The Song

[dyehead]

In TSR, chapter 26, it goes into Rands trip back through time in Rhuidian(sp) and there are ten thousand Aiel holding hands and singing around a guy going insane from the taint on the one power who ends up killing them all.

 

Could this be the song?  If so, it makes sense as to why the Tinkers haven't found it yet, as the Aiel ignore and detest them.

 

Anyone else think that the song will play a part in bringing Rand back to sanity after or during the last battle?

 

-Sebastian

[Majsju]

http://forums.dragonmount.com/index.php/topic,28160.0.html

[dyehead]

That thread covered Perrin finding the song, which I don't really care about.. my post was regarding specifically the song, not what happens to Perrin, or Loial, or any other stuff.  Just the song, the Aiel having the song, and the tinkers relation to them, all bound together with T'armon Gaidon and Rand's vision regarding the man who could channel who was going crazy and killing everyone.

 

Links to other threads which aren't related to my point are.. pointless :)

[Majsju]

If you read the replies in that thread, all those things has been brought up.

 

There is no point in starting a new thread just because the starting post happens to have a minor difference from another, it only clogs the board.

[dyehead]

That's like me starting a thread that says Rand and the Myrdraal, and saying that you have to keep all discussion re: rand and a myrdraal to that thread, even if it has nothing to do with it.

 

Pointless.

[Luckers]

The Song the Tinkers refer to is something purely of their creation, a bastardized myth that evolved around the desire of the Dai'shain to return to the peace they knew in the Age of Legends, which in large part involved singing. You can see why it would have evolved that way if you pay attention to the scene where the Lost Ones first depart the Dai'shain, they speak almost reverently of their songs and their culture in the Age of Legend. The Song, therefore, is half an ideal, an expression of hope to regain peace and happiness.

 

The Songs of Growing are different. A function of a Talent called the Voice, they are much like Treesinging for the Ogier. It's not specific words that give the power, the vocalisations merely give form to the power that comes from a deeper place, the Talent of the Voice.

 

That being said, the Song mythos doubtlessly includes some memories of the Singing, and the Songs of Growing will be the closest thing they'll be able to find to their idea of the Song. I don't think they'll be impressed, the Song they look for is supposed to bring back the Age of Legends, and if the Ogier and Someshta havn't managed that with their own versions of the Songs of Growing, I don't see why humans having the Voice would change that--oh it would be beneficial if enough people manifested the Voice, especially with the mounting famine in Randland, but it won't bring back the Age of Legends.

 

Anyone else think that the song will play a part in bringing Rand back to sanity after or during the last battle?

 

Well, as far as we know the Songs of Growing have no healing effects, so i'd say its pretty doubtful.

[The Lost One]

Going off of what Luckers just said......but going a step further and maybe in a different direction...

 

Could the song they are looking for not actually be a song, but the lost talent of the Voice.  They just dont realize the talent of the Voice was a talent, they just think the "lost song" would do what the Voice does?

 

I don't know if that makes sense to anyone and I wasn't sure if I was going in a different direction then Luckers....but Luckers post just stirred that up in my head.  Maybe they are trying to find the talent of the Voice and they just don't realize that is what they are looking for.

 

 

 

[cloglord]

Bringing up a few points that aren't commonly discussed based on Lucker's comments....

 

We really don't know what the extent of the potential of the song is, there is not enough information to make the kind of assertions that Lucker's makes.  One possible explaination for how the song was used is that it could have been a focus for the OP.  If one thinks about the Nym as constructs of the OP designed to stimulate plant growth, then the "seed song" of the aiel is seen in an entirely different light, it becomes the magnifier for an ordinarily limited OP usage.  This is further evidenced by the traditional servitude of the aiel to channellers.  Aiel who have the voice, could be thought of as living angreal who served their aes sedai.  This could also explain why it did not seem to be the practice for every channeler in the AoL to be walking around with an angreal, what would be the point if you have 5 or 6 servants who can sing you up a more effective OP magnifier.

 

This is of course speculation, but it is speculation with the point of not having been discussed to death.  Of course I've been around this board long enough to know that every topic repeats itself on a cyclical basis, and the attempt to try and regulate the repeating of topics is not only futile, but probably serves in the long run to discourage discussion.  Perhaps a sticky with the ten most commonly discussed items and links to the Best of the related threads.

 

Just a suggestion.

[Luckers]

We really don't know what the extent of the potential of the song is, there is not enough information to make the kind of assertions that Lucker's makes.

 

The thing is though that my assertions are not guesswork. We know the origins of the Song mythos, and we know that the current state of that mythos differs from the function of the Songs of Growing... its not the same thing. I was literally stating from the text.

 

One possible explaination for how the song was used is that it could have been a focus for the OP.  If one thinks about the Nym as constructs of the OP designed to stimulate plant growth, then the "seed song" of the aiel is seen in an entirely different light, it becomes the magnifier for an ordinarily limited OP usage.  This is further evidenced by the traditional servitude of the aiel to channellers.  Aiel who have the voice, could be thought of as living angreal who served their aes sedai.  This could also explain why it did not seem to be the practice for every channeler in the AoL to be walking around with an angreal, what would be the point if you have 5 or 6 servants who can sing you up a more effective OP magnifier.

 

That's a really intriguing thought, except we know the Voice is a specific Talent that occurs outside the Aiel as well as in. And in both cases its directly and only linked to the Singing, not any specific actions of the power.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

First let me refer everyone to the Glossary definition for Talents.

 

Among those that are specifically mentioned are Earth Singing, and Cloud Dancing.  We've seen, in the books, examples of Tree Singing, and Stone Singing.  The vision Rand has includes Someshta dancing while the Aiel are Seed Singing.  Probably some kind of Growing Dance.

 

"The Song", seems most likely to be some version of all of those things and more.  Something that was part of a ritual that might have been performed on very special occasions or holidays during the AoL.  It's not any one of them, but some kind of symphony/ballet that blends together all of them.

 

I'll just repeat something I've said before.  Lews Therin Telamon was among all his other offices and Talents, the Lord of the Morning.  That gets mentioned at several points throughout the books, yet we're never told exactly what it means or why it's significant.  Most likely because it's one of the "aHA's" that's been reserved for the end of the books. 

 

My best guess about it goes like this: From the prologue to EotW it seems likely that he had the Voice.  My guess is that one of the Lord of the Morning's duties was to Sing the sun over the horizon everyday.  That action somehow reinforcing all of the positive possibilites for that day. Probably to be a lead singer on the occasions when the symphony of "The Song" was performed.  If he wasn't Froot Loops, he'd even remember that he knows "The Song".

 

If Elayne ever gets around to turning on that iPod she found in Ebou Dar, she'll find all of the lost songs somewhere on it.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

That's a really intriguing thought, except we know the Voice is a specific Talent that occurs outside the Aiel as well as in. And in both cases its directly and only linked to the Singing, not any specific actions of the power.

 

still seems possible that the Talent could have been restricted to Aiel in the AOL(assuming a genetic basis), with a high rate of inheritance.  it's only been spread to other races and 'watered-down' among the aiel as they bred with other races during the breaking.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Not true.

 

When he first acknowledges Ishy, LTT asks him if he has the Voice. 

 

Ishy, in no way, was or even resembled an Aiel.  If he was enough "with it" to see Ishy and ask the question, he was sensible enough to know that.

[cloglord]

Quote

One possible explaination for how the song was used is that it could have been a focus for the OP.  If one thinks about the Nym as constructs of the OP designed to stimulate plant growth, then the "seed song" of the aiel is seen in an entirely different light, it becomes the magnifier for an ordinarily limited OP usage.  This is further evidenced by the traditional servitude of the aiel to channellers.  Aiel who have the voice, could be thought of as living angreal who served their aes sedai.  This could also explain why it did not seem to be the practice for every channeler in the AoL to be walking around with an angreal, what would be the point if you have 5 or 6 servants who can sing you up a more effective OP magnifier.

 

That's a really intriguing thought, except we know the Voice is a specific Talent that occurs outside the Aiel as well as in. And in both cases its directly and only linked to the Singing, not any specific actions of the power.

 

That is an absurd assumption based only on one question made by the insane LTT to a man he knows but does not recognize.  We have no indication that the Voice has ever occurred outside of the Aiel, and I dare you to find one instance where it does.

[Bob T Dwarf]

Wrong quote, cloglord.

 

I'll answer your question/accusation anyway.

 

Behind him the air rippled, shimmered, solidified into a man who looked around, his mouth twisting briefly with distaste.  Not so tall as Lews Therin, he was clothed all in black, save for the snow-white lace at his throat and the silverwork on the tops of his thigh-high boots.

 

Aiel are almost uniformly tall.  Their coloring is usually that associated with redheads.  Their hair is usually a sandy red shade.  They uniformly wear the caidin'sor, not black with lace and  thigh-high silverworked boots.

 

So, according to you, LTT heard him, turned and instead of him saw a tall man with fair coloring clad in caidin-sor?

 

If you believe that, I've got some prime beachfront property in Florida I'll letcha have cheap.

[Luckers]

I believe Bob got that one. Elan Morin by description is clearly not one of the Aiel, yet Lews Therin asks him if he has the Voice--and speaks of the Singing as a clear social moment within the day to day lives of the people.

 

Among those that are specifically mentioned are Earth Singing, and Cloud Dancing.  We've seen, in the books, examples of Tree Singing, and Stone Singing.  The vision Rand has includes Someshta dancing while the Aiel are Seed Singing.  Probably some kind of Growing Dance.

 

We have no idea what earth singing or cloud dancing is--my guess is earth singing involves something to do with manipulating the matricies of metals, akin to what Rand described in his sword, and the feelings Egwene gets from oars--but we don't know. The rest are all interlinked talents--are all the Songs of Growing.

 

My best guess about it goes like this: From the prologue to EotW it seems likely that he had the Voice.  My guess is that one of the Lord of the Morning's duties was to Sing the sun over the horizon everyday.  That action somehow reinforcing all of the positive possibilites for that day. Probably to be a lead singer on the occasions when the symphony of "The Song" was performed.  If he wasn't Froot Loops, he'd even remember that he knows "The Song".

 

Firstly... that is completely unsuggested anywhere in the texts. The comments from the prologue make it clear that the hour of singing was a common pasttime in AoL households--his clear expectation that Ishamael would both know what he was talking of, and have taken part elsewhere shows that.

 

And in any case, this is not the Song. The Song is a mythological construct, a synconized blurring of the Lost Ones desire for the peace, prosperity and culture they had in the Age of Legends. Part of that would include memories of the Songs of Growing, and of the roll they played--but the Song never existed, not as they describe it. It's a pure ideological creation.

 

If Elayne ever gets around to turning on that iPod she found in Ebou Dar, she'll find all of the lost songs somewhere on it.

 

If the descriptions of the Singing is anything to go by, then we know that the Songs of Growing are not words, there are no specific magic words that need to be sung, the sound is merely a vocalisation of a deeper power.

 

still seems possible that the Talent could have been restricted to Aiel in the AOL(assuming a genetic basis), with a high rate of inheritance.  it's only been spread to other races and 'watered-down' among the aiel as they bred with other races during the breaking.

 

No, thats what im saying, it was not restricted to the Aiel--LTT's comments to Ishamael show that.

 

 

[Bob T Dwarf]

Oh, you could certainly be right about it being an idealized longing based on a fantasy.

 

I sure hope not, though.  Having something like the outcome of TG depend on more than swords and fireballs and cannons and stem-engines would be a truly original touch.  I hope Jordan's notes bring Singing and The Voice back into it somehow.

 

My belief has always been that those things we see in the Prologue to "The Eye of the World" that haven't played out yet are all foreshadowing of things yet to come.  I very much hope I'm right.

[bRANDan]

uniformly wear the caidin'sor,

 

Did the Aiel wear cadin'sor in the AoL? I thought it was something that arose out of there need for such garments, like the black veil and the shoufa.

 

Part of that would include memories of the Songs of Growing, and of the roll they played

 

I've noticed this spelling mistake twice, should be role, just letting you know. Not trying to be an arsehole, but your argument isn't as effective if in the middle of reading they stop and think "They sang and did somersaults, heh heh". That's what it makes me think anyways.

[Bob T Dwarf]

The caidin'sor has been the uniform of the Aiel since the Age of Legends.  Since there were Aiel as Servants to All, so far as we know.

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

AES SEDAI means 'Servants to All'(or some variation of that - keywords: servants and all)

 

AIEL means 'Dedicated'

[Bob T Dwarf]

OK.  I got 'em switched. My bad. :-[

[Luckers]

He is right though, the Aiel wore the cadin'sor ("work clothes") during the Age of Legends. Their full title in that time was Dai'shain Aiel, or "Those Dedicated to Peace in Battle".

 

[cloglord]

Aiel are almost uniformly tall.  Their coloring is usually that associated with redheads.  Their hair is usually a sandy red shade.  They uniformly wear the caidin'sor, not black with lace and  thigh-high silverworked boots.

 

So, according to you, LTT heard him, turned and instead of him saw a tall man with fair coloring clad in caidin-sor?

 

Yes, it is very clear that LTT did not recognize ishmael, not at all, nor did he recognize that his house was nearly destroyed or that his dead wife was lying at his feet while he was yelling for her.  You are basing your whole assumption that others besides the Aiel had the voice on the fact that LTT can't have mistaken a short man for a tall one, when he obviously only had a passing connection to reality at all. 

 

As for the point that Luckers makes about LTT asking in a normal social situation, if the aiel served aes sedai, and LTT was the leader of the AS wouldn't the arrival of an aiel at his doorstep probably be considered a "normal" social situation.  As such, the context in which the question is asked is marginal, and the fact that it was asked while LTT was in the depths of his insanity, pretty well knocks it out of the realm of credibility.

[Bob T Dwarf]

I don't doubt that for you it does.

 

LTT was in total denial about the state of his home and family.  The fact that he heard and saw Ishy at all tells us that he was not insensible, just in denial.  Ishy's "healing" just broke through his denial and forced him to see the things he did not want to see.

 

Since Ishy was not part of those things he didn't want to know, he had no trouble perceiving him at all.

[Whitefire]

We have no idea what earth singing or cloud dancing is

We know, earth singing is a talent for earthquakes and cloud dancing is a talent for weather control. There should be many capital letters in my last sentence too :)

 

They are simply talents with One Power. The Aiel supposedly helped channeling during seed singing, but we don't know the details.

 

Song never existed, not as they describe it. It's a pure ideological creation.

 

We don't know that, really... It's very likely the truth, especially when we consider what Thom said about history (and I think RJ's view would be more or less the same), but there's also a chance that this was some general name for Aiel "Talent" of singing. It is possible that the people who never intentionally destroyed any "threads" in the Pattern were rewarded with some mystical strength.

[cloglord]

LTT was in total denial about the state of his home and family.  The fact that he heard and saw Ishy at all tells us that he was not insensible, just in denial.  Ishy's "healing" just broke through his denial and forced him to see the things he did not want to see.

 

Since Ishy was not part of those things he didn't want to know, he had no trouble perceiving him at all.

 

What?  Now you are LTT's therapist?  He's in denial about the state of his home and his family, but somehow it doesn't seem to phase him that his sworn enemy, the man he trapped in the bore days previously, just showed up at his door?  I suspect that you are not a psychologist and even if you were you have never had the opportunity to counsel LTT.  To make definative statements about his perceptions or the type of psychosis he is exhibiting in that scene is either wrongheaded or it is just plain wrong.

 

  Simply, LTT did not recognize Ishmael.  If his sense of reality was skewed enough that he missed that, it is not only possible that LTT's mind was rearranging details of ishy's appearance, it is probable.  LTT's mind could have created any person to fill in the gaps, including a person who looked to be aiel.