The Bodyswap Theory

[Roxinos]

I disagree. All are of decidedly unimportant stature to him. He is the evil counterpart to the Creator. Infinitly more "important" than any puny human. Death and destruction to everything the Creator has ever made. That's what the dark one stands for. Humans are not even worthy as entertainment. Insignificant as they are.

 

*shrug* I'm not going to bother trying to understand the Great Lord's thoughts. RJ himself said that he's not human, so he doesn't think like a human.

 

Also, I can highlight special words in quotes too:

 

The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation.

 

Because Ba'alzamon obviously want to crush the wheel (when he pretends to be the dark one in front of Rand). And to slay the great serpent. End to creation. Ultimate destruction of everything. That's want he wants really really much

 

Uh-huh. Again, destruction of the Wheel does not mean the end of creation. It means the end of Time. The Age Lace will still exist. It'll just stop being woven. As far as I'm aware, there's nothing to suggest that the Great Lord merely wants to destroy time and be done with it. And there's certainly nothing to suggest that's what Ishamael wants.

 

By all Third Ager accounts, the end of the Wheel is the end of time. According to AoLers, who know a hell of a lot more about this type of thing, the Great Lord would destroy the Wheel and then manipulate the Age lace himself. If he couldnt do this, why do the AoLers, the clever ones, think he can?

 

You do realize that you just agreed with me, right? Well, of course you do. You've been agreeing with me all of this time. The only thing I asked from YOU, Jethro, is to explain why you believe the destruction of the Wheel would be the end of circular time forcing time into a linear progression.

 

Technically not, since time would still exist for the Shadow, but without the Wheel to guide it.

 

What? Time would still exist for the Shadow? What does that even mean? Do you mean that those who follow the Great Lord will continue to follow in time, but those who don't won't? Do you mean "the Shadow" as merely the Great Lord, so the Great Lord will continue on but time won't?

 

Get this straight, the Wheel of Time is not just a representation of the circular nature of time. It allows for the progression of time period. If the Wheel is destroyed, then there is nothing to weave the Pattern, and time simply STOPS.

[Nightstrike]

Tor Questions - Aug. 04 to Jan 05

 

Questions from August 17th, 2004 - January 25th, 2005:

Week 1 Question: The Dark One has promised his followers immortality and power above all others on the Day of Return. In previous interviews you have said that this is within his power. My question is, will he? I mean, he doesn't seem very loyal or trustworthy to me. If (Light forbid) he breaks free, will he remember the "little people" or just destroy all the puny humans when he remakes the world in his own image?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: That's the big question for the Forsaken, isn't it. Can they trust the Dark One? You're right; he isn't very trustworthy or loyal. Greed leads people to believe strange things, to excuse the most abhorrent behavior on their parts-just check out the nightly news for confirmation-and at the root, that is what motivates the Forsaken and, in truth, most Darkfriends. Greed for power, greed for immortality. That makes them believe, because they want to believe. So will he grant these things? Maybe. After all, he gains more willing followers, more eager followers, if he is seen to give rewards. But will he care whether he has any followers at all in a world where he is all-powerful? Flip a coin and check which way the wind is blowing. Maybe you can find the answer there.

 

No, I don't think there will be anything left of humanity. The Forsaken are fools for believing the DO. All except ishy/moridin, but he's completely insane.

 

 

 

[Roxinos]

*shrug* I admit the point. I just do not think that one necessarily leads to the other. He doesn't care does not equal he will destroy all of humanity and be done with it.

[Alghar Khan]

This is from the guide about Ishamael:

He called for the complete destruction of the old order - indeed, the complete destruction of everything.

and a little later (also Ishamael):

Further evidence of this possibility comes from recent accounts by those who claim to have seen Ishamael before his death. He is said there to have forgotten his true name, and to be more than half-mad and less than half-human, a condition which could be at least partially accounted for by Aran's theory.

 

If the body-swap occurs, would Rand be the one seeing saa? Or did that follow Ba'alzamon's soul into Moridin's body. I guess it follows the soul, since (IIRC) the saa only comes from long-term use of the true power. Ba'alzamon's body still missed his eyes, right? Maybe the missing eyes were from him being "not quite" sealed in the bore.

 

[Roxinos]

I actually just learned recently that holes where the eyes and mouth should be replaced by cavernous pits of fire is the ultimate end to using the True Power. The saa is the beginning.

[Jethro]

If the body-swap occurs, would Rand be the one seeing saa? Or did that follow Ba'alzamon's soul into Moridin's body

 

My guess is that the saa only affect the eyes of the current body. I think if Rand and Moridin were to switch bodies, then Rand would see the saa because Moridin has channeled enough True Power to have the saa on that body. I think Moridin, in Rands body, would only see the saa if he continued to channel enough True Power in Rands body for the saa to turn up. Of course, its speculation so Ares will flay me if he sees this post.

[Mr Ares]

My guess is that the saa only affect the eyes of the current body. I think if Rand and Moridin were to switch bodies, then Rand would see the saa because Moridin has channeled enough True Power to have the saa on that body. I think Moridin, in Rands body, would only see the saa if he continued to channel enough True Power in Rands body for the saa to turn up. Of course, its speculation so Ares will flay me if he sees this post.

Actually, given that Moridin did not have the accumalated saa Ishamael had, and was starting from scratch, we can be fairly sure that in the event of a body swap the saa will stay with the body, not move with the soul. I can flay you anyway, if you like?

[MikeRiley]

You do realize that you just agreed with me, right? Well, of course you do. You've been agreeing with me all of this time. The only thing I asked from YOU, Jethro, is to explain why you believe the destruction of the Wheel would be the end of circular time forcing time into a linear progression.

 

I think the idea there is that if the Dark One wins, the bore can't be unmade and he won't be resealed in his prison in order to be bored free in a later age. So the cycle would stop cycling that series of events. We don't know if the Dragon would be reborn in a later age anyway, assuming the Dark One has the ability to swipe his soul though I would say he probably wouldn't. We would find that the world grows stagnant and unchanging, what people that are left (the forsaken included) would grow dull and focus completely on tradition, changing nothing. Everything would be in a state of decay. If any of you have read Louis L'Amour's book Haunted Mesa, it deals with that other world that the Anasazi supposedly returned to, which was this way where time essentially stopped.

[Roxinos]

I think the idea there is that if the Dark One wins, the bore can't be unmade and he won't be resealed in his prison in order to be bored free in a later age. So the cycle would stop cycling that series of events.

 

See, that makes more sense. Except, it does not negate circular time. It just means that the cycle will change to some other cycle.

 

And it doesn't answer my question anyway. Why would the Wheel's destruction force time into a linear progression rather than a circular one?

[Gentled Ben]

Because it is the Wheel that causes the circular nature of time--it keeps it going in a cycle. If the Wheel is broken, then time becomes linear.

[Roxinos]

No. It is the Wheel that produces TIME IN GENERAL.

 

The Wheel weaves the Pattern. Without the Wheel, there is no more time. Not just circular time.

[Gentled Ben]

Time will not cease if the Wheel is broken, as events will continue to occur, they simply will not repeat themselves in a cycle. Time is not a function of the Wheel, but its circular nature is. The Pattern is not time, nor is the age lace. Time is a fundamental quantity, like distance. The Wheel is a construct that makes sense of things in accordance with the Creator's wishes (ie, the Age Lace)and perpetuates them in such a way that they form a repeating cycle. If the Wheel is broken, there will be no more ages, because there will be no Wheel to bring those ages back around again, but time will still exist; it will simply march forward from that point on. Also, I can read normal point font just fine.

[Roxinos]

And what evidence do you have to suggest that "time is not a function of the Wheel, but its circular nature is."?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Time will not cease if the Wheel is broken, as events will continue to occur, they simply will not repeat themselves in a cycle.

 

Out of curiosity, is that just your opinion, or do you have something from the text to back it up?  Because Ishamael sure thinks that the Dark One is going to destroy time itself.  I'm with Roxinos here, a complete victory for the Dark would result in Chaos, in which time, as a fundamental quantity, would cease to exist.  As would distance, depth, etc.  The world that I think the Dark One wants is fundamentally different than the one the Creator made, down to the very laws of existence/physics.  And yes, that is just my opinion.

[Gentled Ben]

It's just my opinion, although I guess the series *is* called the Wheel of Time.  :P

It seems that the Wheel weaves lives and events--it weaves things that exist in time, and it weaves them over and over again, creating a...Pattern...which over time, becomes the Age Lace. It seems to me that the Pattern exists within time, but is not time, and the Wheel, being tasked with the Pattern, does not create time, but only the Pattern.

 

Since the Pattern is a repeating one, with a warp and woof, as Moiraine said, when she was explaining good and evil and the relative indifference of the Wheel to either (to Perrin in TDR), if the Wheel were broken, then events would begin to occur without fitting into a Pattern--they would unfold for the first, or perhaps final time, in a line rather than a circle. If you break a loom while it's weaving a rug, it will no longer weave the rug, but time will still exist for however much rug had already been woven, and that's essentially the image that I have in my mind.

[Roxinos]

It seems that the Wheel weaves lives and events--it weaves things that exist in time, and it weaves them over and over again, creating a...Pattern...which over time, becomes the Age Lace. It seems to me that the Pattern exists within time, but is not time, and the Wheel, being tasked with the Pattern, does not create time, but only the Pattern.

 

Hmph, misperception. The Wheel is time. The Pattern is made of the lives of people; threads. The threads are woven by the Wheel into the Pattern. Without the Wheel weaving the Pattern, there is no Pattern. There is no time. There is only what was. There can never be what will be. No lives will ever be woven together again.

[Gentled Ben]

There cannot be what was without time.  ;)

EDIT: Without the Wheel, what was will never be again, but what will be, will still be.

 

What I see the Wheel weaving is times, Ages, not time itself. If the DO breaks the Wheel, there will be no further repetition, and events are free to unfold as he sees fit to guide them, like Jethro said.

 

[Roxinos]

How can the Pattern be woven if the Wheel does not weave it? If the Pattern is not woven, then there is no time. There is "what was" because the Pattern has already been woven in the past.

[Gentled Ben]

The Pattern will not be woven any longer; that is the point. That's what the DO wants, is to destroy the Pattern. he wil lmake his own Pattern, or perhaps his own lack of Pattern, chaos, like RAW said.

 

There can be no past without time, Roxinos. How can you measure past, without time? Without time, there is only now.

[Roxinos]

I'm not saying that time as a construct or as a concept will be destroyed. I'm saying time as a progression will be destroyed. There will be no more progression. Circular or otherwise.

 

And if there is no Pattern being woven, then there is no more future time, linear or otherwise. Simple as that. You cannot believe that the Wheel being destroyed will lead to linear time if you acknowledge that the Wheel being destroyed means the Pattern stops being woven.

 

The idea that the Great Lord makes his own Pattern is that he WEAVES THE PATTERN. That's what I said originally. He makes the Pattern in his own image. To shape the lives and destiny of the people. He may not choose to continue the circular nature of time, that's his prerogative. If it is like RAW said, then there is no time at all, circular or otherwise, because the Great Lord destroys the Wheel and then walks away from the Pattern.

 

Either way, the destruction of the Wheel means the destruction of progressive time unless the Great Lord intervenes and continues the weaving of the Pattern himself.

[MikeRiley]

Maybe man will be able to choose his own destiny with the Wheel stopped? The Wheel just kept things in a pattern. With the Wheel weaving a pattern out of everything and correcting stuff to keep a balance between good and evil, the Dark One can't win. He is going to lose every time the cycle comes back to this point - like Moghedien's repeating nightmare after she was mindtrapped - until the Wheel itself is destroyed along with that balance between good and evil that the wheel kept in place.

[Jethro]

My guess is that the saa only affect the eyes of the current body. I think if Rand and Moridin were to switch bodies, then Rand would see the saa because Moridin has channeled enough True Power to have the saa on that body. I think Moridin, in Rands body, would only see the saa if he continued to channel enough True Power in Rands body for the saa to turn up. Of course, its speculation so Ares will flay me if he sees this post.

Actually, given that Moridin did not have the accumalated saa Ishamael had, and was starting from scratch, we can be fairly sure that in the event of a body swap the saa will stay with the body, not move with the soul. I can flay you anyway, if you like?

 

Wow that has to be the first time you've agreed with me on something. And I dont mean the flaying

[Thor]

There are only 2 possible explanations.

 

1.

Destroying the wheel makes time linear.  This is heavily implied by RJ;s comment that he prefers linear time (our time).

 

2.

Destroying the wheel allows the DO to remake the wheel in his image and imprison the Creator.  The creator then becomes the next wheel's DO.

[ROB_88]

There are only 2 possible explanations.

 

1.

Destroying the wheel makes time linear.  This is heavily implied by RJ;s comment that he prefers linear time (our time).

 

2.

Destroying the wheel allows the DO to remake the wheel in his image and imprison the Creator.  The creator then becomes the next wheel's DO.

 

no that is not the only possibilites.

i think that The Dark Lord is just fed up with being trapped all this time and he seeks Nirvana for himself and in conjunction the world by destroying it all. end the very fabric of space-time once and for all

[Gentled Ben]

Maybe man will be able to choose his own destiny with the Wheel stopped? The Wheel just kept things in a pattern. With the Wheel weaving a pattern out of everything and correcting stuff to keep a balance between good and evil, the Dark One can't win. He is going to lose every time the cycle comes back to this point - like Moghedien's repeating nightmare after she was mindtrapped - until the Wheel itself is destroyed along with that balance between good and evil that the wheel kept in place.

 

Exactly. I think lives will continue, and events will continue, but not according to the Wheel's Pattern, and certainly not in a cyclical nature, such that ages come back around again.