Taim: Third Age Born--New Chosen.

[OsaroLJ]

Except in the weekly question that was being done by Tor, he came right out and said Sammael is toast and will not be seen again.

 

Not entirely. He stated Sammael is toast, but I don't think he said he'd never come back.

[Kadere]

Q: Is Sammael dead dead, or 'he will never return dead'?

A: Sammael? [pronounce something like Sammy-el] Sammael is dead. He's dead. He could be reborn. In another life. Eithout knowing anything of Sammael. He's not going to be reincarnated, he's not going to show up again.

 

[Nethran Thaimal]

RJ ate the toast.  You will never see it again.

[Myndrunner]

I hear he spread "I can't believe it's not Balzamon" on it with Osen'Gar Marmylade. 

[Luckers]

Just throwing it out there. My scenario would be Taim would compulse a few Myrdraal who would convey phony orders to others and so on, if he weren't Chosen yet.

 

Except Moridin specifies that to achieve what was done, it had to be done through the Chosen Mark.

 

Q: Is Sammael dead dead, or 'he will never return dead'?

A: Sammael? [pronounce something like Sammy-el] Sammael is dead. He's dead. He could be reborn. In another life. Eithout knowing anything of Sammael. He's not going to be reincarnated, he's not going to show up again.

 

 

If i may ask, where is this from? Not that i disagree or anything, i find it highly unlikely Sammael would be recylced, and almost impossible that the man who sent the Trollocs into the Ways to be a recycled Sammael, I'm just curious.

[Rasta Ashaman]

Sammael? Mashadar got him; and Fain is Mashadar (in a way)

 

To continue this crazy theory re Fain ordering Fades & Trollocs:

 

- Fain has merged with Mordeth, which has unique abilities, and we don't know anything about their connection with Mashadar

- Sammael was 'toasted' by Mashadar in ACoS

- Mashadar was 'cleansed' in WH

- Fain/Mordeth had plenty of time between that to visit Shadar Logoth to 'recharge their Mashadarness' - and imbibe whatever Mashadar had left of the Sammy-toast

- Mordeth did know some illusion tricks (that buble he turned into when Rand and Mat met him), so he might turn into Sammy too

 

 

[Luckers]

RJ stated that Fain's power was not altered by the destruction of Shadar Logoth. Since we know Fain needs to torture Myrdraal into obeying him, we thereby know that it wasn't Fain.

 

Remember, simply appearing as a Forsaken is not enought to compel obedience from Shadowspawn. You must have an active link to the Dark One to achieve that.

[Kadere]

http://www.geocities.com/raina_sedai/creator.htm

 

Under "Forsaken." She doesn't give any sites of which book tours or q&a meetings she got all this from, but since I've seen like 95% of these same quotes on used by others and on other sites like theoryland, dragonmount, wotmania, etc. I take it to be legit.

[Charlz Guybon]

Actually, I fully agree that he was behind the Trolloc attack in KoD.  The fact that Moridin knows that the Fades were ordered is even more evidence of the Chosen Mark.

 

You don't move 100,000 Trollocs over 1000 leagues (from the Blight to Tear) without the Chosen Mark.  I just don't see how it being possible for someone who cannot reliably order one thousand Fades to move 1000 fists. Man, that's a whole lotta compulsion.

 

I do think it would be possible to move that many through the ways.

 

Our descriptions of the way show that travelers ancounter the first turnings almost immediately.  I have theorized that there is a Waygate in or near the Blight where the very first turing is Stedding Shangtai.  This being the case, any Fist of Trollocs entering the Ways at that gate would literally be leaving as the last of their group entered.  With so little time in transit, there would be nothing for Machin Shin to zero in on. 

 

An alternate theory I have been toying with is that when Shadar Logoth was destroyed, Mashadar entered the ways and one of three things happened.

 

1. It consumed Machin Shin

 

2. Machin Shin destroyed Mashadar

 

3. They merged in the manner of the Mordeth/Fain.

 

In the first case, Machin Shin moves very slowly so it may not be able to travel the Ways in the same manner MS did and therefore unless you entered the Ways right on top of it, you're safer than before.

 

Second, Machin Shin consumning all the evil of Aridhol would send it into hibernation, kind of like your father after Thanksgiving dinner.  It'll be back once it can button it's pants.

 

A merging of the two?  I don't even have a clue what the result of this scenario would be.  Were I a betting man, I'd have to go with not good.  Maybe something that could leave the Ways. 

 

At the beginning of CoT, Mat notices a mist moving across the harbor at Ebou Dar, against the wind, and I always assumed it was a bubble of evil the like of which was mentioned as hitting the Rahad earlier as well as the rebel army in Cairhien.  What if that's not it at all, what if the "horrible consequences" alluded to are that when the source was cleansed and SL destroyed, it provided a way for Mashadar/Shin to escape?

 

 

 

 

I agree it must have been Taim who ordered the Trollocs to Tear. I do like the idea of some weird merging of machin shin and mashadar however, sounds cool.

 

Oh, it's only 500 leagues from the Blight to Tear.

 

http://www.personal.ars-informatica.ca/paul/wot/wot.php?page=measures

[Myndrunner]

From what I have read on this thread, I am inclined to believe that Taim is not one of the current Forsaken/Chosen; however, he's not on the up and up.  I think that Taim plans to turn on Rand at TG, and we will have Red Ajah/Asha'man versus Green Ajah/Asha'man, with perhaps a battle between Taim and Logaine, with Logaine victorious. 

 

I like the theory that Logaine will become the leader of the Black Tower.  It makes the most sense in my mind in that there are few lands that would accept him as a leader from that whole False Dragon mess. 

 

Back to Taim, though.  Since we seem to agree that some of the Chosen are gone for good, toast as RJ puts it, the question that is clearly begged is "Who will replace them?"  Taim certainly has the attitude and aptitude to make a real nasty Chosen.

 

-Myndrunner

[Nethran Thaimal]

Here's a unique theory.  It was Aran'gar that send the trollocs and myrddraal.  Just a theory.

 

Moridin straightened himself in his chair, directing that stare at the rest of them. "That goes for all of you. Al'Thor is mine. You will not harm him in any way!"

 

Aran'gar took a sip of her wine. She had no objections to killing these two if she happened to come across them, but Moridin was going to be terribly disappointed over Rand al'Thor.

 

Someone used Illusion to pretend they were Sammael, so why not act as Sammael would to further disguise themselves in the action? Balthamel was never a general, but it doesn't take military genius to think that 100,000 trollocs and 100 myrddraal might be more than a match for a single man, regardless of his ability to channel.

 

It COULD NOT have been Taim. Taim is not one of the 13 Chosen, he was not alive in the Age of Legends, he never saw Sammael.  He wouldn't have know what he looked like to immitate him.  Balthamel/Aran'gar would have, and we know for a fact that he/she had no problems disobeying the Nae'blis on the order to stay away from Rand.

[Majsju]

Why would Aran'gar think that Demandred might have been behind it, if she had been responsible? Hiding her actions so well she even makes things up in her mind?

[Nethran Thaimal]

I must have missed that.. where does it say it?

[Majsju]

The exact same chapter you just quoted from.

[Cybertrolloc]

Why would Aran'gar think that Demandred might have been behind it, if she had been responsible? Hiding her actions so well she even makes things up in her mind?

Because Moridin's servants are telepathic? I don't think it's Arangar, but there's always some reason not to be able to take thoughts 100% at face value :(

[Myndrunner]

Perhaps they came from the DO himself!  Perhaps he is free!  Oh no!!!!!!!! :o

 

What was all that fading in and out business?  Everyone felt it about the same time.  Could that have been the final seal breaking?

[Majsju]

Perhaps they came from the DO himself!  Perhaps he is free!  Oh no!!!!!!!! :o

 

What was all that fading in and out business?  Everyone felt it about the same time.  Could that have been the final seal breaking?

 

When the last seal breaks, the world will notice quite a bit more than those ripples.

It was most likely just the DO flexing its muscles, so to speak.

[Luckers]

http://www.geocities.com/raina_sedai/creator.htm

 

Under "Forsaken." She doesn't give any sites of which book tours or q&a meetings she got all this from, but since I've seen like 95% of these same quotes on used by others and on other sites like theoryland, dragonmount, wotmania, etc. I take it to be legit.

 

I've encountered Raina Sedai before--mostly she's reliable though i can remember a time or two when her quotes have directly contradicted confirmed quotes--so be careful.

 

 

[aevogt]

 

 

I agree it must have been Taim who ordered the Trollocs to Tear. I do like the idea of some weird merging of machin shin and mashadar however, sounds cool.

 

Oh, it's only 500 leagues from the Blight to Tear.

 

http://www.personal.ars-informatica.ca/paul/wot/wot.php?page=measures

 

I can never get distances right.  Leagues, miles, you can have them both.  Give me a nice safe Kilometer or at worst a Kellicam.

 

I really like the merge theory, that's why I renamed my band The Black Fog.