Would you accept Rand returning to life?

[RAND AL THOR]

I would accept nothing less than Rand surviving.  I love him, even if he is a stubborn idiot a bit of the time.  I'm hoping he just fakes his death or something though, I would find it difficult to swallow his dying and coming back to life without the help of the Creator or something..

 

My thoughts precisely.

 

However, how would he be able to 'fake' his death? Because there are so many people who have bonded him. Also, the finns said that he must die and I doubt that could mean anything other than that. They are not the kind who joke. ;)

I too really want Rand to live, but I'm not sure if I would like it if he gets resurrected in his own body after officially being dead. But that's just my view. ;)

[Razor]

How about Fain stabbing Rand with the dagger and then Fian getting balefired back to last Tuesday.

[RAND AL THOR]

If Rand's body suffers any more serious injury I'm just going to go mad. I'm already really sad that his body is in so much bad shape already. I can't even imagine living the rest of your life like that. Also, isn't the wound from Fain's attack supposed to break open sometime soon? I think the person who healed Rand (flinn?) mentioned that what he did wouldn't hold the evil of the wound at bay for long.

[havoc110]

Wow, I think faking his death would be a much cheesier ending

than dying/rebirth.  I may however, be in the minority.

[Bob T Dwarf]

A couple reminders on the TAR theories listed above:

 

1. When someone bound to the horn dies, they return to TAR as their most recent human embodiment. Although they have many memories from past lives, they are in large part the last body that they occupied.

 

2. While its a good theory to "rip" Rand out of TAR and bond him, there are two problems with this theory

      a. No one knows exactly how it was done (other than maybe the Chosen)

      b. Because she was untimely ripped out of TAR, even Birgitta admits that she doesn't know what affect that will have on her potential rebirth into the WoT and her connection to the horn and Gaidal. If, as she suspects and or fears could be the case, this severed her connection to the Wheel as a hero, doing the same to the Dragon could risk forsaking the future of Randland when he rebirth is going to be needed the next go-round.

 

 

Moggy did it.  Moggy was imprisoned by Nynaeve.  Kept prisoner.  Milked for as much info as they could get.  Nynaeve should know how.

 

Remember what Hawkwing said to Huirin, " From time-to-time the Wheel adds to our number..."  All Birgitte and Rand need to do is keep doing what they're doing and neither they nor the world needs to worry about whether they will continue as Heroes of the Horn.

 

It could also work out that one of the Wonder Girls figures it all out rather than Rand.  Then once Rand dies, she takes Huirin into T'a'R and uses him as her bloodhound to find Rand's soul.  That way maybe Huirin gets what he wished for, too.

 

The Bonding part will be chancy.  Thats what the Dream about the man on a cot who was dying but must not die is about.

[bjclinton]

A couple reminders on the TAR theories listed above:

 

1. When someone bound to the horn dies, they return to TAR as their most recent human embodiment. Although they have many memories from past lives, they are in large part the last body that they occupied.

 

2. While its a good theory to "rip" Rand out of TAR and bond him, there are two problems with this theory

      a. No one knows exactly how it was done (other than maybe the Chosen)

      b. Because she was untimely ripped out of TAR, even Birgitta admits that she doesn't know what affect that will have on her potential rebirth into the WoT and her connection to the horn and Gaidal. If, as she suspects and or fears could be the case, this severed her connection to the Wheel as a hero, doing the same to the Dragon could risk forsaking the future of Randland when he rebirth is going to be needed the next go-round.

 

 

Moggy did it.  Moggy was imprisoned by Nynaeve.  Kept prisoner.  Milked for as much info as they could get.  Nynaeve should know how.

 

Remember what Hawkwing said to Huirin, " From time-to-time the Wheel adds to our number..."  All Birgitte and Rand need to do is keep doing what they're doing and neither they nor the world needs to worry about whether they will continue as Heroes of the Horn.

 

It could also work out that one of the Wonder Girls figures it all out rather than Rand.  Then once Rand dies, she takes Huirin into T'a'R and uses him as her bloodhound to find Rand's soul.  That way maybe Huirin gets what he wished for, too.

 

The Bonding part will be chancy.  Thats what the Dream about the man on a cot who was dying but must not die is about.

 

We have seen no evidence of the Wonder girls learning anything from Moggy about TAR, so it would take a pretty big leap of faith to assume that they learned something like this.....not to mention the fact that its such an evil thing to learn, that I can't imagine them even wanting to. The only benefit would be to find out what effects it might have had on Birgitta and since we've seen no conversation of such, i'm of the mindset that they have no idea what was done or how.

 

As far as being added to the horn again, it know its possible, but who in their right mind would try to bring him back to life knowing the risks? It would be crazy. Neither Elayne, Avienda, nor Min would risk the future of Randland by ripping him from TAR without knowing what the consequences could be. Hoping that he would be added as a hero again isn't enough.

 

Great theories to read, but IMO, they require too much back-pedaling and explanation about things that supposedly were learned or happened early on in the books and it would contradict what this story is all about....the Dragon's sacrifice (or supposed sacrifice). To bring him back from the dead by ripping him out of TAR seems........wrong.

[RAND AL THOR]

I always did wonder if the soul of the Dragon ever did wait in TAR for rebirth because that soul is not linked to the Horn. We have not yet seen any direct evidence that the Dragon has ever been in TAR while having no physical body.

 

Another little point: If LTT had been waiting in TAR, wouldn't 3000 years been enough time to get over what he did to Ilyena? My god, I can't imagine grieving over something you did (even something like that-but remember he was mad when he did it) for 3000 years!!!

[Bob T Dwarf]

You're right.  There's no clearly direct evidence.

 

All we've got is the highly suggestive fact that the Heroes, as exemplified by Hawkwing and Birgitte, all know and are quite friendly toward LTT.  Even addressing Rand as Lews Therin when they first meet.  How else do they know him by that name?  The Horn was never used during the AoL.  Or the WoP.

 

For that matter, where else does the Wheel have to stash its special souls?

[RAND AL THOR]

That part always nagged at me. I had assumed that Hawking was actually a person who rose to power during the time of Manetheren etc and was added to the Wheel after his death. I don;t remember anyone recalling stories about him before that point.

 

So how did he know LTT? If my thought above is right, then he could only have known the Dragon by meeting him in TAR. That would support your theory, yes.

[Mr Ares]

That part always nagged at me. I had assumed that Hawking was actually a person who rose to power during the time of Manetheren etc and was added to the Wheel after his death. I don;t remember anyone recalling stories about him before that point.

Hawkwing rose to power nearly a thousand years after the end of the Trolloc Wars, when Manetheren was destroyed. His death marked the beginnig of the War of a Hundred Years, a millenium before the series begins. Considering how little we have of those times, who would be doing this recalling of a previous incarnation of the Hawkwing soul? Hawkwing claims to have fought alongside and against Lews Therin many times in the past.

[RAND AL THOR]

Hawkwing claims to have fought alongside and against Lews Therin many times in the past.

 

Ah ya, I forgot that.

I was just saying that there are so many stories about Birgitte and other heroes of the horn (but I'm not sure how far back they date). So I was thinking why there weren't any on Hawking.

 

I just thought of something. When the Horn is used in TG, Hawking would come. How would this affect the Seanchan? Perhaps after TG, Hawking may instruct them all to return to Seanchan and the Seanchan would obey??

[Bob T Dwarf]

We have seen no evidence of the Wonder girls learning anything from Moggy about TAR, so it would take a pretty big leap of faith to assume that they learned something like this.....not to mention the fact that its such an evil thing to learn, that I can't imagine them even wanting to. The only benefit would be to find out what effects it might have had on Birgitta and since we've seen no conversation of such, i'm of the mindset that they have no idea what was done or how.

 

As far as being added to the horn again, it know its possible, but who in their right mind would try to bring him back to life knowing the risks? It would be crazy. Neither Elayne, Avienda, nor Min would risk the future of Randland by ripping him from TAR without knowing what the consequences could be. Hoping that he would be added as a hero again isn't enough.

 

Great theories to read, but IMO, they require too much back-pedaling and explanation about things that supposedly were learned or happened early on in the books and it would contradict what this story is all about....the Dragon's sacrifice (or supposed sacrifice). To bring him back from the dead by ripping him out of TAR seems........wrong.

 

Rand has been considering the problem ever since he saw the 'Finns.  We know he has a plan of some kind, witness Alivia.  But, we have no knowledge of what that plan currently is either.

 

We know that Moggy was a prisoner kept in an a'dam for a fair amount of time.  We've been told next-to-nothing about anything the Girls gained from that.  Doesn't mean that they learned nothing.  IIRC, it was Nynaeve who witnessed Moggy cast Birgitte out, so she's already "seen" whatever it was Moggy did.

 

Right, wrong, or indifferent, the sequence I outlined is the only way the books have provided to us for how Rand can live by dying:

 

Die;

Go to T'a'R;

Be cast out;

Be Bonded.

 

IF his death results from a body swap that Moridin pulls off, then, since Rand was able to successfully resist it the first time it was tried, the fact that it succeeds would constitute a deliberate sacrifice of himself by Rand this time.

 

And, convoluted as the whole process may appear.  Rand isn't going to win TG without taking enormous, and, some might even say, insane risks.  Even if he does end up disconnected from the Wheel, it really shouldn't matter.  The Dragon had to be born a first time,  just like every other soul, and the Wheel will pass through whenever that was again.

 

This may be the only way the Dragon can retire from the Dragonning business - get a ranch - some chickens - maybe a dog - have time and peace enough to sit under a shade tree and sip kaf.  Hasn't he earned it?

[bjclinton]

Hawkwing claims to have fought alongside and against Lews Therin many times in the past.

 

Ah ya, I forgot that.

I was just saying that there are so many stories about Birgitte and other heroes of the horn (but I'm not sure how far back they date). So I was thinking why there weren't any on Hawking.

 

I just thought of something. When the Horn is used in TG, Hawking would come. How would this affect the Seanchan? Perhaps after TG, Hawking may instruct them all to return to Seanchan and the Seanchan would obey??

 

If he was going to do this, he probably would have at Falme....but it would be GREAT if he woke up and put the smack down on his "grand-children"

 

 

[Jarraad]

Fortellings can be interpreted in many ways.

 

However, I too agree that it is 85% likely that Rand will die and return to life.

 

My curiosity is drawn to how this would actually happen. It is highly likely that the revival would involve breaking several laws of nature that Randland follows. I would not find that idea inviting. But I am expecting an ending where Rand's revival fits all the laws etc...so I don' think I will be disappointed.

 

And obviously BS has very limited editorial control over Randland. He can't change much at all and I'm sure he wouldn't even if he could. RJ deserves his own plot to be published, especially since he's been working on it for so long.

 

One thing I would like to note, is that Rand as a being, his soul breaks the laws of nature.  Heroes of the horn, (rands soul is tied to the horn) are born and born again but randomly, with a few specified conditions, but nothing beyond those.  Rand however is born at a specific time, with specific major events heralding his coming.  I cant remember but somewhere in TSR someone says that it is highly unusual for a specific individual to be reborn according to prophecy. 

[RAND AL THOR]

Heroes of the Horn are indeed spun out by the wheel once in a while. What would happen if the Horn is blown at a time when some of the heroes are in the flesh? Would only the heroes still in TAR answer to it or would it somehow attract the heroes who have been fleshed out? I personally think it will only summon whoever remains in TAR but wouldn't that be incomplete?

[Bob T Dwarf]

We don't know and there's no way to tell until/unless the Horn gets blown at TG and we see what Birgitte and Gaidal do.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Personally I wouldn't accept Rand NOT returning to life. Too many things point at it, enough to make it more like a big sign saying RAND WILL RETURN TO LIFE SOMEHOW.

 

The Finns saying "to live you must die" at first seemed like a cheesy "you will die but your name will live on" attempt. Nicolas viewing "...and he who is dead yet lives..." sets it in stone, in my opinion, that somehow Rand will be alive after he dies. Add that to the dragon prophecies "Twice dawns the day his blood is shed. Once for mourning, once for birth" and it seems pretty clear that Rands death wont be the end of him, in my opinion.

[Safia al-Maaz]

I swear, if by some chance Rand DOES die I will take all my WoT books and burn them!  GAH!!  SOrry, a little venting there... 

 

However, whenever I think of Nicola's  "He who is dea yet lives" bit, I think that its refering to the present circumstances.  Like, he's alive right now, but he is a dead man walking type thing.  I don't think that's right, that's just the feeling I get everytime I read it.  Makes me sad *tear*

[RAND AL THOR]

I swear, if by some chance Rand DOES die I will take all my WoT books and burn them!  GAH!!  SOrry, a little venting there... 

 

However, whenever I think of Nicola's  "He who is dea yet lives" bit, I think that its refering to the present circumstances.  Like, he's alive right now, but he is a dead man walking type thing.  I don't think that's right, that's just the feeling I get everytime I read it.  Makes me sad *tear*

 

I am truly expecting him to die and then return to life. I just hope that his revival is not done in such a way that we feel that it is far-fetched and theoretically unlikely. I have seen too many parts in various stories where some events are just convenient for the author and seem far-fetched to the reader. eg. the Gringotts break out in the last book was a bit disappointing, though I enjoyed the book as a whole.

 

Rand had better live! RJ can't be cold hearted enough to kill him off!!!!!!

[benr]

If you want to know some of Hawkwing's incarnations, ask Mat - he might remember some of them.  Also, I've wondered about the Hawkwing/Seanchen thing too.  I figure he will be really pissed at what they've become.

[Majsju]

RJ decided the faith of rand 20 years ago, it would be quite hard to not accept it. I will however be extremely disappointed if he does not die and stay dead. If there is one thing I wish RJ would have "borrowed" from Martin, it is the willingness to kill characters and let them stay dead.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I'm feeling far too silly today -

 

If we examine Rand carefully, something amazing starts to stand out:

 

He is the Coor'a'moor.  Probably equivalent to the War Chief meaning of Car'a'carn.

He has double vision.

He is missing a hand.

He has a little "birdie" that speaks into his ear.

 

Now, put a patch over one eye to get rid of the double vision.

Give him a hook for that missing hand.

 

And, you get Rand al'Thor the Pirate King.

 

Just wait - Cap'n Jack Sparrow will show up in time for TG, too.

[havoc110]

Hmm...

 

Doesn't sound too different than my theory.

 

Wait, my theory's supposed to be serious...

Uh-oh.

[RAND AL THOR]

Majsju is so meeeeeeeaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn! I want Rand to live!!! :'( :'( :'(

[havoc110]

I'm with Maj.

 

I want Rand to die and stay dead.

Pretty sure that I will only be half satisfied

by the ending in that regard.