Moraine, Lanfear, Mat, And The Finns

[Darth_Andrea]

We know that Moraine never entered the stone door from the waste till she fought Lanfear. And many assume that Lanfear had in the AoL, If thats the case is that why she needed a new body and Moraine is still alive? Did the Finns kill her for violating the rules and comming twice? If that is the case whats going to happen to Mat? It would be suicide for him to go back. We know he isn't going to be killed obviously and something is going to happen with his eye, but why would they kill Lanfear and not him for the same thing? Ta`veren work or something else?

 

Any Thoughts?

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]         

[DerSaidin]

Gate got melted. Mat is going in through the tower.

[Darth_Andrea]

Gate got melted. Mat is going in through the tower.

 

True but would that matter, he has been there once and I would think they wouldn't care how they come just the fact they are there.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]         

[cheyjade]

We know that Moraine never entered the stone door from the waste till she fought Lanfear. And many assume that Lanfear had in the AoL...Did the Finns kill her for violating the rules and comming twice?

 

I thought that the two doorways were identical other than the markings, and that one leads to the Aelfin, and one to the Eelfin. Thus, since Mat couldn't go through the first doorway twice (it says he just ended up on the other side of the ter'angreal in the storeroom), why should Lanfear be able to?

 

Unless you're saying that Lanfear acquired a second body upon passing through the second time..but then, why didn't Mat? It doesn't jive that it's because she can channel, since it's implied that that power lies with the dark one.

[icspots]

We know that Moraine never entered the stone door from the waste till she fought Lanfear. And many assume that Lanfear had in the AoL...Did the Finns kill her for violating the rules and comming twice?

 

I thought that the two doorways were identical other than the markings, and that one leads to the Aelfin, and one to the Eelfin. Thus, since Mat couldn't go through the first doorway twice (it says he just ended up on the other side of the ter'angreal in the storeroom), why should Lanfear be able to?

 

Unless you're saying that Lanfear acquired a second body upon passing through the second time..but then, why didn't Mat? It doesn't jive that it's because she can channel, since it's implied that that power lies with the dark one.

 

He's saying that Lanfear went through the doorway during the AoL before she was bound in the seal of the bore and that the 'finns killed her for going through the doorway twice (since she was grappling with Moiraine at the time).  It goes back to the theory that Lanfear was made the most powerful channeler, and the most beautiful woman by the 'finns way back when.

 

Now assuming that you accept that theory there's no reason to believe that Lanfear didn't use the ToG to go to Finnland in the AoL, and we don't know of any proscriptions to going to Finnland more than once, only that you can only use a doorway once.  I personally don't think that going through a doorway and then going through the ToG violates any of the agreements.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Rand, Mat and Moiraine went through the doorway ter'angreal when they were in Tear I think (or wherever it is). 

 

So if something happened to Lanfear and possibly Mat because of a repeat entrance, then it would have happened to Moiraine as well.

[aussie_ashaman123]

I think they killed Lanfear coz she was one of the chosen. We know the original doorway (in Tear) you asked the questions, and if they touched on the Shadow, you were cactus. Im guessing the Finns hate the shadow, so they would've loved Lanfear falling into their laps

[aevogt]

I always wondered why Moraine didn't pop through the doorway in Rhuidean before they left for Cairhien.  That way, when she tackled Lanfear, Lanfear would have entered the Fox realm and Moraine would have simply tunbled out the other side.  Maybe she saw something in the Rings that told her she couldn't sidestep fate.  Maybe that was one of her answers, much like Mat's. 

 

I don't think there is any prohibition against entering the Tower and Doorway. 

 

My theory is that if you enter through the ToG, the Finns don't grant wishes or answer questions.  That is reserved for those who enter via the doorways and hence the reason to have the doorways and theie one time only restriction.

 

Otherwise, Mat would not be able to enter via the ToG to save Moraine and it's as certain as anything else that he is going to do so in AMoL.

 

As to why they killed her, if the Finns killed Lanfear at all, it's probably the Shadow link.  I personally have supposed in the past that Slayer is capable of entering the ToG in TAR because he goes there in the flesh.    Birgitte says Perrin shouldn't enter, but doesn't mean that Slayer, with his special powers would have the same hurdles with egress.  Birgitte knows nothing about Slayer who might just strike fear into the Finns but by being what he is.

 

 

[cheyjade]

He's saying that Lanfear went through the doorway during the AoL before she was bound in the seal of the bore and that the 'finns killed her for going through the doorway twice (since she was grappling with Moiraine at the time).  It goes back to the theory that Lanfear was made the most powerful channeler, and the most beautiful woman by the 'finns way back when.

 

Oh right, I'd forgotten about that theory. Was any reference in the books found that 'proves' that Lanfear did go to Finnland before, and/or that the Finns gave her her power and beauty? I'd assumed that it was just speculation.

 

Then again, I tend to read so fast that I skim half the threads around here.

[aevogt]

I don't buy that theory.  If Lanfear had already visited the Foxes and gotten her three wishes, Moraine would have gone through the doorway alone and Lanfear would have tumbled out the other side.    You can't go through twice.

[Jonn]

I don't buy that theory.  If Lanfear had already visited the Foxes and gotten her three wishes, Moraine would have gone through the doorway alone and Lanfear would have tumbled out the other side.    You can't go through twice.

 

That's a point.

Then again something could be said about the circumstances. Lanfear was channeling huge amounts of saidar with an angreal of considerable strength while wrestling with Moiraine who was probably drawing as much as she could.

 

A thought always glanced my more speculative instincts whenever I thought of this scene, so let me be the crazy one to give it some voice.

 

Lan was knocked loopy by Lanfear before Moiraine made her move. After Moiraine and Lanfear went through the doorway, this is when he replies rather simply that, "she's gone". I always found it strange, his reaction. From what we knew of the warder bond, we should have expected him to go nuts or have nothing in his mind but to go towards the new holder of his bond. I thought it was remarkable that he was able to stand there almost quietly and react the way he did.

 

OK, back to Moiraine: Before she hauled Lanfear through the doorway she embraced saidar and grabbed onto the angreal. Now, what was she going to weave or what did she weave to face Lanfear? The more conventional thought would be that Moiraine was trying to cut off or shield Lanfear, but from what we know about strength, this would be impossible for Moiraine to accomplish. Rand could barely fend off Lanfear's attacks and he is considerably stronger than Moiraine. Lanfear is fully leveled out in power with an angreal, there's no way for a weaker opponent to shield her and we know that Moiraine didn't manage to cut her off because they were both glowing with saidar when they went through.

 

Now, I'm not saying that I really believe that Lanfear had gone through the doorway before. The scenario just brought back my thoughts about the scene with Moiraine. BUT...if Lanfear had gone through before, it would be impossible to physically bring her through the doorway, right?

 

Maybe Moiraine did something to Lanfear to bind her.

 

Now here's my crazy theory of the month:

 

Moiraine could have passed on Lan's warder bond before going through the doorway, and then she bonded Lanfear with a version of the warder bond as they went through the doorway.

 

Lanfear knows you can't go through twice. Knowing this why would she stand in front of the doorway? If she had never gone through before, she would not have stood there knowing there was a chance that Rand could simply knock her through while they struggled. Counter to that...the angreal was there and maybe she knew that she could easily handle Rand with that extra boost.

 

Still it was foolish to stand in front of that doorway. Or not. She could have known that you can't physically go through twice and it didn't matter to her to stand in front of it.

 

Speculations a plenty...

 

What do you think, it's kind of a weird hypothesis, so I'm eager to see what some of you think. It's just a thought mind you.

[icspots]

Rand, Mat and Moiraine went through the doorway ter'angreal when they were in Tear I think (or wherever it is). 

 

So if something happened to Lanfear and possibly Mat because of a repeat entrance, then it would have happened to Moiraine as well.

 

You can go through each doorway once, not one or the other.  Rand, Mat and Moiraine went through the doorway in the Stone of Tear so none of them can go back through that doorway (as evidenced by Mat trying to jump back through it right after they threw him out)  Mat then went through the doorway in Rhuidean, however Moiraine did not.  When she and Lanfear went through that doorway in Caihrien it was the first time through for Moiraine.  What we don't know is what would happen if someone who has gone through one of the doorways goes back through the same doorway while grappling with someone who hasn't.

 

  That way, when she tackled Lanfear, Lanfear would have entered the Fox realm and Moraine would have simply tunbled out the other side. 

 

Again we don't know what happens when two people go through together.

 

I don't think there is any prohibition against entering the Tower and Doorway. 

 

My theory is that if you enter through the ToG, the Finns don't grant wishes or answer questions.  That is reserved for those who enter via the doorways and hence the reason to have the doorways and theie one time only restriction.

 

This is how I understand it.  The Finns can grant you things (answers, wishes, etc.) either by going through the ToG, or by going through the applicable doorway.  If you go through the doorways then they follow their agreements: If you don't bring iron, fire, or music then they'll grant you wishes (or answer questions).  If you go through the ToG then I think you're on your own as far as negotiation and they don't owe you anything specific and will try to cheat you the best that they can.  So you use all the things that are proscribed in the doorway agreements to gain an advantage over them to get the agreement you want. 

 

As to why they killed her, if the Finns killed Lanfear at all, it's probably the Shadow link. 

 

Possible, though not definite.  The way I see it some options are: link to the shadow, involved in the destruction of the Ter'angreal, pissed them off otherwise, etc.

 

Oh right, I'd forgotten about that theory. Was any reference in the books found that 'proves' that Lanfear did go to Finnland before, and/or that the Finns gave her her power and beauty? I'd assumed that it was just speculation.

 

The only reference that I recall off hand was the Lanfear/Cyndane POV from the cleansing where she approaches Alivia and thinks to herself that Alivia is stronger than she had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her and that it was impossible.  The view being that how could she know it's impossible to be stronger than her unless she wished to be the strongest female channeler ever.

 

Oh and it is only speculation.... that's why it's a theory. :P

 

[Luckers]

This is how I understand it.  The Finns can grant you things (answers, wishes, etc.) either by going through the ToG, or by going through the applicable doorway.  If you go through the doorways then they follow their agreements: If you don't bring iron, fire, or music then they'll grant you wishes (or answer questions).  If you go through the ToG then I think you're on your own as far as negotiation and they don't owe you anything specific and will try to cheat you the best that they can.  So you use all the things that are proscribed in the doorway agreements to gain an advantage over them to get the agreement you want.

 

Mmm. That's what I think too.

 

The only reference that I recall off hand was the Lanfear/Cyndane POV from the cleansing where she approaches Alivia and thinks to herself that Alivia is stronger than she had been before the Aelfinn and Eelfinn held her and that it was impossible.  The view being that how could she know it's impossible to be stronger than her unless she wished to be the strongest female channeler ever.

 

Its not unlikely that they knew what the top strengths were in the Age of Legend. Even if it wasn't common knowledge someone would have let the girl know she was up there, and besides, Mierin was a researcher, an expert in the nature of the One Power and of channeling.

 

But, that being said, there would have been hundreds of thousands of female Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends--even without emperic evidence, having met hundreds of thousands of women who can channel and never having any of them be stronger than her allows for her certainty.

 

I think they killed Lanfear coz she was one of the chosen. We know the original doorway (in Tear) you asked the questions, and if they touched on the Shadow, you were cactus. Im guessing the Finns hate the shadow, so they would've loved Lanfear falling into their laps

 

Thats my guess too.

[Fastfairy]

Hi

Sorry I'm probably being really dim but you said - 'It would be suicide for him to go back. We know he isn't going to be killed obviously and something is going to happen with his eye, but why would they kill Lanfear and not him for the same thing? Ta`veren work or something else? '

 

What's the thing about his eye?

[Mr Ares]

What's the thing about his eye?

When Mat visited the Aelfinn, he was told that he would give up half the light of the world to save the world. Egwene has had Dreams of Mat, one of him placing an eye on a balance scale, another of him dicing with blood streaming down his face but his hat obscuring the wound. There is probably a bit more, as well. Plus, there are the parallels between Mat and Odin, and so it  makes sense from a thematic point of view. That (in short) is why people think Mat will lose an eye.

[Darth_Andrea]

Hi

Sorry I'm probably being really dim but you said - 'It would be suicide for him to go back. We know he isn't going to be killed obviously and something is going to happen with his eye, but why would they kill Lanfear and not him for the same thing? Ta`veren work or something else? '

 

What's the thing about his eye?

 

Egwene had a dream about Mat putting one of his eyes on a balance scale, and since the Finns are seeing through his eyes it's assumed he gives one up to free Moraine.

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]         

[Paviel]

The Eelfinn kill indiscriminately, I think. They could have hanged Lanfear in the same way they hanged Mat, and if no one were there to give her CPR...

 

In other words, I don't think they killed Lanfear because of her connection to the Shadow. (Mat isn't connected to the Shadow, and that didn't stop them from almost killing him.)

 

Speaking of connections to the Shadow, the Aelfinn didn't kill Rand for asking about Tarmon Gai'don...

[xander]

Since the game board in Snakes and Foxes resembles a spider web and the Wheel has all these threads running through it (also may resemble a spider web), that maybe the Finns are somehow tasked with tending the wheel. 

 

We don't know much about them but they seem to know everything and be able to grant anything, for a price.

 

Maybe the DO remaking the wheel in his own image would axe the Finns and that's why they hate the shadow.

[Daedrid]

Doesn't one gate grant answers and the other wishes? maybe they were killed for channeling inside that place. maybe not because lanfear was a chosen. the finns never really chose a side did they.

[icspots]

Hi

Sorry I'm probably being really dim but you said - 'It would be suicide for him to go back. We know he isn't going to be killed obviously and something is going to happen with his eye, but why would they kill Lanfear and not him for the same thing? Ta`veren work or something else? '

 

The implication is if Lanfear was killed for going through a second time then wouldn't Mat be killed too, i.e. going back is suicide.  I disagree with this.  You can't go through either of the doorways twice (either part of the agreement, or a function of the Ter'angreal).  Mat's gone through both Ter'angreal, but he's going to go in through the ToG this time.... they're not going to kill him for going through the tower, not that they won't try to cheat him.

 

What's the thing about his eye?

 

What Mr. Ares said.  Several viewings/dreams/"true answers" about him giving up a eye, etc. plus in KoD he realizes that the 'Finns are looking through his eyes and recording things.  So he gives up half the light of the world (his eye) to save the world (bring back Moiraine without whom Rand will 'almost certainly fail').

 

Doesn't one gate grant answers and the other wishes? maybe they were killed for channeling inside that place. maybe not because lanfear was a chosen. the finns never really chose a side did they.

 

Yes the gate in Tear answers questions while the gate in ...... well now Cairhien grants wishes.  Rand channeled inside the Tear doorway so we must assume that they don't automatically kill you if you channel.  The 'Finns never "chose a side" and are, as stated by Moiraine, "not evil just so different that they might as well be".  The big push towards her being killed because of being one of the Chosen is because Moiraine says that the 'finns punish for answers linked to the shadow.

[Guest adamld]

Here are my thoughts on the subject. This is definately one of the most interesting plots throughout WoT.

 

The Finns:

 

Much evidence suggests the Finns operate outside the wheel. e.g You cannot alter the pattern at will if you are part of it.

 

Their nature is one of complete indifference to man, to Light, and Shadow. The concept of good and evil is irrelevant to the Finns because they do not participate in the pattern.

 

Moiraine describes them as so different they are neither good nor evil, but that we would consider them evil.

 

Think about their origins, they are outside reality, there are no obvious links between the world of the finns and the world in which rand resides.

 

The Pact

 

At some point, in the AoL or before, someone researching alternate dimensions / worlds found their world, and an agreement was reached in how future relations would be handled. Doorways were constructed, in such a fashion as to uphold this agreement. (Can only enter once through each doorway).

 

This pact, was in my mind similar to diplomatic relations between two countries. This is how you may enter, this is what you may bring with you. You may ask these questions, but be clear and state a price. State no price and one will be stated for you. Do not ask questions that touch the Shadow.

 

Now, fire, iron, musical instruments, these are clearly banned because they hold power over the finns or provide some element of protection. This is most likely how the original pact came to be. It is possible the Finns originally offered no answers or gifts and were quite hostile, there is nothing to say they simply did not take what they wanted from those foolish enough to venture into their territory.

 

The game that Olver plays is clearly the remnents of instructions / policy on how to deal with the Finns or to beat them.

 

The Entrances

 

Now I view the two doorways as the agreed methods of entry under the Pact (their Front Door) and the Tower of Genji as their "Authorized Staff Only" door. You walk in through the two red stone doors and you are an expected guest albut with conditions. You walk through the staff door and you can expect a pretty rough reception as you are clearly not entering with the intention of honoring the Pact.

 

Mat and Co. are going to enter through the staff door, and experience all the adventure that that entails. This is why the pattern is assembling a group to combat the various challenges they will encounter.

 

Luc / ISAM

 

As for Lord Luc / ISAM, why he runs to this tower is a mystery to me. But I always wondered how two people were merged into one, why Slayer is so alien in his PoV to anything remotely human. Think about Good, Evil, and Finn Evil, if I had to catagorise Slayer I'd put him in as "Finn Evil" he is indifferent, he does not worship the DO but he serves as kind of a mercenary. It may be that the Finns had some role in the joining of Luc / ISAM and his alien nature is a result.

 

Slayer's abilities seem neither to do with the power, or the DO. Some have speculated that he is a Dark Wolf brother, however he clearly has no ties to the DO whatsoever as proven in his PoV on a few occasions. I speculate that his powers are more to do with his link to the Finn and their being situated outside the Pattern. Slayer can seemingly enter / leave the dream at will, yet we know he cannot channel. This is a power neither of the Shadow or the Light, it seems to fit in more with the Finns.

 

Now as for Lanfear and Moiraine going through the doorways, we have very little information on what transpired on the other side.

 

But what we know so far is:

 

Two may enter the same doorway yet no see each other on the other side (Rand / Matt / Moiraine entering in the SoT).

Lanfear / Cyndane not mentioning the fate of Moiraine or even seeming aware that she entered with her.

Cyndane mentioned being "held" not merely killed, she spent time there. It is possible her links to the Shadow got her killed but not immediately. There is no way to know how the Finns dealt with her other than it is unlikely they honor the Pact with the chosen and she definately didn't leave with the same body she entered with. Also, we know that the DO gave her the new body, not the Finns. So he ressurrected Lanfear so what we know is she was held, died somehow and then her soul such as it is was put into a new body.

 

The Finns and the Shadow

 

There is little that tells us why the Finns do not allow questions relating to the Shadow, but we do know they are not allied with them, nor with the Light. They clearly do not think in concept of Light or Shadow. They sit outside the Pattern, but who else does? The Dark One.

 

The Dark One cannot touch the pattern, except through the Bore. The Finns are outside the Pattern but can clearly influence / manipulate it. This is where it gets hazy. They seem to have more power than the DO, they seem to have power very close to the Creator but under strict guidelines.

 

I can't really speculate anymore about the Finns and the Shadow because I think even RJ did not fully develope their backstory. Or if he did he hasn't revealed it yet.

 

[marcbreault]

When Mat enters the realms again he will probably use fire and music etc., and wasn't it iron or something like that.  He will probably survive using those to defend him.  I always thought Moiraine didn't die although Lan's reaction and Min's viewing might go against that.  I always thought perhaps when Moiraine went through the doorway since she was in another dimension so to speak, that cut the bond between her and Lan.  She was in another world after all, so the result might be the same as if she died.   

[Guest adamld]

Lan reacted like Lan. Where most warders would be quivering on the ground or in a blind rage Lan sat solidly on his horse, controlling his desire to rush to Myrelle. He sat there for Rand, and then he left. He thought Moraine was dead. Or more importantly, the warder portion of the bond that binds warder and aes sedai thought he was dead. His was altered, to pass to another once the link was broken and it did so.

 

My theory on this is that she did not die, previously when she stepped through the doorway he must of still been able to feel her, it is possibly because the doorway maintained the link. But going through and then the destruction of the doorway cut that link. She was effectively outside the pattern, unreachable, as far as the weave is concerned meeting all the criteria to pass on to Myrelle.

 

Moraine may have some inkling of what to do once she gets to the Finns, from her journey through the rings. But it clearly requires Mat's help. The Finns may be holding her responsible for the destruction of the doorway. Or, they may think the destruction of the doorway was a breaking of the pact in some way. Its possible old rules apply now.

[Mr Ares]

Here are my thoughts on the subject. This is definately one of the most interesting plots throughout WoT.

 

The Finns:

 

Much evidence suggests the Finns operate outside the wheel. e.g You cannot alter the pattern at will if you are part of it.

What evidence? Who says they alter the Pattern, at will or at all?

 

Their nature is one of complete indifference to man, to Light, and Shadow. The concept of good and evil is irrelevant to the Finns because they do not participate in the pattern.

Evidence?

 

Think about their origins, they are outside reality, there are no obvious links between the world of the finns and the world in which rand resides.

Outside reality? Evidence? They are in a parallel world, separate but connected. There are obvious links - the Doorways and the ToG.

 

Luc / ISAM

 

As for Lord Luc / ISAM, why he runs to this tower is a mystery to me. But I always wondered how two people were merged into one, why Slayer is so alien in his PoV to anything remotely human. Think about Good, Evil, and Finn Evil, if I had to catagorise Slayer I'd put him in as "Finn Evil" he is indifferent, he does not worship the DO but he serves as kind of a mercenary. It may be that the Finns had some role in the joining of Luc / ISAM and his alien nature is a result.

Alien to anything even remotely human? What the bloody hell are you talking about?!? Why he runs to the Tower? To lure Perrin there, perhaps. I see no reason to believe that Slayer has any connection to the Finn, and no reason to believe that he was created by anyone other than Shai'tan/the Shadow. He works for them, and his two component parts were last seen in the Blight. Not Finnland.

 

Slayer's abilities seem neither to do with the power, or the DO. Some have speculated that he is a Dark Wolf brother, however he clearly has no ties to the DO whatsoever as proven in his PoV on a few occasions. I speculate that his powers are more to do with his link to the Finn and their being situated outside the Pattern. Slayer can seemingly enter / leave the dream at will, yet we know he cannot channel. This is a power neither of the Shadow or the Light, it seems to fit in more with the Finns.

I see no reason to accept any of this. Why would entering T'A'R have anything to do with the Finn? Why are they outside the Pattern? What evidence do you have for any of this?

 

The Finns and the Shadow

 

There is little that tells us why the Finns do not allow questions relating to the Shadow, but we do know they are not allied with them, nor with the Light. They clearly do not think in concept of Light or Shadow. They sit outside the Pattern, but who else does? The Dark One.

Again, where is the evidence that they sit outside the Pattern? Or the evidence that they do not think in concepts of Light and Shadow, or that they take no part? Questions that touch on the Shadow may be punished. That indicates that they can distinguish between the two, and that they seemingly have a preference for one over the other.

The Dark One cannot touch the pattern, except through the Bore. The Finns are outside the Pattern but can clearly influence / manipulate it. This is where it gets hazy. They seem to have more power than the DO, they seem to have power very close to the Creator but under strict guidelines.

Where are you getting this? Power close to the Creator? Strict guidelines? Can influence/manipulate the Pattern? Damn it man, give evidence to support this rubbish, rather than just spending a lot of time saying nothing.

 

Also, the most likely explanation for what happened the trip through the Doorway is that both Lanfear and Moiriane were Severed from the OP. Messing about with ter'angreal can be dangerous, and this one went into meltdown. We know of 2 things which can cut the bond, and we know Moiraine isn't dead. Therefore we either invent new stuff for no reason or we say she was Severed. Cyndane is weaker than Lanfear, and the only thing we know of that can do that is Severing being Healed by a member of the same sex. All the evidence fits them being Severed. None indicates otherwise.

[Guest adamld]

Clearly you live for these little debates, I do not.

 

My thoughts have been posted, I have no interest in going through the books line by line looking for page references.

 

All I can suggest is you read the books, then read them again. There is many references in them to the nature of the Finns and those are where I have drawn my conclusions from.

 

Moirane herself made the statements about their nature, and that they have no ties with the Shadow.

 

The nature of their world is such that it is not bound by the rules of reality as most worlds are. Reference is Mat's PoV and his experiences there, the rooms that look out on impossible directions and doors that disappear. The fact that two may enter and not see each other.

 

You speak of the doorways and the ToG but these are made things, two are Ter'Angreal and one is a mysterious metallic tower of unknown origin. The fact that they provide entrance to the Finns realm does not at all suggest their realm is part of that world.

 

Their powers to give gifts or answer questions, divine the future, not even the DO knows the future.

 

And you have clearly missed Slayer's POV's and his thoughts on the Shadow. He is most definately not their creature.

 

I have no intention of arguing my debating with you, because from your replies I personally don't think you've read through carefully enough, and because they are not hard facts merely what I have cobbled together from over 15 years of reading.

 

Read some more, specifically the passages where Moiraine describes the Finn, and Matt and Rand's PoV, and Slayer's PoV's and I'll be happy to discuss.