Egwene for Amyrlin.One in a million chance.Why?Taveren job ?

[Bob T Dwarf]

There's one big problem, though, Luckers.

 

His battle with Ba'alzy was also broadcast across the sky when they fought at Tarwin's Gap in book 1.  The Horn had not been sounded yet then.

[Majsju]

His battle with Ba'alzy was also broadcast across the sky when they fought at Tarwin's Gap in book 1

 

No, it was not.

 

It is my belief that what occured in Falme was the result of two things. I believe that the Horn of Valere in some way blurs reality, causing a cross between the real world and tel'aran'rhiod that allows the heroes to manifest. From there i believe events are explained by Rand's ta'verenism. With reality suddenly fluid and easily manipulated, the effect of Rand's ta'maral'ailen was suddenly dramatically emphasized--the link between his success and the success of the Heroes, the throw out of the visions... his existence, and his battles were dramatically emphasized by the effect of the Horn on reality.

 

Regarding this particular event, we do have RJ explaining that it was indeed the Wheel itself taking direct action to display the battle in the sky.

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Yes it was.

"A miracle," Agelmar said, shaking his head, "but... Moiraine Sedai, men say many things a about what happened in the Gap.  That the Light took on flesh and fought for us.  That the Creator walked in the Gap to strike at the Shadow.  But I saw a man, Moiraine Sedai.  I saw a man, and what he did cannot be, must not be."  TEoTW  Ch 53, The Wheel Turns

 

Rand's battle with Ba'alzy occurred somewhere not on that world.  How did Agelmar see it?

 

The same way the Battle at Falme was seen.

[Majsju]

What Agelmar saw was Rand when he was physically present in Tarwins Gap, and rained destruction upon the Shadows army. As Rand mentions in his POV, the soldiers did see him standing there. There is nothing that even hints at any display of Rand fighting Ishy being broadcasted all over the place. That would have sparked quite a different reaction from Agelmar.

[Luckers]

Regarding this particular event, we do have RJ explaining that it was indeed the Wheel itself taking direct action to display the battle in the sky.

 

Can you cite the direct quote. I have a response to that but i would like to see the direct quote please.

[Majsju]

Question: At the end of the Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the one power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

 

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasnt the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out taveren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one dragon.

 

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9910/t/Third-Q-amp-A-Sunday.html

[bRANDan]

Rand's battle with Ba'alzy occurred somewhere not on that world.  How did Agelmar see it?

 

Agelmar didn't see the Ba'alzamon/Rand battle. He saw Rand scream "NOOOO", and pound the earth, which destroyed the trolloc horde with waves of earth and destroyed the draghkars with fire.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Luckers -

 

For a final time - not deus ex machina at all.  Just a very capable, well programmed machine.

 

In order to do its job the Wheel, first of all, needs to survive.  Thus it needs to recognize and counter threats to its existence.  The DO is such a threat.  Therefore the Wheel must counter whatever the DO tries to do. 

 

Since it isn't god in a machine, it can't reason.  If it could, it would simply prevent any discovery of the DO's existence.

 

It can, however, recognize when the Age Lace is drifting far enough from the Pattern that it needs to insert corrective threads in order to preserve itself.  Thus, Rand, Mat and Perrin, and the need to not only create them with the souls they carry, but to make them taveren, as well.  Rand's being taveren led to Tam discovering him.  It probably influenced Tam's decision to raise the child himself.  That led to his decision to return home which brought the three taveren together.

 

Three taveren concentrated in one place drew Moiraine.  Without Moiraine's arrival, Egwene never leaves Emond's Field, nor goes to the Tower at all.

 

Thus, taverenism is responsible for Egwene becoming Amyrlin.

 

Remember, the author was well trained in mathematics.  Correct answers come when you factor the entire problem, not merely the final term. 

[Luckers]

For a final time - not deus ex machina at all.  Just a very capable, well programmed machine.

 

And again, I think your suggesting to much. Demi-god in the machine is, i believe, the prevarication you are making.

 

In order to do its job the Wheel, first of all, needs to survive.  Thus it needs to recognize and counter threats to its existence.  The DO is such a threat.  Therefore the Wheel must counter whatever the DO tries to do. 

 

Or else it just reacts instinctively to the effects he has on the direction of the weaving.

 

Since it isn't god in a machine, it can't reason.  If it could, it would simply prevent any discovery of the DO's existence.

 

Agreed.

 

It can, however, recognize when the Age Lace is drifting far enough from the Pattern that it needs to insert corrective threads in order to preserve itself.  Thus, Rand, Mat and Perrin, and the need to not only create them with the souls they carry, but to make them taveren, as well.  Rand's being taveren led to Tam discovering him.  It probably influenced Tam's decision to raise the child himself.  That led to his decision to return home which brought the three taveren together

 

Agreed to a degree. It did since the drift of the Age Lace, and the creation of ta'veren is indeed one of its methods of dealing with it... but specific actions, like influencing Tam to raise the child... they seem too specific.

 

By the by, Rand's ta'verenism had nothing to do with Tam discovering him or deciding to raise him... Rand only became ta'veren in the months preceeding Moiraine's arrival.

 

Three taveren concentrated in one place drew Moiraine.  Without Moiraine's arrival, Egwene never leaves Emond's Field, nor goes to the Tower at all.

 

We don't know why Moiraine came to Emond's Field. RJ planned to write a novel on it, suggesting that it was a little more than the presence of ta'veren--something that would have to be a fact given that as weak as they were, their ta'maral'ailen would have been hardpressed to reach baerlon.

 

Thus, taverenism is responsible for Egwene becoming Amyrlin.

 

Re-read my posts mate. I make more than clear that Rand's existence, and the influence of his ta'maral'ailen caused situations that influenced Egwene's asscension. But no, his ta'verenism is not responsible for her being raised. I believe i said it best in this post.

 

"Certainly, but your talking about normal causality.  Rand's existence triggers events that led to the situation in which the Aes Sedai could be raised--but by the same token, you could therefore say that Myrelle caused Egwene to be raised when she dobbed on Elaida in New Spring and began the life-long hatred Elaida had of Suian which resulted in her moving to depose Suian which led Suian to seek to see someone else raised that she could influence.

 

Yes Rand's ta'vernism causes extreme circumstances within a specific field, and yes, peoples reactions to those circumstance outside of that field would need to be appropriately extreme themselves. But nevertheless those reactions are done within a perfectly normal scope. These people decisions and mental states are not being influence by the reality bending effects of the ta'veren--they may be reacting to that bending, but they themselves are not effected.

 

Rand's ta'maral'ailen had no influence on Suian when she chose to see Egwene raised, none on the small council when they fell in with that plan and enacted it, and none on the Hall when they voted on it. Rand's existence would have been something they considered, doubtlessly, but they were their normal, rational selves.

 

Effectively, Egwene got raised on the merits of the arguments to raise her--there was no reality bending, chance altering effects influencing those decisions."

 

Remember, the author was well trained in mathematics.  Correct answers come when you factor the entire problem, not merely the final term.

 

Associated effect and direct causality are different things. And the author was well trained in physics, so he would know that.

 

Question: At the end of the Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the one power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

 

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasnt the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out taveren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one dragon.

 

Mmm. Thanks man. I still stand by my position--the direct force of the Wheels weavings was heightened by the sounding of the Horn and the interaction with the subsequent weak reality and Rand's ta'maral'ailen. I see no confliction there, nor a need to suggest an overt degree of intelligent action on the wheels behalf.

 

It needed a Dragon, and that need pushed events--it did not however intelligently act to cause visions above the False Dragons. There is a distinction there that i think it important. It's the difference between god being in the machine, and the machine itself acting on its base programing.

[The Lost One]

Thank you Luckers!  This did it for me, I think I have a much better understanding of what you are saying and agree.  Thanks!  I really thought his taverenism did not have distance limits, but you connected the two dots in my head  - I was just missing the link.

 

As Cleared up By Luckers

......I make more than clear that Rand's existence, and the influence of his ta'maral'ailen caused situations that influenced Egwene's asscension. But no, his ta'verenism is not responsible for her being raised. .... Rand's existence triggers events that led to the situation in which the Aes Sedai could be raised--but by the same token, you could therefore say that Myrelle caused Egwene to be raised when she dobbed on Elaida in New Spring and began the life-long hatred Elaida had of Suian which resulted in her moving to depose Suian which led Suian to seek to see someone else raised that she could influence.

 

Yes Rand's ta'vernism causes extreme circumstances within a specific field, and yes, peoples reactions to those circumstance outside of that field would need to be appropriately extreme themselves. But nevertheless those reactions are done within a perfectly normal scope. These people decisions and mental states are not being influence by the reality bending effects of the ta'veren--they may be reacting to that bending, but they themselves are not effected.

[Majsju]

Mmm. Thanks man. I still stand by my position--the direct force of the Wheels weavings was heightened by the sounding of the Horn and the interaction with the subsequent weak reality and Rand's ta'maral'ailen. I see no confliction there, nor a need to suggest an overt degree of intelligent action on the wheels behalf.

 

It needed a Dragon, and that need pushed events--it did not however intelligently act to cause visions above the False Dragons. There is a distinction there that i think it important. It's the difference between god being in the machine, and the machine itself acting on its base programing.

 

Well, while it is quite clear that the Wheel was responsible for the broadcasting, of course it might have used the tools available, ie the Horn having been sounded. That fits with the spitting out ta'veren, the Wheel uses proxies to make the actual events happen (OMG, using proxies...the Wheel is Demandred!)

[Cabriana]

In EOTW on page 650, it says this:

 

"I suppose there isn't any choice for Egwene or me, either," Nynaeve said.

 

Moiraine nodded. "You are part of the Pattern, too, both of you in some fashion. Perhapd not ta'veren-perhaps-but strong even so. I have known it since Baerlon. And no doubt by this time the Fades know it , too. And Ba'alzamon..."

 

Before that in Ch 42 pg 644, Loial says, "They're all ta'veren!"

 

In the following paragraph, "So they are," Moiraine said. Three of them when I expect one..."

 

 

I don't recall any other place in the series where Nynaeve or Egwene are referred to as ta'veren. So I think this is RJ laying it out for us. While Ny and Egwene aren't ta'veren, they're both very strong  in the pattern. I think this means they're a part of the Age Lace and have very pivotal roles.

 

Ny helped cleanse saidin. And Egwene as Amyrlin is equally important. Rand must have an Amyrlin that supports him. Not someone who simply wants to control him. That's why the Pattern weaved circumstances so that an accepted became Amyrlin, an accepted that is close to him.

 

Most Amyrlins would try to put a leash on him, as has been proven by the deposing of Siuan and Elaida sending a delegation to kidnap him. Egwene sees the writing on the wall and when it comes down to the Last Battle (after Elaida has been deposed and stilled) the Amyrlin and the WT will stand behind the Dragon Reborn as he leads them to the LB.

 

I know Elaida foretold that the DR will kneel to the Amyrlin. I don't know how that will play out but having Elaida as Amyrlin would be disastrous in the end.

 

Here's another thing. Siuan had to be deposed. It was one of those events that was set into place (like LTT striking himself dead and creating Dragonmount so Rand could be born there) by the Wheel so a teenage Accepted could be raised to Amrylin.

 

Because remember Baerlon where Rand met Min. EOTW Ch15 pg 215

 

    Rand shivered. "And what did you see?"

    "When you're all in a group? Sparks swirling around you, thousands of them, and a big shadow, darker than midnight. It's so strong, I almost wonder why everybody can't see it. The sparks are trying to fly into the shadow, and the shadow is trying to swallow the sparks." She shrugged. "You are all tied together in something dangerous, but I can't make anymore of it.

    "All of us?" Rand muttered. "Egwene, too? But they weren't after-I mean-"

    Min didn't seem to notice his slip. "The girl? She part of it. And the gleeman. All of you..."

 

And later, Ch 16 pg 230.

 

"A woman arrived a little while ago-shorter than I, young, with dark eyes, and hair in a dark braid down to her waist. She's part of it, right along with the rest of you.

 

Down a couple paragraphs.

 

"The sparks, Rand. She met Mistress Alys coming in, and there were sparks with just the two of them. Yesterday, I couldn't see sparks without at least three or four of you together, but today it's all sharper , and more furious.

 

So Ny and Egwene are defintely pivotal in the fight against the Shadow and they're needed for Rand to win. But neither are ta'veren.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Thanks, Cabriana

 

Seems very clear that the Wheel weaves together threads when and where it does so that far-future events will have the greatest probability to play out as needed.  And, that's all taveren really means.  One thread about which the Wheel focuses other weavings for as long as is required to correct the Age Lace.

 

Luckers -

 

Since the Wheel is not sentient, it can't have instincts, or instinctively do anything.

[Harmless Bandit]

The line between a very well programmed computer like Wheel and a somewhat intelligent Wheel seems very slim, I would say. I am now not sure about a determinism nature; it seems to me that the Wheel is more reactive than anything else.

 

We don't know much about the Age of Legend, but it seems to me that the Bore took everyone completely by surprise. I mean, there was nothing to warn them (not that I know of), no prophecies or anything like that, and if the Bore wasn't a big event, I don't know what it is. If you contrast that with the Third Age you have the Dragon's birth foretold, the Last Battle and a few other things that wouldn't compare to the Bore, or the Tainting for instance.

 

Not that proves anything, but I believe the Bore was the initial action, and the rest up to now is the Wheel reacting.

 

Perhaps right away the Wheel saw that the Dragon would be needed sometime in the future, so it started (somehow) planing for that. I know putting it that way infer a certain degree of sentience to the Wheel, but it's the only way I can think of (English is not my first language).

 

In any case, Rand's thread is more prominent in the Pattern than any other, forcing others to bend around it, or follow it. And as has been stated other threads react to those threads and so on. That is Rand's web (that complicated Old Tongue word Loial used), but it shouldn't be confused with his ta'vereness. The latter is, I believe, those few, random, over-amplified or extreme events in an already more than average web.

 

The equalizer in my Walkman has a Normal mode, a Bass mode, and a Mega Bass mode. The Normal mode is good enough (the normal world). The Bass mode I would  liken to Rand's web; noticeably different from the usual. And the Mega Bass, well, that's his ta'vereness, much more than even the unusual, except, the Mega Bass comes on and off at random.

 

So, in essence, Rand caused Egwene to be raised Amyrlin, but very much indirectly. It was an effect of his web, but not his ta'vereness. Would that be close to what Luckers is saying?

 

Even in the books it is mentioned that some times his ta'vereness works and other times it doesn't.

 

For instance Rand was p***ed at the way that Aes Sedai of his bargained with the Sea Folk after he left the boat. While he was there, they were falling into his lap, but after he left they pretty much ate the Aes Sedai.

 

Rand's ta'vereness affects his immediate surroundings. His web? His immediate surroundings as well (direct) and the whole world (indirect). The issue pertaining to this discussion is of the latter.

 

It finally happened. I managed to confuse myself.

[aevogt]

Elaida foretold that the DR would "face the amrylin seat (egwene) and know her anger"  Nothing about kneeling to her.

 

As far as the Wheel is concerned, it is more a metaphor for the interactions of the people and the choices they make.  Those choices are what forms the age lace 

 

There is no actual "Wheel" (in the sky, for all you Journey fans)  weaving the age lace.

 

That's why Balefire is so bad.  If you pull all those threads, the pattern unravels.  Metaphorically.

[bRANDan]

Since the Wheel is not sentient, it can't have instincts, or instinctively do anything.

 

Instincts do not require sentience.

[Luckers]

Luckers -

 

Since the Wheel is not sentient, it can't have instincts, or instinctively do anything.

 

bRANDan already comments on the obvious fallacy of that comment, but as an amusing side note did you know that the fruit fly is the smallest creature to have observable instinctive reactions?

 

I think the Wheel could safely be said to have slightly more complext workings than the average fruit fly. But thats just me.

 

So, in essence, Rand caused Egwene to be raised Amyrlin, but very much indirectly. It was an effect of his web, but not his ta'vereness. Would that be close to what Luckers is saying?

 

Well... no... I would say that Rand was one of the reasons Egwene got raised--and a significant one. But i would not say that he caused her to be raised... honestly i wouldn't even say that he was the biggest reason she was raised. Or even second. The reasons she was raised were, in dencending order, that various people, beginning with Suian, thought they could control her. Then comes the fact that she breaks the stalemate between Romanda and Lelaine. Then comes the fact, to my mind, that she gives them a link to Rand.

 

And he wasn't really a figure in the bringing about of the situation in which she was raised--except in the role his existence had in Suian's fall, which also involved other factors.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Where are you guys getting your "instinctive" machines?  Sharper Image come out with something new?

 

The Wheel is a machine.  It doesn't think.  It doesn't feel.  It has no instincts.

[Luckers]

Well, actually machines function only on the basis of instinct... a pre-programmed stimuli causes a pre-programmed reaction. Thats the very definition of an instinct. That being said the Wheel is more adaptive than any modern known machine--but i still don't think it is sentient.

 

And, that being said, we were commenting on your comment that if the Wheel were not sentient, it could not have instincts. Many things that arn't sentient have instincts.

[Bob T Dwarf]

No, programming isn't instinct.  It's just programming.  What you're describing is just a pattern matching algorithm.

 

What non-living thing have you ever run across that has instincts? 

[dyring]

No, programming isn't instinct.  It's just programming.  What you're describing is just a pattern matching algorithm.

 

What non-living thing have you ever run across that has instincts? 

 

What is a living thing if not a (very) adanced machine? Its just a matter of different building materials. How advanced would AI need to be to call it living? Or is living something only carbonbased beeing can do?

 

[Luckers]

No, programming isn't instinct.  It's just programming.  What you're describing is just a pattern matching algorithm.

 

What non-living thing have you ever run across that has instincts? 

 

What? Thats what computers do... respond to pre-programmed stimuli with pre-programmed responses. Enter this, and this occurs. Its the basic function of a computer--and its also the definition of an instinct--a preset reaction to a specific stimuli.

 

'Pattern matching algorithm'... seriously dude, jargon's not your forte.

 

And why is this relevant? Again, you said sentient, not living, and we responded to that. I mean, your still wrong, but the Pattern is hardly a non-living device of the type we've moved into disgussing. So yes, what is the relevance?

[Bob T Dwarf]

Luckers and i have an ongoing dispute about the nature of the Wheel.

 

On the one hand he maintains that the Wheel is just a machine and that I'm trying to make it into deus ex machina, some kind of godlike entity imbued with intelligence and wisdom and all the characteristics of a living being.

 

On the other hand, he ascribes to the Wheel, instinct and instinctive reactions.  Something that is impossible for a machine.

 

I'm just trying to get him to be consistent in his definition.

 

For a final time.  The Wheel is just a machine.  It does not think.  It does not feel.  It has no instincts.  It does have very advanced programming, but nothing more.

[Bob T Dwarf]

What? Thats what computers do... respond to pre-programmed stimuli with pre-programmed responses. Enter this, and this occurs. Its the basic function of a computer--and its also the definition of an instinct--a preset reaction to a specific stimuli.

 

From dictionary.com ( a handy resource, you might find it useful )

instinct

–noun

1. an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species.

2. a natural or innate impulse, inclination, or tendency.

3. a natural aptitude or gift: an instinct for making money.

4. natural intuitive power.

 

So, either your Wheel possesses life, intelligence, intuition, or all three.

 

Even within instinct, and instinct within a single species, there is variation.  Not every human being responds to loud noises in the same fashion.  Not even every baby. 

 

My Wheel is just a highly advanced machine.

 

 

[Luckers]

Luckers and i have an ongoing dispute about the nature of the Wheel.

 

On the one hand he maintains that the Wheel is just a machine and that I'm trying to make it into deus ex machina, some kind of godlike entity imbued with intelligence and wisdom and all the characteristics of a living being.

 

On the other hand, he ascribes to the Wheel, instinct and instinctive reactions.  Something that is impossible for a machine.

 

I'm just trying to get him to be consistent in his definition.

 

For a final time.  The Wheel is just a machine.  It does not think.  It does not feel.  It has no instincts.  It does have very advanced programming, but nothing more.

 

Don't put words in my mouth Bob. I said that the Wheel is not sentient, that it is more like a computer program in its nature, reacting to deviations in the program with preset corrective methods, but i never suggested that it must be a machine, nor that it be limited to the scope of modern technology.

 

My problem has only ever been with the suggestiong of direct intervention on its part--of specific manipulations, like the suggestion that it directly influenced Tam to want children. Whilst i agree that it does influence people, the degree of such suggestions are too godlike, too god from the machine, for what RJ has stated the wheel to be. In this it is more akin to gravity, or current. It has its goal, and that goal influences the flow of events, but it is not direct, and not specific.

 

And yes, i do ascribe the wheel instinct--and no, i dont agree that such is impossible for a machine. I would maintain that such as that is the very definition of how a machine works.

 

Quote

What? Thats what computers do... respond to pre-programmed stimuli with pre-programmed responses. Enter this, and this occurs. Its the basic function of a computer--and its also the definition of an instinct--a preset reaction to a specific stimuli.

 

From dictionary.com ( a handy resource, you might find it useful )

instinct

–noun

1.  an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species.

2.  a natural or innate impulse, inclination, or tendency.

3.  a natural aptitude or gift: an instinct for making money.

4.  natural intuitive power.

 

So, either your Wheel possesses life, intelligence, intuition, or all three.

 

Champ, the day i use dictionary.com to understand the english language is the day i surrender to being ignorent. That being said, your prevarication is pointless... my point was never that a machines functions were instinctual, but that they were an allegory to instinctive action--and they are. An innate response or tendency, a pattern of activity or tendency to action--all of these are directly allegorical to the function of a computer as i stated it--a specific pre-set response to a specific pre-set stimuli.

 

Pull all the definitions you want, that is the very idea of instinct--transposed, its true, into a realm of discussion beyond its normal use, but nevetheless utterly apt.

 

Now do you really want to continue to discuss semantics with me? If so, i would again to be forced to point out that you are attempting to convalute this discussion in order to hide your own initial mistake. You stated that nothing that is not sentient could not have instincts--that is what we responded too, and this ongoing effort to shield yourself by misrepresenting my position is getting weak. Especially since your efforts to misrepresent still leave you in the wrong.