Taim is Moridin? Help!

[Andrew the Great]

I have a friend who is nearly as into the series as I am, and we sometimes will discuss our views on various parts of the books. Recently, he came to me after rereading KOD, and said, "I have this crazy theory I HAVE to tell you about!"

 

Basically, the gist of it was that in the final chapter of KOD, the palace in the BT is covered w/ red and black (moridin's colors) and Taim knows things only a Forsaken should know. (See threads on Taim being Forsaken) So, he thinks that Taim is Moridin.

 

Something seems instantly wrong with this theory to me, and I said as much, but I still can't quite place it. I'm almost positive Taim isn't Moridin, but I can't think of anything to back me up. Anyone want to offer help? Why can't Taim be Moridin? Or is he Moridin? References to exact passages in the books are appreciated, as always.

[Cocaloch]

RJ said Taim was not a forsaken, I belive.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

he said taim wasn't demandred

[Snowy Dawn]

But the red and black tiles means that Taim is Moridin's man, yes? (That is that Moridin is his ``sponsor'' amongst the Forsaken.)

[Korin Caylin]

How would Taim be Moridin? When Moridin was Ishamael he had burning holes instead of a mouth and eyes but Taim was around for quite a bit longer than that. He had already declared himself the Dragon Reborn and was terrorizing Saldaea. If Taim was Moridin and also how could Taim be Moridin if Moridin always wears the cour'souvra and the other Forsaken know it yet Taim doesn't ever wear them.

 

 

Excuse me for being a newb. :P

[Guest Dreadlord]

All that needs to be said to put this theory down is this. Rand has a link to Moridin due to the crossing of balefires. Rand starts seeing Moridins face, blurry at first so he didnt know who it was, but in KoD he sees it clearly for the first time, and identifies it as the man who he sees in Shadar Logoth, ie Moridin. If Moridin is Taim, Rand would have realized it was Taim either right there at Shadar Logoth or when he sees the face clearly.

 

I really wish people would leave Taim alone, I don't think he is anyone elses alter ego at all.

[Mik]

Andrew; your friend is right.

 

(sorry this is so srhot, but keep an eye out for a thread called 'serpents nestle in the bossom-1'... I'll put it up in a few days)

[Luckers]

I agree with Dreadlord. Taim is his own man.

 

Beyond that, though, we know that Taim is not Moridin. Taim appeared before Moridin was recycled, Taim's methodology is blunt and direct, whilst Moridin's is subtle and based in philosophy, Taim's stated goals have directly contradicted Moridin's... so on, so forth. Taim is not Moridin.

[Korin Caylin]

So no body pays attention to my post where I just said that Taim was terrorizing Saldaea while Ishamael was dead?

 

... You jerks.

[Andrew the Great]

Thanks guys! I really appreciate all the responses on this!

[Cybertrolloc]

So no body pays attention to my post where I just said that Taim was terrorizing Saldaea while Ishamael was dead?

 

... You jerks.

For Moridin to be Taim now doesn't mean he had to be Taim for Taim's entire life ::)

[Kadere]

But on that Moridin wasn't reborn until ACoS, so he would have had to infeltrate the black tower, kill Taim (who already seemed to be acting pretty darkfriendish), and start posing as him.

 

But really the fact that Rand recognized the face of the man from Shadar Logoth, and us knowing that that man wasn't Taim pretty much nails this coffin shut.

[Mik]

Beyond that, though, we know that Taim is not Moridin. Taim appeared before Moridin was recycled...

 

But on that Moridin wasn't reborn until ACoS, so he would have had to infeltrate the black tower, kill Taim (who already seemed to be acting pretty darkfriendish), and start posing as him.

Just because you didn't see Moridin before RJ wanted him seen, doesn't say a thing about exactly when Ishamael was given new flesh (wouldn't want to call it a rebirth). A writer spins a tale to lead his readers around..not his characters. The hint on when Moridin is 'created' is in The Shadow Rising - Deceptions (how fitting) IMO.

 

Taim's methodology is blunt and direct, whilst Moridin's is subtle and based in philosophy, Taim's stated goals have directly contradicted Moridin's... so on, so forth.

Taim is blunt and hard to set an example for Rand & the men he leads. He's leading them the way he wants them to act. I guess you could call that a kind of psychological warfare... ;)

 

But really the fact that Rand recognized the face of the man from Shadar Logoth, and us knowing that that man wasn't Taim pretty much nails this coffin shut.

And the blue & gold dragons on his clothing shine so wierd because of the fabric...? All it takes is a bit of Power..yes.. the one only the wielder detects.

 

Taim is not Moridin

I like to think he is.

I guess time will tell.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Taim, a disguise Moridin weaves with the True Power? I doubt it, that would mean Moridin would be using the True Power not only exclusively, but constantly. I doubt even Ishamael/Moridin is THAT stupid. It would also mean that Taim would be using Saidin and the True Power AT THE SAME TIME every time Rand feels Taim embrace the Source, which to be honest we haven't seen any evidence to show that that is possible, and I would have thought from the PoVs we have had from Moridin we would have learned that, seeing as almost every time we look through Moridins eyes there is a reference to the True Power in his thoughts beyond the fact that he is channeling it.

[Luckers]

Just because you didn't see Moridin before RJ wanted him seen, doesn't say a thing about exactly when Ishamael was given new flesh (wouldn't want to call it a rebirth). A writer spins a tale to lead his readers around..not his characters. The hint on when Moridin is 'created' is in The Shadow Rising - Deceptions (how fitting) IMO.

 

We know there is a relative degree of time required for the transmigration process.  Ishamael died at the end of the third book, he couldn't have been recycled by the fourth book--indeed he couldn't have been recycled before we meet Taim. We meet Taim only two chapters after Aginor and Balthamel are finally recycled, and they died nearly half a year before Ishamael.

 

Quote from: Luckers

Taim's methodology is blunt and direct, whilst Moridin's is subtle and based in philosophy, Taim's stated goals have directly contradicted Moridin's... so on, so forth.

Taim is blunt and hard to set an example for Rand & the men he leads. He's leading them the way he wants them to act. I guess you could call that a kind of psychological warfare...

 

No, Taim is blunt end of story. Even in his seperate actions, actions that none of the others know were him, are blunt and direct and completely not in par with Moridin's methodology. The Grey Man, the attack on Demira, the attack on the Sun Palace, the commands to Kisman following that attack, his facing off with Logain, the general way he acts in full--every single thing he does, whether private or public is at complete odds with how Moridin would have done it or would have acted.

 

 

 

 

[Mik]

Heh,

 

I always end up like this when I make the mistake to reply..  :-\

I get stuck in a discussion where on one hand, I want to say so much that it would never fit in a single post. On the other hand, I want to bite my tongue, cause if I'm right it might ruin a few surprises I'm sure RJ wanted to keep up his sleeve untill the key-battle during Tarmon Gai'don. (or.. I could be plain wrong and make a fool of myself..but atleast we'd have a good laugh..hehe)

*sigh*

Choices, choices...

 

@Dreadlord;

You forgot to take into account that a weave can be tied off.

 

@Luckers;

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the only thing we know that Shai'tan has a limited 'window of opportunity' (= little time) to catch the Mind & Soul of one if it's servants. We know nothing of how long the process of transmigration into another Body takes. For all we know it could be near-instantanious if there is a suitable body waiting.

 

Yes, we meet the Gars in the Prologue of LoC for the first time. The deduction that Shai'tan has been working on their recycling up untill that time is a bit of a shortcut in my opinion. We see Shai'tan working his magic on Moghediens mind-trap and setting the Second Stage in mere seconds. While this is not transmigration in the traditional sense of the word, I think the act of twisting the Mind, Body & Soul and the tying them together in some odd way has it's paralels.

Furthermore, Aginor & Balthamel aren't exactly 'on par' with Ishamael in the food-chain. Ishy is literally 'just half a step below the Great Lord'.

 

On the bluntness of Taim's actions; Most of his actions are far from what we think would fit Moridin's Modus Operandi. What better way for RJ to trick us? Let me reverse the situation; what if Taim & Moridin would act exactly alike. It's not in Taims actions that you find Moridin; it's in his reactions that he sometimes touches the surface. Else it would be a pretty easy catch.

 

Like I said; I'll come with my own thread in a few days.

 

 

[DarkJustice]

Hey everyone I'm pretty new here although I have read the series several times and am currently working another read through.  I dont know that Taim is Moridin but its definately possible.  If you remember the Black Ajah was planning to break him free in The Dragon Reborn.  Then he disappeared for quite a while from the time he was freed to the time he shows up in Caemlyn.  Shadar Haran did tell the Gars that there bodies were the best to be had in the borderlands.  So whats to say that Taim wasnt taken to Shayol Guhl and Ishmael given his body?  Personally I'm of the opinion he is either a Darkfriend or turned with 13/13.  But it could have happened that way.  Well just thought I'd through in my 2 coppers

[Majsju]

If you remember the Black Ajah was planning to break him free in The Dragon Reborn.  Then he disappeared for quite a while from the time he was freed to the time he shows up in Caemlyn.

 

He only disappeared for us readers. He was present enough to make it possible for Bashere to track him all the way from Saldea to Andor, which does not leave much of an opportunity for the shadow to snatch him up, bring him to SG, put Ishys soul in the body, and then return him to the same spot he was taken from.

[Snowy Dawn]

The light burn us. Not only does the Taim is Demandred theory keep coming back like the return of the living dead (or the return of the repressed, for you Freud fans out there :-), but now we will never get rid of the Taim is Ishamael theory either. We can stomp on it all we want, but it will keep returning, unless, or so one might hope, it gets clobbered in AMOL.

 

For what it's worth, Moridin always wears black, tho' maybe with a bit of white lace, as in the prologue to TEOTW. Taim does not wear black for the most part, at least not in the appearances mentioned so far. On the other hand, so far as the red-and-black goes, hyphenated, btw, just like that, it is the color Moghedien and Cyndane appear in early on in KoD---in the ansaline gardens scene, ``At the Gardens'', Ch. 3.  Note that Balthamel/Aran'gar/Halima comments that those colors are less than flattering for them, indicating that they wear them as a sign that they are Moridin's creatures.

 

Also for what it's worth, Elan Morin Tedronai, to give him his proper name, always appears as himself, whenever we see him in the series, right from the beginning with his appearances in the dreams of Rand, Perrin, and Mat. The BWB gives no description of Jalwin Moerad, advisor to Artur Hawkwing, so we can't compare, even tho' there is a big broad hint given there that Moerad was indeed Ishamael. The BWB speaks early on, in discussing the forsaken, of a manuscript by the Ogier Aran son of Malan son of Senar, in which Aran propounds the theory that Ishamael wasn't fully caught in the bore with the other twelve, and that he appeared for periods of forty years at a time after the sealing of the bore before being drawn back into the sealed bore. Now the BWB also says of Jalwin Moerad that he disappeared forty years after he appeared in Hawkwing's court. That is the hint I have in mind :-)

 

I will eat this e-mail if AMOL shows us that Taim is one of the Forsaken after all. Why can't we all just let Taim be Taim? He is an interesting enough, if sinister, character just as he appears.

[Nethran Thaimal]

Taim's damned strong in the One Power, M'Heal to the Asha'Man, and can get close to Rand. What reason does he have for the Dark One to NOT give him info like he does the Forsaken?  The man could almost be Forsaken without having a soul transmigrated into his body or replaced by an Illusioned Forsaken. I think he's earned a high place in the army of the Shadow by himself. Seems to me like he's Chosen, just not one of THE Chosen.

[Guest Dreadlord]

I doubt even Moridin would tie off a weave of the True Power. While i do think we have seen Moridin use an alter ego I dont think it is Taim at all; I really do think Taim is good old Taim

[Luckers]

@Dreadlord;

You forgot to take into account that a weave can be tied off.

 

That seems unlikely. Tying off a weave of the True Power--even assuming it is impossible--would be a very silly thing to do. It goes against everything we know of about the way the Dark One permits use of the True Power--and it suggests a sense of ownership and control that would likely see anyone doing it dead from the Dark One's jealousy--which we know to date to be the highest cause of death amongst the Chosen.

 

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the only thing we know that Shai'tan has a limited 'window of opportunity' (= little time) to catch the Mind & Soul of one if it's servants. We know nothing of how long the process of transmigration into another Body takes. For all we know it could be near-instantanious if there is a suitable body waiting.

 

Yes, we meet the Gars in the Prologue of LoC for the first time. The deduction that Shai'tan has been working on their recycling up untill that time is a bit of a shortcut in my opinion. We see Shai'tan working his magic on Moghediens mind-trap and setting the Second Stage in mere seconds. While this is not transmigration in the traditional sense of the word, I think the act of twisting the Mind, Body & Soul and the tying them together in some odd way has it's paralels.

Furthermore, Aginor & Balthamel aren't exactly 'on par' with Ishamael in the food-chain. Ishy is literally 'just half a step below the Great Lord'.

 

Except that Taim, if you are correct, was taken prior to Ishamael's death, but during the period in which bodies were needed for Aginor and Balthamel.  One of those would have ended up in him long before any need to house Ishamael was nessasary.

 

Did that sound dirty to anyone else? Poor Taim.

 

On the bluntness of Taim's actions; Most of his actions are far from what we think would fit Moridin's Modus Operandi. What better way for RJ to trick us? Let me reverse the situation; what if Taim & Moridin would act exactly alike. It's not in Taims actions that you find Moridin; it's in his reactions that he sometimes touches the surface. Else it would be a pretty easy catch.

 

So... your argument is... Taim must be Moridin because there so completely and obviously different?

 

Dude, people tried that with the Be'lal theory, and it didn't work there either. A man does not completely hamstring himself by acting in a way contrary to what he believes to be the best way simply to throw of the sent--not that consistently.

 

Had Moridin been Taim, even if he felt himself under suspicion, his actions would have still been different.

 

Taim's damned strong in the One Power, M'Heal to the Asha'Man, and can get close to Rand. What reason does he have for the Dark One to NOT give him info like he does the Forsaken?  The man could almost be Forsaken without having a soul transmigrated into his body or replaced by an Illusioned Forsaken. I think he's earned a high place in the army of the Shadow by himself. Seems to me like he's Chosen, just not one of THE Chosen.

 

Indeed, that too is my theory.

[Guest Dreadlord]

Like the first Forsaken of this age.