The Dragon Banner

[bcxanth]

Well' date=' "the Wheel" also acclaimed Rand the Dragon at Tarwin's Gap, so doing it again at Falme was pretty redundant. So what's your point?[/quote']No actually, it doesn't. Only the Borderlander army sees him at the gap, and they all think it was the Creator they saw. And even though Agelmar knows what he saw was a man channeling, he still doesn't know who it was. And nobody was mentioning the Dragon.

 

On the other hand, after Falme, everyone knew it was the Dragon Reporn, or at least someone claiming to be him, and they knew what he looked like. Even Siuan and Moir agree that this was the Wheel forcing Rand to be proclaimed as the DO. In their conversation in Fal Dara after Siuan arrives she tells Moir that the False Dragons are gone, and Moir says it's because the True Dragon had proclaimed himself and so the Pattern had no more need for False Dragons.

 

Now you're ascribing some form of sentience to the Wheel. Where's your evidence for that?

 

Everything points to the Wheel being a pattern following machine with a limited self-correcting mechanism ( ta'verens ). Nothing even suggests that it is capable of thought or reason' date=' let alone complicated strategic and political planning and execution.

 

There is no deus ex machina here.[/quote']Nobody is saying that the Wheel is sentient. What is being said is that the Pattern the Wheel weaves can be complicated and twisted beyond belief. We're also told many times in the books that ta'veren are bound tighter to the Pattern then normal folks and have very few decisions of their own.

 

Think about it for a minute. If the Aiel had never gotten water from the ancient Cairhien people, they never would have sought them out and given them a Chora cutting. Then Laman never would have had a tree to cut down, causing the Aiel war, causing Tigraine/Shial to cross the Dragonwall while pregnant, causing her to give birth to the Dragon on Dragonmount.

 

That's just one example of many in the books that show how the Pattern makes sure what needs to happen, happens no matter what. Rand needed to be proclaimed as the Dragon, so it throws up False Dragons to try and force events. When that doesn't work, it forces Falme. That is the way the Wheel works.

[Guest Majsju]

Well, according to the one person who does indeed know, the Wheel is slightly more complicated than you seem to think...

 

Question: At the end of the Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the one power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

 

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn’t the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta’veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one dragon.

 

(D*Con -05)

[Bob T Dwarf]

I didn't say it's not complicated. I said it's not sentient. It's not the god in the machine.

 

It's just a really complicated machine.

[bcxanth]

I didn't say it's not complicated. I said it's not sentient. It's not the god in the machine.

You're the only one who said it was sentient, in arguing that it's not. :) None of us said it is. We simply said that the Wheel forced Rand to proclaim himself. Just as a loom forces thread to be woven to the pattern it has set, so did the Wheel force Rand to its pattern.

[Guest Majsju]

Forcing Rand to proclaim himself is part of the self-correction. At this particular moment in the weave the Wheel demands the Dragon Reborn. The one true Dragon Reborn. When Rand refuses to proclaim himself, a flaw appears in the weave, a flaw that must be corrected.

 

And if the Wheel can spit out heroes and make people ta'veren as correcting devices, a little matter such as temporarily tie the heroes to the banner is a quite simple interaction, but with great influence over events without disturbing too much of other events.

[Aviendha]

Bob, I think Rand did proclaim himself the Dragon after Falme. And I think this is supported by the fact that the False Dragons fell around the same time. I think that Rand continued to question whether he was or wasn't the Dragon while he was in hiding with Morraine and during his run to Tear. Rand saw Callandor as the ultimate test. Either he could touch it & he was the Dragon or he couldn't and he was just another poor, mad fool of a man who could channel & was being manipulated by AS.

[Luckers]

Bob, it isn't a sentient force, but by all evidence it has a certain drive to it. The fact that a precognition that cannot be wrong exists proves that. Obviously there are events that MUST happen, and the evidence seems to suggest, through prophecy, and the results of that event (the false dragons being cast down etc) that it was a significant event, and one that the wheel was bound too. Indeed, the fall of the false dragons prove the active involvement of the wheel as a force

[deathgate]

The heroes needed to follow the banner in that particular moment. A moment where there was more things in the mix than just riding out fighting a battle.

 

Does anyone else remember Perrin being called the bannerman? If so Mat is the horn blower, rand the Dragon and Perrin the bannerman. Must be why it is important for all three to be together at the last battle.

[Aviendha]

Perin carried the Dragon banner into Falme. I can't remember him specifically being called the bannerman - but that's prob just my poor memory - but he did carry the banner so it does fit.

[Luckers]

He was... but meh... he carried a banner. I don't think it nessasarily has significance beyond that.

[Inara]

the king, the general/hornblower, and the bannerman

there's a fantasy trio if i ever saw one

[Gromit]

I remember from somewhere RJ saying something about they knew the horn existed except they thought there would be no use as their technology was so much greater.

[Llewin]

The heroes of the horn do not need to follow either the Dragon or the banner' date=' it was merely a personal predilection of Artur Hawkwings... to set the mood, as it were. The heroes themselves only have to obey whoever sounds the horn, which at the moment has to be Mat, they don't have to follow anyone.[/quote']

 

 

Can you quote what you are basing that on? I think Hawkwing's statement in TGH made it pretty clear that they were held back from action because the Dragon banner was not flying...

[Llewin]

Didn't Rand end up bringing the banner with him in PoD to fight the Seanchan' date=' or was that just the cover?

 

As for the Heroes having to follow the Dragon and the Banner, that's never made clear in the books, but from what is said by Suain and Hawkwing, no they don't. That's why Hawkwing has faced the Dragon hundreds of times in the last battle.[/quote']

 

Hawkwing never said he faced LTT in any of the last battles... what he said is the has faught with and against LTT (as in the dragon) many times. This was not necessarily during the last battle and was most definitely not necessarily regarding battles while Hawkwing was 'dead' and in T'a'R... More likely he is addressing times that he and LTT were spun out in the same timeline and faught as mortal men.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Hawkwing's statement did make it quite clear.

 

There is also the interesting fact that the Banner and the Horn were not only hidden until such time as they would be needed, but they were hidden together. If the Banner isn't a necessity, why bother making sure that it would get found at the same time as the Horn.

[Gromit]

 

There is no evidence that the Horn was ever used during the AoL. Indeed' date=' had it been, the War of Power might probably would ) have gone much differently.[/quote']

 

The as knew of the horn but they chose not to use it as it was primitive.

[Llewin]

They didnt use it because when the dark one was first freed the "Horn of Valere" was collecting dust in a museum and the legend of the horn was considered to be just that, merely a legend... Shortly after the war began the horn was lost so that when people actually did figure out it was useful it could not be brought to bear. at some point after the breaking began it was found again and preserved at the eye of the world because of the Fortelling now known as the Kaerathon Cycle (sp?)

[kittydesmond]

In response to the very first post...It was a major point when the heros came to the horn when one of them (hawkwing I think) said "I feel held." "do you have the banner?" Seems to me it was black and white...called to the horn must follow the banner..

 

Well that was my interpretation anyway...

[Jellybelly]

At that particular moment in time; yes. That does not necessitate that it must be like that the next time it is used.

[Guest cwestervelt]

What is there to suggest that the Banner was a one time requirement? After all, the Banner had nothing to do with Rand proclaiming himself the Dragon Reborn.

 

There were 2 seperate requirements for the Heroes to act. The presense of the Dragon and the presense of the Banner. Two seperate and distict entities both of which were required. The Heroes acknowledged Rand as the Dragon and Rand accepted the position. The Banner had nothing to do with that so why bother making it an add on requirement? Rand's being the Dragon didn't make it the Banner and it being the Banner didn't make Rand the Draggon.

[Guest Majsju]

"Something is wrong here. Something holds me. You are here. Have you the banner?"

 

Break it down. First, "Something is wrong here. Something holds me."

This indicates that they should be able to go on unhindered. That something is wrong measn that it is out of the ordinary. Had the banner Always been a requirement Hawkwing would not have waited til he spotted Rand until he realized what the problem was.

 

"You are here. have you the banner."

The first comment, "You are here", more or less says flat out that the Dragon himself is not a requirement for the Heroes to act, in that case Hawkwing would not have made such a comment.

 

 

"You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set."

Pay attention to the bolded part: this is a specific moment, a keypoint in the pattern.

 

The banner does make rand the Dragon in the sense that it acknowledges him as such to the rest of the world. The Wheel is making damn sure that Rand can't get away this time, it even displays his fight against Ishy all over the Almoth Plain. We also saw that when rand acknowledged himself in public, the false Dragons were removed from the field.

 

Rand can be the Dragon how much he wants, until the world learns about that it doesn't mean very much in the greater conflict. It's crucial that the Dragon is out and about.

[Minnea]

A bit late I return to my post... and way has it grown past my original question.

 

I fully agree that the Banner might not be necessary for the Heroes to follow. They might not even has to follow the Dragon next time... what if, say, the hormblower has changed allegiance (willingly or not)?

 

But why can't we for a minute (or three) stop and think: What if the Banner has to be there for the Heroes to act - and it isn't?

For that matter, what if they have to follow the Dragon, but Mat blows the Horn, the Heroes appear - and Rand isn't there just then?

 

So far in the series noone has even voiced the problem of getting hold of the Horn, then get it to Mat. And they certanly has not even thought about if there are more things to "fulfill" considering using it. Have they even (more than Mat) thougt about how, where and when?

 

At Falme the Heroes disappeared after one battle. Will they continue to do so? And if so, can Mat call them back again to the next battle, or is the chance then "forfeit" for the rest of TG? If the Heroes can appear only once in TG, then they better plan for exactly when...

[Guest cwestervelt]

Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing's guantleted fist. "I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself. We will drive these invaders out for you." His warhorse pranced, and he looked around, frowning. "Something is wrong here. Something holds me." Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gase on Rand. "You are here. Have you the banner?" A murmer ran through those behind him.

 

"Yes." Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon's banner. It filled his hands and hung almost to his stallion's knees. The murmer among the heroes rose.

 

"The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters," Artur Hawkwing said. "You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon." Hurin made a faint sound as if his throat had seized

 

Unfortunately, Majsju didn't include all of the key elements of the quote and thus changed the context. He is also making too much out of the statement "The weave of this moment is set" while disregarding just about everyting else in the dialog.

 

Lets redo the break down.

 

"Something is wrong here, something holds me. You are here, have you the banner?"

 

That part is relatively self explanatory. The Dragon isn't enough, the banner is missing and that is what is wrong. No Banner, no action from the Heroes.

 

"You are here, the banner is here. The weave of this moment is set."

 

All required items are in place to proceed at that time. Nothing in there suggests that the next time the Horn is used, the same elements won't be required before the weave of that moment is set.

 

"We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

You might not see anything interesting there, but I do. "And the Dragon," is an afterthought, not the primary requirement. The Heroes must follow the Banner first, the Dragon second. The order of the requirements would indicate that, in the event of a one time requirement, it would be the Dragon that was the add on here.

[kittydesmond]

nicely put. I agree.

[Jellybelly]

Are you seriously implying that the banner, a piece of cloth, is more important than the man it announces?