The Bodyswap Theory

[Nightstrike]

For the record, let me say that there is enough ambiguity to argue either way about the relative effort needed to cut off "larger" flows of the Power.  I was incorrect in stating that there was not. 

Not much ambiguity. Larger flow=harder to cut.

 

But what is not ambiguous at all is that in every case we have recorded, the person defending him or herself always weaves something to prevent the shield from cutting them off from the Source.  So, the relative difficulty is ultimately moot.

No. The saidin/saidar flow at the cleaning didn't need any additional weaves. Relative difficulty is not moot.

 

Drawing more of the Power may make shielding/severing more difficult, but is not, by itself, sufficient to stop someone trying to cut someone off from the Source.  It just gives you more time and strength to respond, by weaving a defense.  Which would be why none of the Forsaken tried it at the cleansing, etc.  Thor claimed that "There is however very strong evidence that drawing on the power more strongly protects you from being severed."  That is not so.  Drawing more Power may give you time to defend yourself, but does NOT protect you by itself.  You still have to weave something, and in the Stone, against Ba'alzamon, Rand did not.

He said "more strongly". He didn't say that it was enough in itself. But, at the cleansing it seemed to be enough in itself. They used the strongest sa'angreal ever made. The flow would most likely already have reached Shadar Logoth before they could cut into the flow deep enough to do any damage. Seems clear cut to me.

 

(As a side note: Something can be just as easy to cut through, effort wise, and still take longer because of its relative size.  That would make it "harder" by making it take longer, not necessarily increasing the effort needed.  But we're limited here by using physical terms to describe a non-physical process, which does make it ambiguous.)

You know, it's called a "flow" for a reason. It is a flow, not a twig or a trunk. Makes all the difference, especially at the cleansing.

 

Also, the Kari al'Thor bit seems pretty clear ... if she was a fake like the others, why didn't she disappear when the fake Egwene and Nynaeve did?  Why did she thank Rand and still call him son after she was freed from Ba'alzamon?  I simply don't see any reason to doubt her identity in the text.

It's pretty clear that it wasn't Kari al'Thor. Why would she be freed of Ba'alzamon? And something already made can stay a while, especially if the "victims" are inexperienced with T'a'r. My example would be the Sisters from the Rebel camp/Salidar that almost ended in a cook pot. Rand had every reason to hold on to the image of his mother. The cook pot Sister had not. We have precedent. Clear cut case.

 

 

 

[Roxinos]

Also, the Kari al'Thor bit seems pretty clear

 

No, it's not clear. See the quote below.

 

It's pretty clear that it wasn't Kari al'Thor.

 

No, it's not clear. See the quote above.

 

That's what I've been trying to say regarding the matter. There is enough ambiguity and enough questions that are raised on both sides with no objective source from RJ himself or any other reliable source like RJ that determines the validity of either opinion. Stop saying it is clear cut. You can have your opinion one way or the other, I'm fine with that, but stop making it seem that the other person is just so plainly wrong.

[Nightstrike]

I just reread that part in T'a'r (end of EotW). I was 99.999% sure before. Now I'm 100.0000000000000% sure. It wasn't Kari al'Thor. I recalled Kari's image staying after Ba'alzamon got hurt. That was not the case. She disappeared when Rand touched the myrdraal with the tip of his OP sword. That makes it clear that it wasn't her soul he saw. Would the DO's hold on her soul have diminished because he slew some Myrdraal? No, it wouldn't. What would have been the chance of her being a darkfriend, anyway? Ten percent? Five? Even less?

 

 

 

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK.  We disagree.

[Roxinos]

Would the DO's hold on her soul have diminished because he slew some Myrdraal? No, it wouldn't. What would have been the chance of her being a darkfriend, anyway? Ten percent? Five? Even less?

 

*sigh* What makes you so certain? It wasn't so simple as Rand touching the Myrddraal which was torturing Kari with his OP sword and then the vision vanishing. He drew on the Power, a beam shot from his sword to the Myrddraal creating a blinding flash of light obscuring Kari and the Myrddraal from vision. The Myrddraal was destroyed, and before he could see the vision of Kari again, she thanked him for saving her.

 

Again, if it were just a conjuration created by Ba'alzamon, why would it thank Rand? If it were just something conjured by Ishamael, why would the vision cease once he destroyed the Myrddraal? Because he wants it to? If it was the power of Tel'aran'rhiod which Ba'alzamon used to create the vision of Kari, and Rand was influencing the visions with his will, why would his lack of knowledge of the World of Dreams beat Ishamael's knowledge? Why would his will be stronger than Ishamael's? Why would Rand merely thinking that his actions saved Kari destroy the vision?

 

Ba'alzamon is no doubt stronger than Rand in every aspect at this point in the series. Why would he let go of Kari at all? Certainly the fact that it vanished proved to Rand, if nothing else, that the Dark One's control and power is limited and thus destroys Ishamael's efforts at throwing Rand's morale and psyche off balance. If Kari was just a vision created by Ishamael in the World of Dreams to throw Rand off balance and to threaten him, then why would Ishamael let go of it at all? Even if Rand was powerful enough to thrust the conjuration of his mother away, then why would Ishamael leave it gone? Why wouldn't he just immediately recall it, laugh, and say, "See? She is not free. Nothing you can do can save her from the Great Lord." I'd imagine that would mess with Rand's head quite significantly instead of giving him a morale boost by letting the vision of Kari al'Thor fade.

 

So yes, questions.

[Gentled Ben]

Well first off, Yay! RAW is still alive and well! If no one else will greet you and applaud your return, I certainly will.  :)

 

Second, you've brought up some really thought-provoking ideas. I especially like the way you correlate your theory with Birgitte's experience, whereby Nyn was unable to Heal her, but the Warder bond saved her life. I would not have thought of the Warder bond in terms of tying someone more closely to the Wheel via the Power that turns it, and I think that's a great idea.

 

As far as drawing on the Power and shielding is concerned, I am surprised that no- one has mentioned Verin's attempt to shield Graendal at the cleansing. It does not appear as if Graendal began channeling until after the shield bounced, although it is likely that she was already holding the Power. Verin's attempt was surely a good one, as we know from her POV that she knew she was about to channel at one of the Forsaken, and she had the strength of a small circle at her command. Her thoughts as the shield bounced were that the woman was embracing saidar and was incredibly strong, not that she was already channeling, and in addition, the shield bounced off of her, rather than the flows being cut. That would imply that holding the Power would make it harder to be shielded, wouldn't it?

[Roxinos]

Well first off, Yay! RAW is still alive and well! If no one else will greet you and applaud your return, I certainly will.  Smiley

 

*joins in the hurrah*

 

I agree. It's good to see you around RAW. I can look for your posts now instead of just looking for Luckers, Thin's, and Maj's.

 

As far as drawing on the Power and shielding is concerned, I am surprised that no- one has mentioned Verin's attempt to shield Graendal at the cleansing. It does not appear as if Graendal began channeling until after the shield bounced, although it is likely that she was already holding the Power. Verin's attempt was surely a good one, as we know from her POV that she knew she was about to channel at one of the Forsaken, and she had the strength of a small circle at her command. Her thoughts as the shield bounced were that the woman was embracing saidar and was incredibly strong, not that she was already channeling, and in addition, the shield bounced off of her, rather than the flows being cut. That would imply that holding the Power would make it harder to be shielded, wouldn't it?

 

I would love it if you could provide some quotes for this because it certainly does seem to help someone's point.

[Nightstrike]

*sigh* What makes you so certain? It wasn't so simple as Rand touching the Myrddraal which was torturing Kari with his OP sword and then the vision vanishing. He drew on the Power, a beam shot from his sword to the Myrddraal creating a blinding flash of light obscuring Kari and the Myrddraal from vision. The Myrddraal was destroyed, and before he could see the vision of Kari again, she thanked him for saving her.

I'm certain because there can't be any doubt. As I've already explained. Yes, it was so simple as Rand "freeing" his mother by "slaying myrdraal".

 

Again, if it were just a conjuration created by Ba'alzamon, why would it thank Rand? If it were just something conjured by Ishamael, why would the vision cease once he destroyed the Myrddraal? Because he wants it to? If it was the power of Tel'aran'rhiod which Ba'alzamon used to create the vision of Kari, and Rand was influencing the visions with his will, why would his lack of knowledge of the World of Dreams beat Ishamael's knowledge? Why would his will be stronger than Ishamael's? Why would Rand merely thinking that his actions saved Kari destroy the vision?

Why it would thank Rand is beside the point. But I'll humor you and give you a couple of likely reasons. It could be because he himself (Rand, that is) influenced the image. He certainly had enough emotional connection to the whole ordeal. More likely, in my view, is the fact that Ba'alzamon was afraid that Rand would overdraw on the One Power. If you read that chapter, then you'd see that he expressed deep concern. He said something like "You fool. You can't wield it like that. Not until I teach you. You'll kill yourself.". That was reason to soothe Rand's feelings. But, as I said, the exact reason is beside the point.

 

Ba'alzamon is no doubt stronger than Rand in every aspect at this point in the series. Why would he let go of Kari at all? Certainly the fact that it vanished proved to Rand, if nothing else, that the Dark One's control and power is limited and thus destroys Ishamael's efforts at throwing Rand's morale and psyche off balance. If Kari was just a vision created by Ishamael in the World of Dreams to throw Rand off balance and to threaten him, then why would Ishamael let go of it at all? Even if Rand was powerful enough to thrust the conjuration of his mother away, then why would Ishamael leave it gone? Why wouldn't he just immediately recall it, laugh, and say, "See? She is not free. Nothing you can do can save her from the Great Lord." I'd imagine that would mess with Rand's head quite significantly instead of giving him a morale boost by letting the vision of Kari al'Thor fade.

See what I said right before this.

 

So yes, questions.

No questions that are worthy of the name.

 

I would love it if you could provied some quotes for this because it certainly does seem to help someone’s point.

Verin's attempt rebounded and so did Moiraine's attempt on Meilyn (in NS). I'm sure there are more examples than that. I had already proven my point. Why would I need to prove it more than once?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Gentled Ben]

Well first off, Yay! RAW is still alive and well! If no one else will greet you and applaud your return, I certainly will.  Smiley

 

*joins in the hurrah*

 

I agree. It's good to see you around RAW. I can look for your posts now instead of just looking for Luckers, Thin's, and Maj's.

 

As far as drawing on the Power and shielding is concerned, I am surprised that no- one has mentioned Verin's attempt to shield Graendal at the cleansing. It does not appear as if Graendal began channeling until after the shield bounced, although it is likely that she was already holding the Power. Verin's attempt was surely a good one, as we know from her POV that she knew she was about to channel at one of the Forsaken, and she had the strength of a small circle at her command. Her thoughts as the shield bounced were that the woman was embracing saidar and was incredibly strong, not that she was already channeling, and in addition, the shield bounced off of her, rather than the flows being cut. That would imply that holding the Power would make it harder to be shielded, wouldn't it?

 

I would love it if you could provide some quotes for this because it certainly does seem to help someone's point.

 

Yeah, I can do that. I don't have time right now, and I don't know of any way to do it other than typing out what's printed in my paperback, which is why I loathe to do quotes, but I'll look into it later today when I have more time. I'm running off memory here, so I could be quiet mistaken; quotes are a good idea in this instance, just to be sure.

[Gentled Ben]

Ooh, double post--so much cooler than an edit.  8)

 

Okay, this is the second-to-last paragraph of Verin's POV in With the Cheoden Kal, the final chapter of WH. In my paperback, it is near the bottom of page 755:

Using the full strength of her circle, she wove her shield, and watched aghast as it rebounded. The woman was already embracing saidar, though no light shone around her, and she was immensely strong.

 

 

The bold print is mine, of course. It then goes on to describe how Graendal turned towards Verin, and even though Verin could not see the flows that Graendal wove, she knew that she was channeling, and that she had just entered a fight for her life with one of the Forsaken. Perhaps it isn't conclusive, but it seems to be strong evidence that simply holding the Source makes it more difficult to be shielded.

 

 

 

 

[Graendals favourite]

There's another like it. In New Spring, when Moiraine attacks Merean, the following happens:

Weaving a shield of Power, Moiraine hurled it at Merean with every shred of the Power in her, hoping against hope to cut the woman off from the Source. The shield struck and splintered. Merean was too strong, drawing too near her capacity.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Well now, there you go.  Nothing persuades me quite like examples from the text, and two good ones have just been provided.  It seems that a sufficient difference in strength is enough to prevent shielding, and Callandor certainly would have provided that in the Stone.  The examples I had provided earlier were of people with at least relatively similar strengths.

 

Having acknowledged that, there are still plenty of other reasons to believe that Ba'alzamon was not trying to shield Rand in the Stone, which I have already named.

[Gentled Ben]

I agree that he wasn't trying to shield him, and later on, Asmodean uses what seems to be a similar weave against Rand at Rhuidean, where Rand feels two pincers trying to grab at his soul, iirc. If that is the case, then ripping a soul from its body might not be that uncommon of an attack, at least among evil, AoL male channelers.

[Nightstrike]

Well now, there you go.  Nothing persuades me quite like examples from the text, and two good ones have just been provided.  It seems that a sufficient difference in strength is enough to prevent shielding, and Callandor certainly would have provided that in the Stone.  The examples I had provided earlier were of people with at least relatively similar strengths.

So, you needed examples from the text. And a good one, too. Wasn't the one I provided in reply #115 good enough for you:

"The thicker the flow to him from the Source, the harder it would be to cut." (TFoH, Choices). That means that it IS "harder to cut something that is thicker". Wasn't that what you said "no" to? In the quote above? Another example is the flow saidar/saidin during the cleansing. None of the Forsaken tried to get to the flow. They tried to get to Rand. If they could have cut that flow, then I'm sure they would have tried  to do it. So, it really is harder to cut something that is thicker. I think that makes perfect sense. It would have been extremely, extremely strange if the opposite had been true.

 

Having acknowledged that, there are still plenty of other reasons to believe that Ba'alzamon was not trying to shield Rand in the Stone, which I have already named.

As I see it, there are 2 reasons. One is that he told Rand what he was doing. The second is Rand's experience of the whole pulling thing (different from shielding, compulsion and other stuff). We can be fairly certain that the purpose wouldn't have been to kill Rand, unless the DO had been able to get a hold on the Dragon soul. That narrows down the possibilities until we only got one left. It was a soul-pulling weave. The DO doesn't have access to just any soul, so it must have been through Ba'alzamon's connection to the DO. I really don't think he could have held on to that soul after pulling it from the body. Holding souls is for the DO.

 

 

 

[Gentled Ben]

Well now, there you go.  Nothing persuades me quite like examples from the text, and two good ones have just been provided.  It seems that a sufficient difference in strength is enough to prevent shielding, and Callandor certainly would have provided that in the Stone.  The examples I had provided earlier were of people with at least relatively similar strengths.

So, you needed examples from the text. And a good one, too. Wasn't the one I provided in reply #115 good enough for you:

 

No, I'm sorry, but it was not. Graendal's Favorite's and mine were much, much cooler, and RAW, being shrewd, promptly recognized it.  :D

[RobertAlexWillis]

No, Nightstrike, it wasn't convincing on its own because despite Rand's thought, he still had to use a weave to protect himself against Lanfear, which was the encounter you were directly referencing.  The word "harder" can have multiple interpretations, including:

 

Physically toughened

Requiring great effort or endurance

Difficult to resolve, accomplish, or finish

 

and a number of others.

 

This means that holding more of the Power could make shielding require "greater effort" as you claim, or greater "endurance", meaning more time.  If it was the second meaning, then shielding would take slightly LONGER for a thicker connection to the Power, but not require more EFFORT.  IF that had been the case, then drawing on the Power alone would not have been sufficient.  However, that is now clearly not the case.  But until these other examples were given, in which NO DEFENSE WAS WOVEN, it was not clear.

 

So, your ONE example, in potentially ambiguous circumstances (considering Rand's ACTIONS, that is, the fact that he still had to WEAVE a defense in your specific example) was not, to me, compelling.  You WILL notice, I hope, that even before these last two examples, my position went from "fairly certain" to "arguable" in response to your example. 

 

The preponderance of evidence is convincing, and that does INCLUDE your example (singular).  But one example (singular) based around one word in potentially contradicting circumstances, isnt enough.  Examples (plural) including others in very much unambiguous circumstances, is convincing.

 

Now, I've admitted that you are right. Here's an opportunity to accept victory gracefully.  Well, a second one, you've already missed the first.

[Nightstrike]

Now, I've admitted that you are right. Here's an opportunity to accept victory gracefully.  Well, a second one, you've already missed the first.

 

Discussion gracefully over after my reply 108, right?

 

We do however know that it is harder to cut something that is thicker.

 

As far as being severed from the Power, no we don't.  Every time that I can remember where we know someone is being shielded or severed they have had to actually weave something to stop it, not just hold more of the Power.  Perhaps you can provide a counter-example.

 

There is however very strong evidence that drawing on the power more strongly protects you from being severed.

 

Perhaps you could quote said evidence?

Sorry, this time I disagree with you, RAW (that's what people call you on these forums, right?). Rand vs Lanfear before Lanfear and Moiraine went to finnland. I'm sure there are more examples.

*sniff*

 

 

 

[Thor]

keep in mind, we have not actually have any description of a pov of a male actually getting successfully shielded by another male yet in this story, so there is no telling exactly how it feels.  we've seen a lot of men shielding women, women shileding men, women shileding women, but not much of men shielding men at all.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Discussion gracefully over after my reply 108, right?

 

Obviously not.  You did actually read the differences I pointed out between your example and the others, right?  Do you really think that the fact that Rand had to actively weave a defense in your example truly means nothing?

 

keep in mind, we have not actually have any description of a pov of a male actually getting successfully shielded by another male yet in this story, so there is no telling exactly how it feels.  we've seen a lot of men shielding women, women shileding men, women shileding women, but not much of men shielding men at all.

 

Thor, while its true that man on man shielding is not as common as the others, we do have Rand shielding Asmodean more than once, with no "soul-ripping" described.  Rand "slammed a block between the man and saidin" when he came back with Aviendha from Seanchan in TFoH ch 32.  That doesn't sound like "a ripping and crumpling" or "tearing something loose" as is described in the Stone.  And yes, we don't have Asmodean's POV there, but do you really think Rand wouldn't feel it if he were "tearing something loose"?  The description we do have, in fact, is so close to the way that women shield women, and women shield men, and men shield women, that frankly, you have no leg to stand on here.  Ba'alzamon was not trying to shield Rand in the Stone.  He may not have been doing what I speculated (which I freely admitted was speculation from my first post in this thread), but he definitely was not trying to shield him.

[Scutum Fidei]

I wonder if Ishamael's attempt to rip out Rand's soul in the Heart of the Stone is a possible incident that destabilised Rand's soul and allowed for the contact between Rand's self and Lews Therin?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Its impossible to say, really, since we don't know for certain what exactly Ba'alzamon was trying to do in the Stone, or what exactly happened between Moridin and Rand in Shadar Logoth.  But the potential connection between the last contact they had before Ishy's death (in the Stone) and the ONLY contact they've had since (Shadar Logoth) did seem striking to me.  Whether what happened in the Stone somehow prepared the way for what happened in Shadar Logoth, or whether what happened in Shadar Logoth was simply a more successful attempt, or if it was truly an accident, we simply don't know for sure.  It just seems awfully suspicious to me, and the fact is, we STILL don't know exactly what the Dark One's plan is.  Since Moridin is his number one man, and Rand is his number one enemy, any connection between them is deserving of more scrutiny in my opinion, especially since there are so few.  I admit ... I've even entertained the notion that the Dark One somehow tricked Moridin, and that Shai'tan himself will somehow trigger the bodyswap to force Rand's soul into his presence at the Bore.  The True Power is Shai'tan's own Power ... perhaps he can add something to it against the channeler's will, and more than balefire was in Moridin's beam at Shadar Logoth.

 

This is all really, really speculative.  I just think there is more to this than an accident.  And, my personal thanks for getting us back to the bodyswap.

[Thor]

what happened in SL always seemed to me kind of like when matter and anti-matter annihilate.  whole bunch of radiation is released and ofcourse they are going to feel weird after getting bombarded by it.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm not really sure that matter and anti-matter have anything to do with it, even in a metaphorical sense.  Unless you're saying that the True Power and the One Power interact like matter and anti-matter, which, while certainly not proven, is worth considering. 

 

Of course, nothing in the little we actually know of matter anti-matter reactions suggests any phenomenon that would create a mental link, since mental links aren't formed by radiation.  I know that radiation has all kinds of cool powers in various stories, but in reality it just basically kills you or gives you cancer (see Mayor Adam West in Family Guy Viewer Mail #1).

 

One other thing that is worth mentioning, that I hadn't noticed before ... Rand and Moridin were actually holding hands when they "crossed the streams" ...

 

There are several ways in which physical contact can be involved in specific weaves ... but one which we know requires physical contact is the WARDER BOND.  Which also happens to be the only other permanent two-way mind-linking weave we know.  And Moridin is thoroughly familiar with it, having been in charge of the Black Ajah for centuries.  Maybe the balefire streams crossing was a diversion (for us as much as Rand) or an accident.  Moridin could surely handle more than one weave at a time.  Rand would neither have seen nor felt another weave of the True Power.  And, being distracted, Rand would not act to counteract it, if there was some sort of strange feeling associated with it.  We know that some weaves which are not painful with the One Power are quite painful with the True Power (Healing, for example), so the painful reaction would not be surprising.

 

I realize that there are a lot of maybes and perhapses here.  But the number of "coincidences" is rising too.  It seems more and more that something more than just an accident was going on there.

 

[Nightstrike]

There are several ways in which physical contact can be involved in specific weaves ... but one which we know requires physical contact is the WARDER BOND.  Which also happens to be the only other permanent two-way mind-linking weave we know.  And Moridin is thoroughly familiar with it, having been in charge of the Black Ajah for centuries.  Maybe the balefire streams crossing was a diversion (for us as much as Rand) or an accident.  Moridin could surely handle more than one weave at a time.  Rand would neither have seen nor felt another weave of the True Power.  And, being distracted, Rand would not act to counteract it, if there was some sort of strange feeling associated with it.  We know that some weaves which are not painful with the One Power are quite painful with the True Power (Healing, for example), so the painful reaction would not be surprising.

There are some problems with that theory. We don't know if the warder bond can be done with the True Power. It's highly unlikely that a warder bond can be set on someone already holding the One Power (and channeling for all they are worth). A warder bond wouldn't give Rand trouble reaching for saidin. And why would he see Moridin's face? What significance would the balefire crossing have in all this, anyway? It is a clue to something, after all... Why would their crossing be a diversion any more than them not crossing?

 

 

 

[MikeRiley]

I don't think he meant Moridin bonded him as a warder so much as he knew the weave and could have altered it in some way.

 

The balefire crossing always seemed more coincidence to me. Especially given the rage Rand sees on Moridin's face when he draws on Saidin in Knife of Dreams. So, I'd say it's unintentional and we really won't know until book 12 (if then).