governments and introduce a similar meritocracy.

No-one has any option that doesn't lead to dying. Death comes to us all in the end. But options they have aplenty. They can choose from a wide variety of career paths. They can go anywhere and do anything! Also, why do you think Hawkwing had a meritocracy? And what's so great about what he did in terms of government, given that his empire tore itself apart upon his death, and reduced the world to barbarism (which is still infinitely preferable to reducing the world to barberism)?

[RAND AL THOR]

RJ said somewhere (can't remember where) that WoT is a age or two before ours. The events of their time are what our myths and legends are based from and the events of our age is what their myths and legends are based from.

 

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]     

 

Can someone direct me to the DO then so that I may swear the oats and become a DF?

 

QUOTE

 

And did the attempt to control Elyas fail, then? He ran away. Why didn't his Sister just compel him to come back and be gentled?

 

UNQUOTE

 

I wasn't aware that Elyas could channel.

[Mr Ares]

And did the attempt to control Elyas fail, then? He ran away. Why didn't his Sister just compel him to come back and be gentled?

I wasn't aware that Elyas could channel.

He can't. But when his eyes went all yellow the Reds decided to gentle him. Which wouldn't have done anything, but he objected anyway. And ran off. Klling some Warders in the process. Despite the fact that Warders apparently spend their time in a state of near constant compulsion....

[balefireruinssteaks]

I don't think Aes Sedai consider what they do to Warders the same as Compulsion, though they are clearly aware of it since the Aes Sedai Warders are disgusted that they are being compelled by the bond from the Asha'man.

 

Also, sending 200 channelers to Shayol Goul was not the plan, it was a smaller circle comprised of the most powerful channelers who were specifically Talented in various ways.  The circle would more likely have been 6 or 7 men and 7 or 8 women, as it is more direct and focused.

[Lille]

The compulsion used in the warder bond (now im going on speculation that it is similar for men and women) is something that is added to the weave. Logain says when he bonds his Aes Sedai "I could have done without that extra bit" or something very like it. And im pretty sure its far from the norm for Aes Sedai to include this in their bond.

[Mysterious]

No-one has any option that doesn't lead to dying. Death comes to us all in the end. But options they have aplenty. They can choose from a wide variety of career paths. They can go anywhere and do anything! Also, why do you think Hawkwing had a meritocracy? And what's so great about what he did in terms of government, given that his empire tore itself apart upon his death, and reduced the world to barbarism (which is still infinitely preferable to reducing the world to barberism)?

 

Ishmael, the nobles and (I'm not sure) the White Tower tore apart the Empire.

 

Aside from events surrounding Tar Valon (recorded later), the next twenty-three years were largely peaceful, notwithstanding nine recorded revolts during that time. Though several of those were quite widespread, apparently none gained any degree of popular support. They grew exclusively among the disgruntled nobility of the conquered lands, and most collapsed as soon as Hawkwing sent forces to deal with them, at least one before those forces even arrived.

 

And yes it was a Meritocracy. It didn't matter if you were a commoner or noble all that mattered was your ability. They were promoted and demoted according to merit.

 

And if Hawkwing promoted on merit, he demoted on the same basis. He had small tolerance for incompetence and none for malfeasance or misuse of office; whatever their ancestry, officials guilty of the first were removed immediately, while those guilty of the second often found themselves dragged away bodily, sentenced to periods of hard labor—a common fate for felons at the time, as opposed to imprisonment—and their estates and titles declared forfeit. As bad or worse from the point of view of the nobility, he also abrogated the special privileges that they claimed in various lands. Everyone stood equal in the face of the High King’s law.

 

Some other interesting tidbits:

 

The legal system under Hawkwing is largely lost to the record, but it is known that he established schools which trained judges and advocates in the law, and that everyone, high and low, had the right to an advocate in appearing before a panel of judges, which sat in threes, and a jury selected from the census rolls. Which meant of course, that nobles could find themselves being tried not by their peers, but before judges and jury who were all commoners. Judges and advocates apparently never served in one place for more than six years, and were held to a strict code of ethics. There was also a system for appealing the verdict of a court, with the final appeal being to Hawkwing himself. And that is all that is known of what most historians agree was the most elaborate and finely regulated judicial system the world has ever seen, one in which it was quite possible for a farmer to gain judgment against a former king if the facts were on his side.

 

That “a maiden could ride alone and decked with jewels from one end of Hawkwing’s kingdom to the other without fear of harm” has been repeated so often that it has become a cliche, yet it appears to have been very nearly the truth. Hawkwing created a Civil Guard—by the evidence well trained, well disciplined, and held to a strict code of conduct—which not only policed cities and larger towns, but also patrolled the roads. Small parties of what were apparently called “circuit rovers” (the term is not capitalized in the two sources available) rode a regular pattern of patrol between even the smallest villages

 

When Hawkwing died all of his blood was systematically wiped out and those who could keep the Empire together was assassinated by Ishmael.

 

partial manuscript (private collection in Andor), dated some twenty-three years after Hawkwing’s death, builds on these shaky facts. According to the writer, within days of Hawkwing’s demise Moerad was advising Marithelle Camaelaine. When she was assassinated, he supposedly began advising Norodim Nosokawa (again within days), and immediately after Nosokawa’s death in battle, Moerad appeared at Elfraed Guitama’s side. As these three came the closest to seizing the whole of Hawkwing’s empire in the twenty years after his death, Moerad obviously either was an advisor of great skill or a man with a keen eye for a winner. How these things are supposed to tie into responsibility for Hawkwing turning against Aes Sedai is unfortunately among the missing portions of the manuscript. An odd note: The writer claims that Moerad never aged from the day he first appeared to the day he vanished, abruptly, some forty years later. What that says of the source’s veracity is left to the reader.

 

Thus the life of Artur Hawkwing, Artur the High King. What might he have accomplished had he not turned against the Aes Sedai? The unification of the entire world? It has been suggested that had he not expended so much energy against Tar Valon, he might have launched his invasions of Seanchan and Shara sooner, and that with his personal involvement the Shara and Seanchan expeditions would never have been lost. At whose feet do we lay the blame? Hawkwing? Bonwhin? Persons whose names are lost forever in the mists of history? Some account him a failure because what he built did not survive him, but if so, it was failure such as other men dream of achieving. Few successes achieve a tenth part so much.

 

 

 

 

 

Mysterious

[Mr Ares]

The compulsion used in the warder bond (now im going on speculation that it is similar for men and women) is something that is added to the weave. Logain says when he bonds his Aes Sedai "I could have done without that extra bit" or something very like it. And im pretty sure its far from the norm for Aes Sedai to include this in their bond.

I think it more likely that the compulsive aspects of the Warder Bond are present in all cases, but not used in all cases. The Bond used by the Asha'man is different, and the compulsive aspects are added in that case.

 

I don't think Aes Sedai consider what they do to Warders the same as Compulsion, though they are clearly aware of it since the Aes Sedai Warders are disgusted that they are being compelled by the bond from the Asha'man.

Considering that compulsion is forbidden, I doubt they consider what they do to becompulsion either. That said, there really isn't any difference. Typical AS behaviour, really.

 

Ishmael, the nobles and (I'm not sure) the White Tower tore apart the Empire.

Still constitutes a failure on his part to put down solid foundations for his empire. If he had managed that, maybe Ishamael wouldn't have been able to destroy civilisation. Again. I had forgotten some of those things you had posted. Like the the ones about Hawkwing promoting based on merit, obviously. That said, I was and am more inclined to think of it as a Dictatorship, albeit a benevolent one, not that this is incompatible with meritocracy (Napoloeon, for example, has been considered a benevolent dictator, and also promoted based on merit. Or on the basis of people being friends and family members).

 

Even More Mysterious....

[maximuswynn]

As far as Ebou Dar is concerned, you see the male citizens are ok with their general policy. However who could day if they really like that?!In general though it really does go back to Latra Posae Decume. Of course that has only to do with channelers and warders. The rest of the world as far as genderal relations are concerned shouldn't have been influenced, which emplies there customs were always as such.

[BIGRED]

This is my first time posting and I’m relatively new to the world of WOT. I have read all 11 books in the past two months and I can say that I’m addicted… lol This post caught my attention for a few reasons and I’m going to share my thoughts about the men and women of WOT. I am not saying that I understand RJ or anything in those regards, but I do share several things in common with him. Born and raised in the Two Rivers… The Ashley and Cooper rivers of Charleston, SC. We both wear the Band of Gold as graduates of The Citadel. The Citadel and the City of Charleston bring about certain values in a man or woman. Those who take it to heart such as I believe RJ did and myself are Southern Gentlemen. Things are different here. We do things on our own terms and our own time. We believe in treating women with respect and we are taught how to show that respect. We realize that women are usually right even though we may disagree. We practice chivalry and we know that we don’t want to get mixed up in a woman’s business. I once a heard a saying… “Behind every great man, There is an even greater women.” Anyone who has found that woman knows it to be true, just RJ found Harriet. I don’t see it how some do. Regardless of equal rights and such forth a man should stand up for what he believes, place himself in harms way to protect a woman, and do so with great conviction. RJ constantly talks about DUTY. A Citadel man or now woman understands the true value of honor and the necessity for perseverance. But, we must have something worth protecting and fighting for. Rand has 3 great women behind him in order to make him become great. In my opinion RJ is simply giving proper respect to women and telling the God’s honest truth about how life really is. Everyman and woman on here knows it’s true if they only take the time to think about it.

[Mysterious]

Well said.

[tallasse]

I can't remember if this is accurate, but I seem to remember reading RJ saying that he tried to envision a world without the inherent patriarchy of ours. 

 

There doesn't seem to be any particular imbalance in the gender roles in Randland... some countries have female rulers, some countries male.  In some countries women are the political leaders, in others men.  There are female soldiers as well as male.  In some nations women are the traders and landowners, in others it's the men while the women support them in the background. The great champions for both the Light and Dark are fairly evenly split among male and female.  Among channelers, there is clearly a gender bias, but there is an obvious reason for it.

 

I think the fact that you interpret women having opportunities and power on the same scale as men, as "slavery," "serfdom," and various other forms of misandry, is an interesting comment on the ingrained patriarchal attitudes of the world we live in rather more than it is about the World of the Wheel.

[Dedicated Santana]

ur talking about woman who have power (and have been the only power for 100s of years), who rebuilt the world after the breaking, who hunted down men who could channel and driven insane by the taint, and yet you wonder why the world in general bow to the will of women.  don't get me wrong, when Asha'man started bonding reds it was the greatest feeling in the world, but with the rise of the BT, our will and our voice as men will be heard..............some day  ;D