The Dragon Banner

[Guest cwestervelt]

No. I'm not saying the banner is more important than the Dragon. The Banner and the Dragon each have roles, each are important, and they are not the same.

 

Read Hawkwings words. "We We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon."

 

He flat out says that they must follow the banner. That statement put more emphasis on the Banner than it does on the Dragon. The Banner represents the Dragon. So following the Banner means they are following the Dragon. It also allows the heroes to be summoned and used anywhere the Dragon Banner is flown. It also allows the Dragon himself to be somewhere else and doing something else.

[Llewin]

Additionally, the Dragon Banner is definitely not simple 'a piece of cloth' read the description given of it Eye of the World, it was obviously made in some kind of special way...

[Jellybelly]

Yeah, well, Avendesora was made in a special way and is still just a tree.

 

Cwestervelt, as I see it, Hawkwing's words do not support the notion that the Heroes depend on the banner to act. In fact, I am nearly a hundred per cent certain that Jordan has commented on this, saying that the banner is a special requirement for Falme. Even so, Hawkwing does not really say anything other than state the fact that at Falme, at that very moment, they need to follow the banner, simply because the pattern needs the Dragon to proclaim himself. The way he phrases it is due to dramatic effect on Jordan's part, of that I have no doubt. It is a climax of the story so far, it is proven beyond doubt to the reader that Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

[Llewin]

I'm gonna have to disagree.

 

Avendesora (or Chora trees in general) are more than 'just trees' They were created for a specific purpose beyond the purpose of a normal tree... Normal trees serve to recycle the air our planet needs, as well as providing shelter for some animals, helping to keep the soil around them secured from wind and water deterioration, etc...

 

Chora trees do these things, I am sure, but in addition they also create an aura of peace and tranquility, helping those humans and perhaps simple animals around them to have stress free moments and more easily enjoy the world around them...

 

A typical (normal) banner serves to notify the fighters on a field of battle of the location of 1. a certain important individual or small group of indivuals/leaders and 2. serve as a rallying point during a conflict.

 

The Dragon Banner, made in a way which appears to be 'special' could just as easily have special properties, much as Chora trees have special properties...

 

Note, i did not say it DOES have them but that it could have them.

 

 

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Regarding the second comment,

 

Even so, Hawkwing does not really say anything other than state the fact that at Falme, at that very moment, they need to follow the banner, simply because the pattern needs the Dragon to proclaim himself. The way he phrases it is due to dramatic effect on Jordan's part, of that I have no doubt. It is a climax of the story so far, it is proven beyond doubt to the reader that Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

 

I dont think that makes any kind of logical sense. You are putting forward that the most obvious interpretation of that passage is that it only applies to that one moment. There is no indication what so ever that your assertion is correct.

 

If we take the text at face value it does not confirm or deny that the use of the dragon banner is a one time requirement. Given that fact it makes more logical sense that the given requirements apply in all conditions until proven otherwise.

[Guest cwestervelt]

I've read just about everything that I can find that contains comments from RJ. Nothing that I have come across says anything to that effect. About the only thing I can find right now is that the Banner and Horn were hidden because of the fortellings that made up the Prophesies.

 

What makes having the Banner a requirement so difficult to accept? Why constrain the heroes so that they can only be used in the presense of the Dragon himself?

[Guest Majsju]

The banner was LTT's personal banner. From the way it's described, it was most probably made for him, as AOL should have had that tecnology available. The people of the 3rd Age thinks it looks weird because they are not familiar with a little thing called printing, when they make banners it's good ol' thread and needle.

 

Now, the banner was made before the AOL, ie it predates the banner.

 

What would be the purpose of making waving the banner around a constant requirement? It would only cause difficulties. It would not prevent the shadow from using it, they could wave the banner just as well as anyone from Team Light.

 

Having the banner as a requirement for that specific event serves a purpose, it forces Rand to go to battle with the banner raised, it forces the chain of events that leads to him being proclaimed all across the land, and striking the false dragons down.

 

Having banner and/or Rand as a constant requirement serves no purpose.

 

And as for why the banner and the horn where hidden together, isn't it quite obvious that anyone who understood the prophecies would do the same? They knew the Dragon would be reborn to fight the last battle. They created the Eye and hid the banner there for him to find. Now, with the horn they have a great weapon against the shadow. Who's best suited to get his hands on that? Right, the guy who's destined to fight the DO. Of course they could have taken the horn with them, and used it everytime a bunch of trollocs threatened them, but had they done that they would not only have risked losing the horn, but losing it straight into the hands of the enemy. Sounds like a bad idea to me.

[mightisright]

I think if the Dragon is around the heros defer to him. He is first among them. If the banner is around they must follow it. OR it was simply a condition for announcing Rand as the Dragon because the pattern required it. I could also see both being true. It a point we really can debate all day but the writing doesn't make it conclusive in either direction.

[eldar89]

The text doesn't make it clear either way, both sides can be argued effectively because every time I read a point/counterpoint to the permanence of the Dragon/Dragon Banner requirement I can see the merits of it based on how you interpret what happens at Falme. As to the Pattern being a powerful machine rather than being sentient, this would make sense, it must have a set pattern it has to follow, or else how could Foretelling or Min's ability be possible? This is a point in favor of the "one time only" requirement theory that the Pattern was forcing the DR to announce himself to the world, constraining heroes who are BOUND to it to wait for the Banner and the presence of the Dragon to act. The most evidence from how I read it points to a one-time requirement as they must follow the horn for the moment, but since it does not indicate that this does or does not happen every time, there is no real way to tell if it is indeed a one-time thing or not. My theory is that in the past when the heroes were summoned they became accustomed to having the Dragon lead them since he is an obvious choice, and when he is "undead" and part of the heroes himself, chances are he has his banner with him just as Hawkwing had his sword and Birgitte her bow, therefore the requirement may be psychological and not even a requirement, regardless of whether Hawkwing said it was a "must". I tend to believe that the pattern wove itself out in the past so many times in order to create this psychological need for the Banner and the Dragon so that at that point in Falme it is a "must" for Hawkwing and the rest of the group. Why else would none of the rest of the group speak up about the compulsion to follow Hawkwing, for example? Why did he lead the group under the Dragon? Was this another requirement? Perhaps they were used to a chain of command over hundreds of thousands of years and likely a heck of a lot more, it became so deeply ingrained in their subconscious that if they did not follow this predilection that it would not feel right. This would explain why they could follow the Shadow if the Horn was blown by a DF because they are only psychologically motivated to follow the Dragon/Dragon Banner, hence they can be forced by the hornblower to follow a different banner. To sum it up, my theory covers these bases: The Pattern set up the psychological requirement of a chain of command that existed so long they feel compelled to follow it ("we must follow the Banner. And the Dragon."), the Shadow can use the heroes because the need is not physical, merely mental, but the Pattern hasn't let them in the series so far because it doesn't fit the Pattern, and either the one-time need/continuous need for the Dragon Banner and the Dragon to be present for the heroes to take action, because the Pattern set up Falme for millenia beforehand so it would be continuous, but since it is not physically needed, just a perceived or mental need it is not necessarily permanent, perhaps a one-time deal whereby the next time if Rand/LTT is not present or the Dragon Banner is not there, the heroes will fight regardless as the physical need to interfere in order to set the Pattern right (their main purpose to begin with) will become their priority over the psychological need to have either the Banner or the Dragon present to fight for Light. Since Falme is an example where both needs coincided, they could not take action until the requirement was met but that's not to say it needs to be met at later hornblowings. *phew* glad I'm done with that little theory lol.

[Jellybelly]

Well, the argument that the horn predates the banner with thousands of years kind of destroys the constant requirement faction, wouldn't you say?

 

In addition, Llewin, I have to disagree with you on most every point. The chora trees might be special to the extent that they have the soothing qualities we know they have, but it does not go any further than that. They are not magical trees of Life, as legend has made the one surviving tree out to be. In the same way, the banner might be special in that the emblem on it is made in a way unfamiliar to Third Agers, as Majsju pointed out.

 

Nor is there anything that suggest that your assumption about the banner being a constant requirement is true. Only because we have seen it be a requirement does not mean that it always is. Especially not when you take Hawkwing's surprise into account. It is obvious to the most casual observer that Hawkwing did not expect to be restrained when he was called by the Horn.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Hawkwing's surprise? He knew exactly what the issue was that constrained him, so it wasn't an out of the ordinary requirement. The surprise was simply a Dragon with no banner.

[Jellybelly]

The logic that the Heroes of the Horn should be constrained by an object that was made only three thousand years ago seems very flawed to me.

[Hoop Snake]

Yes, it is definately not a constant requirement. Hawkwing said himself that he has faced the Dragon as often as not, so please explain to me why he would be riding under the Dragon banner as he rides out to kill him? Other than that, all evidence points to the fact that the pattern devised the situation at Falme to proclaim Rand as the Dragon, and the Dragon banner being there was essential to that.

[Luckers]

You're placing too much significance on the idle words of one man. Lets not forget that first and foremost, despite whatever else they are, the heroes are still human--it was for thematic reasons that Hawkwing requested the banner... nothing else. He merely wanted to set the mood. If the banner or even the dragon had been a requirement in any way he would have demanded it straight up, not pause and go "hmmm i feel that something is missing... ah, the banner. Yes, that would make everything feel cool."

[Hoop Snake]

I would disagree on that point - I don't think a man who is about to fight a battle would really be that worried about aesthetics. At least he didn't insist Mat played "Eye of the Tiger" on the Horn of Valere. But anyway, unless Hawkwing or the Pattern bring out a running commentary of the books, I don't think it will be proven one way or the other.

[Luckers]

Why not... in fact, i would say that men who are riding into battle insist on the aesthetics of the momen more then others. Battle cry's, banners--nationalistic pride and the symbols for which we fight are a massive part of a battle.

[Guest cwestervelt]

Yes' date=' it is definately not a constant requirement. Hawkwing said himself that he has faced the Dragon as often as not, so please explain to me why he would be riding under the Dragon banner as he rides out to kill him? Other than that, all evidence points to the fact that the pattern devised the situation at Falme to proclaim Rand as the Dragon, and the Dragon banner being there was essential to that.[/quote']

 

It is almost guaranteed that Hawkwing was alluding to times when both of them were mortal at the same time. After all, it was at least 2 Ages since the last time they were summoned by the Horn.