Will Rand ACTUALLY die on the slopes of Shayol Ghul?

[Myndrunner]

What characters in the series have died and in some way live again?

 

Mat - hung but revived.

Ishamel - Killed but then brought back

Aginor - Dead as fried chiken but then remade into Aran'Gar

Balthalmel - Death by Greenpeace, but then remade into Osan'Gar

Lews Therin - Drops a mountain on his head, but now lives in Rand's mind.

Gaidal Cain - he's an ugly baby somewhere now

Birgitte - She and Cain die and live again many times in the cycle.

 

These are many different examples of how one character can "die" and then come back to life.  Mat's example is much less dramatic yet is still technically dying and being brought back to life.  Perhaps touching a bit on Christ's ressurection, Rand may very well die on the slopes of Shayol Ghul and be brought back by the Power Puff girls (aka, Elayne, Min, Aviendha). 

 

Or, he could become a voice in someone else's head.  Regardless, my humble thoughts believe that, with the WoT spinning like a Ferris Wheel, all characters come back eventually, though with different names and such.  -ANYWAYS.....that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.  Dennis Miller

[Majsju]

Mat did not die in Rhuidean. He was dying, but that is not the same as being dead.

 

Cain was reborn, which is very different from being brought back to life. Otherwise every single person we have met would have been "brought back to life", since we are dealing with a world where reincarnation exists.

[Myndrunner]

I may need to read it again, but I recall it seemed that Mat was dead at the time Rand found him, but Rand brought him back with the Two Rivers equivalent of CPR....or maybe the power.  That's the problem with 12 books.....keeping track of all the events.

 

Are you suggesting that Mat was only "mostly dead" instead of all dead?  There is a difference....

 

- Shayol Ghul Steve

[Majsju]

I would say dying rather than "mostly dead", since 'mostly' can mean pretty  much whatever you want to.

 

If he had been dead, there is no way Rand could have just CPR-ed him back to life, and then Mat would have been able to walk away as if nothing had happened just a couple of minutes later.

[DemandredFO]

Myndrunner; just so you Aginor became osangar and subsequently died again.  Balthamel became Aran'gar because Shaitan had a sense of homor

[Luckers]

You're trying to split hairs again.

 

Strength is inherent capacity to manifest energy, to endure, and to resist.

Vitality is a capacity for survival or for the continuation of a meaningful or purposeful existence.

 

Synonyms.  Both describe pretty accurately the benefits a Warder is supposed to receive from the bond.

 

What? Bob, a Warder gains a degree of strength and vitality from the bond, but that remains constant no matter how many people bond him. What we are speaking of is the bond-holders ability to draw strength from their warder. Aes Sedai have the ability to draw their warders strength into themselves even unto the death of the Warder.

 

Rand does not have that. I am not splitting hairs there, it is simply a fact. He cannot draw the strength of his bond-holders.

 

You really need to start reading before you post.

[Bob T Dwarf]

You're obviously not illiterate.  I guess it's simply that you can't comprehend.

 

You're the only one talking about what the AS get from a bond.

 

The rest of us are attempting to work out what the Warder gets from the bond.  And how that would work out in Rand's case.

 

Since Warders retain strength and vitality to a greater extent than unbonded men of their age, they must derive those benefits from the bond.  ie. they draw strength, vitality or both from the bond.

[Desora]

My theory on Min’s vision of Aviendha having four children at once, but there being “something odd” isn’t that Aviendha will have quadruplets, but that she will have one, Min will have one, and we know Elayne is having twins.

 

I don’t think Rand will die, with that “To live, you must die” answer he got.  I’ve always thought for Rand to live, LTT must die.  If I remember Min had a vision on Rand where two faces were diverging or converging, where one is supposed to die.  I think TG may be a close call for Rand, though.  There’s a Dream that Egwene had in A Crown of Swords that I think may be from after TG. 

 

“Logain, laughing stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand’s body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.

 

A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female.  A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness.  A dark young man held an object in his hand that shone so brightly she could not see what it was.” (pg 250-251, CoS)

 

From the first paragraph, my guess is Logain will be involved in Rand’s death, resurrection, or disappearance (as in Rand goes in hiding to enjoy the rest of his life)

 

The second paragraph I’m not sure of, it may not even be Rand; or it may be the scratch from Fain’s dagger, I don’t think that had happened yet, but I don’t think it is because of the second part.  The hawk could be Alivia or Cadsuane, but I don’t remember them referred to as having hawkish characteristics.  The hawk is often Berelain, but if it’s Rand on the pier, I don’t think it will be her.  Also, how would Egwene be tied to the hawk?

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

I'll try my hand at interpretation as well! Whee!

 

“Logain, laughing stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Rand’s body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.

 

A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female.  A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness.  A dark young man held an object in his hand that shone so brightly she could not see what it was.” (pg 250-251, CoS)

 

K, here goes nothing.. Maybe literally, we'll see.

 

Rand tries to seal the Bore again, with help from some fellow channelers of course.  They seal it better than old Lews, but Lews knew how regardless. Now that saidin is clean, the seal is clean. No one will know the Dark One or war even existed in a few millenia. Logain is giddy over the whole thing(I can't believe Logain would do anything to harm Rand.  He'd be killed instantly by anyone who knew, and since he's destined for glory... that can't happen). Rand's dying quick and Egwene can't help.  She'd kill him if she tried.

 

The hawk has got to be Seanchan, so Alivia is a safe bet.  We know she'll be there with Rand in the end, and we know that the Seanchan and the White Tower will somehow make a pact(from Egwene's dreams). It might not be Alivia, but it won't be Berelain, so it has to be Seanchan somehow.  Rand is, again, fading out.  Maybe he even goes vegetable on us for awhile.  Brain-deadness might cure him of his alter-ego, Mr.Telemon. Voices of joy and sadness.  The Aiel, what little remains of them, sing in joy for the end of Tarmon Gaidon and in mourning over the dying of their Car'a'carn. The dark man with something bright is Narishma with Callandor. He will follow after. What the hell does that mean? Transmigration? Who knows.Obviously he does something to Rand with the power that causes him to live again and Narishma to follow after. Maybe linked with Alivia, that'd take care of that at the same time.

 

 

 

Anything I left out, or is anything unplausible? Lemme know. :\  Sometimes people ignore my posts and I have to wait for someone to say something about mine, and patience is not my friend.

[Luckers]

You're obviously not illiterate.  I guess it's simply that you can't comprehend.

 

You're the only one talking about what the AS get from a bond.

 

The rest of us are attempting to work out what the Warder gets from the bond.  And how that would work out in Rand's case.

 

Since Warders retain strength and vitality to a greater extent than unbonded men of their age, they must derive those benefits from the bond.  ie. they draw strength, vitality or both from the bond.

 

Actually, my comment was a response to someone elses assertion that spoke of Rand gaining the same things that an Aes Sedai would get from a bond. Which is why i directly stated that Rand would not get those benefits, and also why i suggested that you should re-read my post before continuing to comment.

 

Furthermore, no one here is attempting to ascertain what Warders get from the bond--that is well known... i myself stated it in the very post you are responding too. And no one ever was attempting to do that. Myself, Trakand, Dreadlord... all were commenting on the same thing--whether Rand gets the ability to draw strength from his bondmates.

 

I'm left confused as to what you are trying to achieve here. Frankly, i think you owe me an apology.

 

[Predic]

i always thought rand would die at at the last battle.

I thinf that mins viewing of avis baby would men that min will get pregnent with twins and those twins and elayne's twins will adopt/bond each others as first sisters. with avi acting the parts as mother in the wise ones ceremony. thus four babies not quite right aka mnins viewing.

plus it keeps the symetry of avi, min and elaynes relationship.( of course this would have to happen in a scene set some twenty years later )

 

any thoughts!!!

 

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

I think she has four at once, but some are his and some are Lews Therin's. :D That'd be wierd, huh?

 

Seriously, though, I think Avienda has all four at once. Min said she would, she didn't say "Avienda will have 4 of Rand's babies, but two will come out of me!"  It just doesn't make sense.

[Myndrunner]

I think that a major character is going to buy it in the first part of the book, to make us readers worry that none of them are safe at TG. 

 

Rand very well may live, but the Dragon will die on the slopes of Shayol Ghul.  I think it will be LTT that gets burned out of his head somehow.  Remember that Rand asked the Alfins how to win at TG and survive.  He knows the answer and is gearing up for it.  Will it happen?

 

-Mynd

[Nethran Thaimal]

I forgot this in my big thingy that no one has mentioned me writing despite my request that they do so. :\ I think Rand burns himself out.  That'd put a stop to the Rand storyline and the possibility that people will want more of him as a main hero character.  No LTT in his head, no Ta'veren(since he's no longer needed), and no longer the strongest male channeler.  We have no evidence to support that's being burned out is healable, either.  In fact, we have some little efvidence against it.

[Luckers]

We have no evidence to support that's being burned out is healable, either.  In fact, we have some little efvidence against it.

 

Actually we do have evidence that burning out can be healed--Aside from the insane likelyhood that Cyndane was--and I can post the evidence for that if you like--we have the fact that Irgain, Sashelle and Ronaille were healed.

 

Its an easy thing to miss since Rand did it to them--they themselves, and those around them all term it being 'stilled'--but in terms of the description it is not the knife sharp cutting motion that Nynaeve describes as 'stilling'. Rand 'crushed them in fists of spirit', their abilities were crushed, not severed. Intentionally done or not, that's burning out. Add that to Cyndane--not to mentioned the need for Moiraine to be healed--and it's pretty well set in stone.

 

As for evidence against it, there is none. Oh, it feels more complete than being stilled, but the evidence above speaks directly to that not being an issue in terms of healing it.

[Rahela Sedai]

Can being ta'veren go away? I didn't think so, I've always assuemd it's something you are born as and die as.

But the burning out is a good theory, in a way he dies because then he can't touch the Source. But maybe he'll be happy to have LTT out of his head and will settle down with his little harem.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Actually, in one of his QoTW, Jordan did say that nobody is born taveren.  His remark ended with something like, "Can you imagine being around a taveren who was teething?"

[Myndrunner]

This beggs the question, who is the true Taveren? Rand or Lews?  And how come Rand only started hearing voices when Moiraine dragged him out of Two Rivers??

[Kadere]

Rand is true Ta'veran. You are not born Ta'veran the Pattern picks the tools that it needs when it needs them to keep the balance. You can stop being Ta'veran, this happens with the Pattern no longer needs you to keep it straight.

 

Lews is not the true Ta'veran because Lews is a voice inside of Rand's head, not Rand or the Dragon Reborn.

 

Rand started hearing voices because the Taint has had an effect on him causing him to hear Lews in his head. This probably would have happened regardless of Moiraine dragging him out of the Two Rivers provided he gained some control of the Power and survived long enough for the effects to take place.

[Guest The Thin Inn Keeper]

There will never be a 'is he dead is he not' debate however because Alanna, Egwene, Aviendha and Min will be able to quell any doubts.

 

Ahhhh... but then everyone thought Moiraine had snuffed it when she went through the doorway. Lan became suicidal/even more more of a happy chap. We're always told that that's what happens when a Warder's AS dies.... So, the harem wouldn't necessarily know what that Rand was alive, and in fact, might "feel" that he had died.

 

What if something similar happens to Rand?

[Luckers]

There will never be a 'is he dead is he not' debate however because Alanna, Egwene, Aviendha and Min will be able to quell any doubts.

 

Ahhhh... but then everyone thought Moiraine had snuffed it when she went through the doorway. Lan became suicidal/even more more of a happy chap. We're always told that that's what happens when a Warder's AS dies.... So, the harem wouldn't necessarily know what that Rand was alive, and in fact, might "feel" that he had died.

 

What if something similar happens to Rand?

 

It's true that severing does snap the bond in a way that feels to the bondees like the death of their bondmate, but we do know thats not accurate with Rand. Prophecy makes it more than clear that one way or another, Rand will die. It's why i support the bodyswap, its the only thing that permits everything that occurs.

 

Or hell, it could be accurate with Rand, maybe he is severed at some stage--it would allow for Egwene's dream about women around a funeral pier raising their voices in grief about a man who was not dead yet--but that being said, the death does come. Seperate prophecies confirm that. The way i would work it in is if in the bodyswap Moridin in Rand's body was severed, before being tracked down by Alivia and Rand and killed.

[Desora]

We have no evidence to support that's being burned out is healable, either.  In fact, we have some little efvidence against it.

 

Actually we do have evidence that burning out can be healed--Aside from the insane likelyhood that Cyndane was--and I can post the evidence for that if you like--we have the fact that Irgain, Sashelle and Ronaille were healed.

 

Its an easy thing to miss since Rand did it to them--they themselves, and those around them all term it being 'stilled'--but in terms of the description it is not the knife sharp cutting motion that Nynaeve describes as 'stilling'. Rand 'crushed them in fists of spirit', their abilities were crushed, not severed. Intentionally done or not, that's burning out. Add that to Cyndane--not to mentioned the need for Moiraine to be healed--and it's pretty well set in stone.

 

As for evidence against it, there is none. Oh, it feels more complete than being stilled, but the evidence above speaks directly to that not being an issue in terms of healing it.

 

Logain was healed to full strength, I seem to remember something being said from Siaun about Logain being as strong as before while she was weaker. I always thought that men could heal women from being stilled/burned out to what they were before and women could heal men likewise.  It would fit into the men and women working together theme.

[Nethran Thaimal]

As for evidence against it, there is none. Oh, it feels more complete than being stilled, but the evidence above speaks directly to that not being an issue in terms of healing it

 

I was thinking of Satelle Anan and the a'dam expirament.

[Bnots]

For some reason I've always had the feeling that Egwene's vision in the second arch of her acceptance ceremony--the one where Rand asks to be stabbed through the heart to save him from being turned--would turn out to be foreshadowing.  In that case, part of her character's growth/maturity over the entire series will be that she is willing to kill Rand for his own sake, when back then she wasn't. 

 

I envision some sort of plot whereby Egwene kills Rand by stabbing him through the heart.  This dumps LTT back into the pile of threads to be into the Pattern of some future age.  Meanwhile, Rand's bonds are held in "stasis" in some fashion.  The bonds are reattached to Rand's dead body, which "magically" bring him back to life--say, by virtue of there being three of them (excluding his bond with Alanna) and the strength of them due to the love Min, Elayne, and Aviendha have for him.  Maybe his children hold some thread of Rand that allows this all to take place?  No longer afflicted by LTT, Rand lives out the rest of his days with his wives and children.  Alivia plays some part obviously, and since this "heals death" after a fashion, we'll throw in Nynaeve too. 

 

No evidence really, but that's how I envision/(kinda) want it to happen, however sappy.  Given that we're talking fiction and magic, and Jordan's willingness to work "magic" into the story to suit his plot, I don't see that it's impossible for Rand to be brought back to life through things done with the One Power--as long as it's done in a way that makes some minimal amount of sense.

[sunshine + gasoline]

I certainly hope that Rand dies at the end and no revival lameness either. Don't get me wrong; Rand is my favorite character with Mat but I do love the martyr option to the story far above any sort of happy ending.

 

The whole point of the books so far has been on a price that must be payed, if this goes down a happy-go-lucky ending I must say I will be really disappointed.

 

Of course I expect Rand to be ready for rebirth as the Dragon in another age but  I do expect him to end the tragic hero in the end, much like Lews Therin before him.

 

It would also tie in nicely with the Jesus connections that are hinted at at times.