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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Heaven forbid this happening, BUT what if...


42Bonzo88

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Jörmungandr killed Thor.

 

I feel the need to mention the following detail:

 

According to the Prose Edda, Odin took Loki's three children, Fenrisúlfr, Hel and Jörmungandr. He tossed Jörmungandr into the great ocean that encircles Midgard. The serpent grew so big that he was able to surround the Earth and grasp his own tail, and as a result he earned the alternate name of the Midgard Serpent or World Serpent. Jörmungandr's arch enemy is the god Thor.

 

So along the lines of Norse mythology, Perrin would be killed by the Great Serpent. A Forsaken maybe, or Black Ajah?

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So along the lines of Norse mythology, Perrin would be killed by the Great Serpent. A Forsaken maybe, or Black Ajah?
The World Serpent, not the Great Serpent. Close to the Great Serpent, though, and WoT has one of them. In which case, does that mean Perrin will be killed by time (old age)? Or maybe the serpent that grew so big that it surrounded the world is a metaphor for the Dragon Reborn - the Dragon being a serpent and Rand's influence spreading around the world. Rand kills Perrin. Also, while Ituralde is called the Wolf, Fenrir had previously bitten off Tyr's hand. If Rand=Tyr, then Semi=Fenrir, so that's who Mat should be afraid of....but we're just reading far too much into it here. Anyone else fancy a go?
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The ring, symbolizing the Aes Sedai, is a serpent biting its own tail.

 

So, BA, probably.

 

Everybody needs to beware of Semi.  Her 'revelation' about Rand hearing LTT ( or any other past life ) comes under the heading of 'confusion to the enemy' more than cosmic truth, I think.

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I also think Rand will be turned to the Dark.  What has really bolstered this theory recently for me was the thread "Disappointing Forsaken" (or something like that), and a similar thread that BobTDwarf and I shouted at each other several years ago.

 

What it boils down to for me is that Dark has been so thoroughly defeated again and again, throughout all 11 books. They've been backstabbing at best, inept at worst.  What can Dark POSSIBLY do in book 11 to make the struggle seem worthwhile?  The answer to that is the Dark Rand theory.

 

In other words, Dark has to come out of nowhere, and make a credible case that they could win TG.  Does really anyone believe this?  Probably not?  Light is supposed to win out in the end.  But in epic stories it is the QUALITY of the stuggle, not the QUANTITY, that makes the story meaningful.  So Dark has essentially the first 1/3 of AMoL to go from pretender to contender.  Taim is obviously part of the picture.  So is Dark's so far unsuccessful attempts to capture Elayne.  The "Dark Rand" theory is only one possible way for the story to go, but to me makes the most sense. 

 

 

 

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Yet the Dragon is needed for the Light to win...

 

Wait, didn't he have a link with Moridin going? If they swapped bodies, Moridin would be able to deal massive damage to the forces of the Light simply by being in Rand's body and ordering them around, whereas Rand (as Moridin) would be expected to lead Shadowspawn and Forsaken that would stab him in the back regardless of who he is.

 

It'd also technically put the vast majority of forces Rand has gathered so far in service of the Dark, giving them a vast advantage until Rand (as the Dragon) manages to convince them otherwise. I see Mat (and possibly Perrin) play a pivotal role in getting 'true' Rand into the heart of the forces of the Light for a showdown with Moridin, as those two are one of the very few he will be able to convince who he really is (childhood memories).

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If the whole body swap thing proves to hold any water, that'll probably be when it LOOKS like Rand has turned Dark.  But, it won't really be Rand.

 

Jordan seemed to believe that things were looking very bad for team Light.  Since he wrote it, I've gotta believe that there are doings afoot that we just haven't spotted, yet.

 

But, like I said in another thread, from where I sit, team Dark looks more like the Keystone Kops than any real threat.

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I think that was RJ serving up some Kool Aid to make the Dark/Light conflict seem more balanced than it was.  Actually, wasn't he even going so far as to make a case that Dark was winning?  That Dark was somehow going to win TG by default?

 

And also, there is that Rand/Moridin connection to be resolved...

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Guest Dreadlord

QUOTE

What it boils down to for me is that Dark has been so thoroughly defeated again and again, throughout all 11 books

UNQUOTE

 

Im not sure I agree with you there. What victories has the Light had? The only credible victories the Light has had that I can think of is sorting the weather out and the Cleansing. Most of the Forsaken have been given another body, so not many permanent victories there. And they have begun to touch on the Black Ajah. Thats all I can think of.

 

Comparing those to the Shadows victories makes me think the Shadow are way more prepared for Tarmon Gaidon than the Light.

 

The Black Tower is corrupted. Rand wanted it to be a weapon, but it is a weapon Rand cant really control. Taim has stained it with Darkfriends and, although Logain has a faction of followers, there is no way to tell if any of those work for Taim. Its like a Black Ajah in the Black Tower, only worse. Rand can barely use the Black Tower now, for fear of being betrayed again.

 

Then theres the Black Ajah, which is so deeply hidden and well organised that the Light can never be truly rid of unless every single Aes Sedai took new Oaths on an Oath Rod. And of course we wont see that happen.

 

Then there are Darkfriends in general, which are everywhere, in every nation, army and organisation. Even the Aiel has Darkfriends, although probably not many.

 

And then theres Rand himself. Look at how damaged he is. He has 2 wounds that wont heal, only one hand, he is partially insane, his eyes are damaged, and he is almost incapable of trusting anyone anymore. The Champion of the Light really is on his knees, and the Dark One hasnt even taken a glancing blow directly.

 

When, if ever, has the Dark been thoroughly defeated? The Dark has done waaaaay more to slow the Light down than the Light has to slow the Dark down. If you look far enough back in history, if Ishamael hadnt made Artur Hawkwing do some of the things he did (wage war on Aes Sedai, refuse Healing on his deathbed) then the Light would be a lot better off. The Seanchan prophecies have been tampered with to make them think Rand will serve them. And I cannot help thinking that Masemas madness is somehow the Shadows doing, and that contributes to a bad reputation for Rand.

 

Everything wrong with this world is the Shadows doing. They are winning.

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Bashere.

 

Min has a viewing about something dark in his aura.  I think either he is a DF, or he will become one for the love of Diera.  Alternately, Diera could be the DF, but I doubt it considering her wounds taken in defending the seal that Bashere has in his keeping.  I could very well see Bashere trading his seal in exchange for his wife or daughter though.

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Scapegoats are really convenient, but they're the refuge of those who refuse to face reality.

 

The problems in Randland are human problems.  Casued entirely by humans being silly, stupid, selfish and greedy.

 

The Forsaken just provide an excuse for those people to give-in to their weaknesses.

 

What victories has the Light scored?

 

1.  Despite Forsaken efforts to keep conflict going, the Seanchan and Rand are not currently still killing each other.

2.  Perrin's obsession with Faile has led to Masema's cutthroats and the bulk of the Shaido destroying each other.  Delivering a bunch of channelers into Seanchan hands where they will make very effective weapons.

3.  All of Rand's forces have had the opportunity to blood themselves and shakedown into functional units.

4.  Elayne has attained the Lion Throne without destroying Andor in the process.

5.  Elayne has also captured one of the nastier bunches of BA and DF around.

6. Despite everything they've tried, Mat is now back in control of an even larger and stronger Band.

7. Semirhage is now in custody.

8. The rebellion in Tear has ended.

9. Food is successfully being distributed to those in need.

 

There are others as well, but those serve to show that the Dark isn't really succeeding like they could be.

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Bashere.

 

Min has a viewing about something dark in his aura.  I think either he is a DF, or he will become one for the love of Diera.  Alternately, Diera could be the DF, but I doubt it considering her wounds taken in defending the seal that Bashere has in his keeping.  I could very well see Bashere trading his seal in exchange for his wife or daughter though.

 

I think the battles in Altara proved to be a turning point for Bashere.  After the whole incident with Callandor, I think he started having real doubts about Rand.

 

There is definitely a Dark presence in those around him.  That Dark influence is rather skillfully playing on his doubts to maneuver him into outright betrayal.

 

Egwene - Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him.

 

I think that man will turn out to be Bashere.  Or possibly, Demandred acting through Bashere.

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I always favoured Taim, myself.

 

In any case we know Bashere is not a darkfriend--he has posession of one of the seals, and a command goes out to take it from him by the shadow. I doubt he'd become one either.

 

No, that prophecy refers to his death, to my mind. His and Tenobia's. We know Perrin and Faile end up with the Broken Crown, so it has to happen sooner or later--my guess, during Rand's meeting with the borderlanders--and more significantly, with the thirteen Aes Sedai with them.

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Back to the original post,

I don;t think any major characters will switch sides. The Forsaken are all doomed to execution if they are caught no matter what oaths they swear and if any of the Light guys wanted to switch, I think it would have happened by now.

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Back to the original post,

I don;t think any major characters will switch sides. The Forsaken are all doomed to execution if they are caught no matter what oaths they swear and if any of the Light guys wanted to switch, I think it would have happened by now.

thank you finally someone who agrees with me hurray!

but to the people who think rand and mat will turn... shame on you guys thats not gonna happen, but i never considered perrin turing... i really dont think he will mind you but to save faile (again) i think he would even make a deal with the shadow to savve her... but again again, he wont turn.

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