Whats going to happen to Fain?

[Bob T Dwarf]

I can't find the exact reference at the moment.  So, for now, consider a link with no more than 10 as unproven.

 

What is confirmed ( in the Glossaries, if nowhere else ) is that Fades command a single Fist of Trollocs.  A Fist is at least 100 but never more than 200.

 

So, given that, 100 Myrddraal could command no more than 20,000 Trollocs.  In order for there to have been 100,000 attacking the Manor, there would have had to be at least 500-1,000 Myrddraal.

 

EDIT:  I did find this in TSR - Chapter Ten - The Stone Stands:

...He had to keep the Defenders together, or face the Myrddraal and twenty Trollocs alone.  "The Stone stands!"

...

As the Fade's head fell to roll across the floor, the remaining Trollocs fell too, shrieking, kicking, tearing at their heads with coarse-haired hands.  It was a weakness of Myrddraal and Trollocs.  Even Myrddral did not trust Trollocs, so they often linked with them in some way Rand did not understand; it apparently ensured the Trollocs' loyalty, but those linked to a Myrddraal did not survive its death long.

 

So, apparently, the number with which they can link can extend to at least 20.

 

 

 

[Darian]

they are going to lock him up with the DO probably so they spend more times attacking each other, just a theory, he reminds me of ghollum from LOTR, he must serve some purpose in the end.

[RAND AL THOR]

I hope the outcome of Tarmon Gaidon doesn't depend on Fain. That would really be an awful mimic with LOTR.

 

The character in WOT who most resembles gollum would indeed be Fain.

[Bob T Dwarf]

WOT seems to be a universe where virtue and vice both require personification.  If the DO gets sealed away again, that universe would require a new 'face' for evil, and Fain seems to be the most evident character to fulfill that role.  So, my guess is that he survives and becomes the new big-baddy.

 

Between the DO's ministrations, and his incorporation of Ordieth/Mordeth, he could well be immortal.

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Hmm...could be.  Maybe it was Rand balefiring forces of the Shadow, or cursing the DO and fighting him in his dreams, or...or...oh wait, maybe you were being facetious.  That's always a good tactic in debate.  And yet, it IS the target of the Shadow to have the DR at TG.  Everyone is trying to use the DR for their own purposes; for most, it means having him at TG.  It would be very surprising to me if the Dark hasn't gotten someone into a trusted position with the DR prior to TG, so he can be betrayed.  For me, Verin is the most likely

UNQUOTE

 

Oh my God you really think Verin is the person the Shadow has chosen to be close to Rand, so he can be betrayed?

 

*cough* Dashiva aka Osan'gar aka AGINIOR, ONE OF THE FORSAKEN

*cough* Mazrim Taim, who is in an even better place for it than Osan'gar, and who is already near the end of that road

*cough* any of the renegade Ashaman.

 

The Shadow has already been there and done that. Taim has taken a massive chunk of the Black Tower for the Shadow, and has already started creating friction between the Ashaman and Aes Sedai. Verin had nothing to do with it.

 

What has Verin done to get close to Rand? Its a long stretch, but I suppose you could say she may have been behind Alanna bonding Rand against his will, and I suppose you could look at her recruiting for Aes Sedai in Emonds Field being a small step towards getting close to Rand, but compare that to Taim and Osan'gar infecting the Black Tower...you get my point. Verin is NOT trying to get close to Rand for teh Shadow.

[benr]

Well, the point was a TRUSTED position.  Taim, or any of the BT, are not trusted (certainly not by LTT!).  Whether for the Shadow or the Light, Verin doesn't seem to follow anyone's direction but her own.  There was friction between the BT and the WT anyways; the WT seems to have a slight distrust of male channelers.

[Guest Dreadlord]

So youre saying the head of the Black Tower isnt a position of trust? Since we're looking at this from ths Shadows PoV, lets do just that, and leave what Rand might think out of it for now. So what I say from now on is ASSUMING Verin is a Darkfriend.

 

We know by now that she is a crafty one. She knows Compulsion and isnt scared to use it. So, if the Shadow chose her as the one to be close to Rand, so he can be betrayed, dont you think she would already close to Rand? She is capable by herself, and add the help of her fellow Darkfriends, who have infiltrated every nation, army and organisation, she would be with Rand if she wanted to be.

 

Now, lets look at Taim. As soon as Rands amnesty came into effect, teh Shadow sees its big chance. They send Taim, because they know Rand has definitely heard of him and knows he has experience in channeling. Taim shows up, Rand tells him he will be teaching people to channel, you know the drill (KEEP IN MIND WE ARE STILL LOOKING AT THIS THROUGH THE SHADOWS EYES HERE). Taim is instantly in a position of trust, being in charge of recruitment, training, the job lot. Since then, as everyone knows, Taim has had his Darkfriends coming and learning to channel. Also, from the beginning, Taim has been working on preventing a good relationship between male and female channelers from being established. (Yes, I know, Aes Sedai arent fond of male channellers Im not stupid, but when a Ta'veren is head of the good guys the bad guys know they have to work to prevent it). Later, we learn that most of the full Ashaman are Taims "favorite pupils" aka DARKFRIENDS, not to mention the fact that Osan'gar is there also. Rands arsenal of weapons are all potentially double-edged for Rand, which means he is reluctant to use them at all. And that means the Shadow dont really need to worry about the Black Tower half as mujch as they would otherwise.

 

So after all that, when people say Verin is the Shadows favorite candidate to turn on Rand, when Taim has already done that WAAAAAAAAAAY more successful than Verin ever could, I find it very funny. Rand notes that any of the Ashaman are weapons of such power that any non-channeller could not comprehend just how much of a weapon they really are. Taim has turned hundreds of these "weapons of unimaginable power" Rand.

 

Taim has already succeeded. Verin is DEFINITELY not the Shadows favorite to be close to Rand. 100%

[Guest Dreadlord]

QUOTE

Taim has turned hundreds of these "weapons of unimaginable power" Rand.

UNQUOTE

 

Typing error. I meant to put turned them AGAINST Rand. Im at work writing this and have to be discrete so Im rushing hehe

[benr]

That's OK; even when I have lots of time (and I re-read my posts for errors), I'll go back and wonder how I could have said that. 

 

The threat of the Ashaman is real, dire, and can be lain at Rand's feet.  He has NEVER trusted Taim (you don't contend that he does, do you?), but has allowed this to continue.  I have to figure he will need help in dealing with this - Logain?

 

Anyways, it certainly doesn't preclude other elements of the Shadow from working to win at TG.  Again, I think Verin has her own goals figured out; she has her own outcomes in mind; she is under the direction of no-one but herself; getting Rand to TG for whichever side she is for is the main goal.  Luckers had a good theory that she mistrusts the AS so much that she is constantly working to undermine them, but that seems weaker to me than she has a nefarious plot to undermine Rand at TG. 

[Guest Dreadlord]

No I dont contend that Rand trusts Taim, I am saying Taim is in a position of trust. Meaning Taims position is one where he has an opportunity to do something Rand would rather he didnt. Rand has never trusted Taim, I know that.

 

As for Rand not doing anything, I can see it from both sides. Rand should definitely have done something about his suspision of Taim early on, but then things like the Seanchan became a priority. And taking Sammael out while Rand knew where he was. After that, Rand realises that the Shadow are waiting for him to do something about the Black Tower, so he does something different. Remember Rand saying to Bashere "When an enemy offers you two targets..." and Bashere finishes the sentence with "Strike a third."

[Mr Ares]

Did my name drop a Mr or something? Get it right.

You called Bob T Dwarf, just Bob, so I am calling you just Ares.  ;D

Lots of people have called Bob T Dwarf just Bob. I've yet to see him object. You see the difference?

[Guest Dreadlord]

Jesus Christ, it never ceases to amaze me how petty some people on here can be

[bad company]

Back to the discussion  >:(

 

This isn't a spamming board

[Guest Dreadlord]

Agreed.

 

Someone mentioned earlier that Fain still has a role to play, and that he may end up helping the Light in some way. While this would be very annoying I have to admit it does seem a likely outcome, if you look at how much Fain wants to be the one that kills Rand. He killed Kisman (was it Kisman?) because he tried to kill Rand and I see something similar happening in AMoL. I get the feeling that Fain will either kill someone of the Shadow or be killed by someone of the Shadow. And that feeling annoys me because I cant see either case involving someone insignificant, which means there is one less potential decent one-on-one to look forward to, if you get what I mean.

[bad company]

Yeah I see your point, I would like to see fain vs slayer. They are both intersting characters who seem to fall on neither side of the war, freelance agents you could say.

 

They both have a role to play considering that slayer (whatever names he goes by) is mentioned in the second book at the start in the prophecy on the wall.

[Luckers]

Quote from: Luckers on June 17, 2008, 04:31:20 AM

It is actually proven that she is bound by the oaths--she thinks to herself following her promise that she would not 'say' anything to the car'a'carn about Katerine's escape that she could still write it out if need be. She also dances around the truth with Beldeine about her fatigue relating to the sun a short time later. She is bound.

 

And her not being shadow is proven to in her own thoughts--about Cadsuane, about Graendal. Not to mention her actions in protecting Rand from Aes Sedai manipulation--from inciting Demira, to destabalizing Siuan and Moiraine, to compelling Aes Sedai to aid him.

 

Verin Mathwin is not a darkfriend.

 

 

1. Verin is insinuating herself into the inner circle of the Light.  She needs everyone involved to believe she is bound by the Oaths.  Her goal is to get the DR to TG.  That is the goal of the DO.  Admittedly, it is also the goal of the Light, too - in fact, it is the goal of almost everyone.  Rand should just go sit and wait for everyone else to join him on SG.

 

With all due respect benr--no. Her thoughts reguarding her comment to Beldeine might be explained by a black sister playing the part of light sister--its unlikely, given that it is impossible that someone would pick her up on a lie about such a banal and personal thing--especially since if anyone had reason to question that comment, then the fact that she'd compelled them presented a much greater risk and Verin didn't back away from that, but possible. Certainly we know Black Sisters must practice speaking the truth almost as assidiously as Light sisters in order to avoid detection.

 

But the letter to Rand involved specific intentions to act, not to avoid notice. She spoke words saying she couldn't tell Rand, and immediately concludes her only method to be to write to Rand. That is proof. She is bound.

 

2. Again, her thoughts about Caddy are just as easily explained by the fact that she (Caddy) has convinced her (Verin) that Caddy's goals coincide with hers - not necessarily her motives, but her goals.  If she thought Caddy was trying to keep Rand from TG, she would have poisened her.  The incitation of Demira led to Rand's kidnapping.  All of the Dark think bad thoughts about each other - Verin holds the Forsaken in relatively low esteem, definitely not in awe.  Her "suggestions" to her "compulsed" sisters to aid Rand are, again, designed to get him to TG; and some of those pledged are Black.

 

Firstly, only Elza equates her compulsion in terms of getting him to Tarmon Gai'don--thats the reality of her method of compulsion, it requires a strong personal belief in order to function. Elza who is a Black Sister rationalizes it by thinking Rand must get to Tarmon Gai'don in order to die at the Dark One hands--similarily Nesune does it to stufy him, Beldeine in order that he and the light win, and she with him--its all subjective. Verin did not compel their reasons, she compelled their purpose--Rand fighting the Last Battle, and winning.

 

Secondly the incitation of Demira led to a schism between Rand and the Salidar Aes Sedai--no more. Verin did not know of Galina's plan, and her actions could never have been predicted to have led to its success.

 

Thirdly, she holds her hand no when Cadsuane reveals her intention to see Rand to Tarmon Gai'don, but her intention to see Rand mentally healthy when he reaches Tarmon Gai'don--that shows a direct intention for his success. Sorry.

 

If your assumption is that Verin is NOT of the Shadow, all of her actions lead one way.  If, on the other hand, you assume the opposite, they mean something else.  Most agree with you, Luckers - you are very persuasive, very knowledgable, and usually right.  You might not be this time, though.

 

I'm sorry. I'm usually willing to say when alternate possibilities exist, even when i dogmatically support my own as truth--but no, Verin is not of the shadow. This, like the claim that Demandred is Taim, or Olver is Gaidal Cain, is one of those things that had merit in first glance, but simply cannot be the case.

 

 

[billoumm7]

who said Demandred  was taim... he's clearly mordin...

[Lord Nik]

i had thoughts that taim is mordin but is there any proof or is it one of those "it just makes sense" things

[billoumm7]

it just makes sense

[Celdiruen]

Fain is such a wildcard in my eyes. I'm really hoping he does something really unexpected. But he's probably gonna take out some high-ranking member of the Shadow and then die somehow.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I should probably let someone else handle this but...

 

No.  Taim is not Demandred.  That is direct from Jordan.

 

As to him being Moridin, that doesn't work either.  Taim showed up in Caemlyn before Moridin was out of the jar.  Further, Rand was 'saved' from Sam's first ambush in Shadar Logoth by ( he who is most likely ) Moridin.  That was when the linkage between Rand and Moridin was most likely created.  So, Rand has been face-to-face with both Taim and Moridin - at very close range - and didn't twig to any resemblance between the two.

 

Best we can tell as of now is that Taim is just Taim. 

[Celdiruen]

Bob is right. Of course Moridin could use an inverted weave and conceal himself, but I think it would probably be very risky. And don't forget that the best illusions are ones that stay close to the original form, and Rand would have probably recognized him, even then.

[RAND AL THOR]

Best we can tell as of now is that Taim is just Taim. 

 

:o ::) ;D

[Bob T Dwarf]

Jordan's answer about Taim is somewhat... convoluted.

Week 4 Question: At recent book signing following the release of Crossroads of Twilight, it was reported that you confirmed that the Forsaken Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, who was introduced to Rand at the beginning of Lord of Chaos. Have you confirmed that Demandred has never posed as the man known as Mazrim Taim, leader of the Black Tower?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you. <Maniacal laughter from the shadows!>

 

I think IF we parsed that closely enough we could make a case that he was being very crafty.  The word "posed" being the important operative term.

 

Since I don't wanna fight that particular battle right now, I'll leave it to someone else to tease out what he might really have been trying to tell us.

[billoumm7]

simple... HE'S NOT TAIM!!!