Moraine, Lanfear, Mat, And The Finns

[Luckers]

So... 'I'm right, go find evidence for me?'

 

The fact is you are not right. You're not entirely wrong, though elements of what you said are indeed wrong, but mostly you're just unsupported--and piece of advice, don't try telling me that I need to read the books again.

 

All I can suggest is you read the books, then read them again. There is many references in them to the nature of the Finns and those are where I have drawn my conclusions from.

 

Your conclusions being,

 

Much evidence suggests the Finns operate outside the wheel. e.g You cannot alter the pattern at will if you are part of it.

 

Unfortunately this is quite wrong. RJ has stated that the Finns both have souls, and are a part of the pattern. Nor indeed are their abilities infinite. They have several limitations, off memory i know that for instance they don't have the power to transmigrate souls. Furthermore the Pattern is not a deterministic enviroment, it has room for shifting ta'maral'ailen. Indeed, that very concept is the basis of ta'veren--i.e. logically, the Finns would not need to be outside the pattern to alter it.

 

Their nature is one of complete indifference to man, to Light, and Shadow. The concept of good and evil is irrelevant to the Finns because they do not participate in the pattern.

 

This is both true and untrue... they arn't completely indifferent to men, they reguard them with desire for memories, not to mention at times with degrees of fear and wariness. But that being said i suspect your point was more directed at suggesting nuetrility in the fight between the Light and the Shadow. To that i say perhaps. The Finns actively discourage questions touching the Shadow suggesting some concern, and indeed if the Dark One attained his freedom they would be at as much risk as any--and given they shy away from Rand, and actively discourage things that hurt them (light, music, iron) they have displayed a degree of self-interest. Certainly they are refusing to participate directly, but to say they are indifferent seems... innaccurate.

 

The rest is merely unsupported. To say they have no concept of good and evil is, at best, a stretch, and at worse completely made up. We've not been exposed to their philosophies or lack their of, not to their thinkers and their leaders. We've heard no comments indicative of either a lack of moral compass, or the presense of one. We simply don't know.

 

Think about their origins, they are outside reality, there are no obvious links between the world of the finns and the world in which rand resides.

 

Indeed, this is wrong, much as Ares states. The Finn world is a parallel world, which means like all parallel worlds is connected by the lines of what might have been--which may just be mystic mumbo-jumbo, but nonetheless means the two worlds stem from a single source, far back in history.

 

Now, back to your most recent post.

 

Moirane herself made the statements about their nature, and that they have no ties with the Shadow.

 

True, yet that does not speak to what you have suggested.

 

The nature of their world is such that it is not bound by the rules of reality as most worlds are. Reference is Mat's PoV and his experiences there, the rooms that look out on impossible directions and doors that disappear. The fact that two may enter and not see each other.

 

Again, true... well in part, you imply there is a normal state of reality that worlds must abide by and that is false. Most worlds are not bound by the same rules as the one from the books--its said several times that reality varies from world to world, the Finns included. Because it is a parallel world, as indeed is the world of the Ogier.

 

And your inference that the different state of reality in the realm of the Finns means it is in some way special, or outside reality, is also false. It is a parallel world, and yes, of course it is therefore different, but that speaks to naught.

 

You speak of the doorways and the ToG but these are made things, two are Ter'Angreal and one is a mysterious metallic tower of unknown origin. The fact that they provide entrance to the Finns realm does not at all suggest their realm is part of that world.

 

... what? What world? The main world in the books? Of course the finns realm isn't a part of that world.

 

Their powers to give gifts or answer questions, divine the future, not even the DO knows the future.

 

No, but Min does. And Foretellers. And to a lesser extent Dreamers, though theirs is an inexact knowledge. In any case i fail to see your point--their powers are not without limits, and though extensive, having power is not a sign of being outside reality.

 

And you have clearly missed Slayer's POV's and his thoughts on the Shadow. He is most definately not their creature.

 

Umm, yes he is. Can he think for himself? Certainly. Does he have personal ambition? Absolutely. Is he ultimately a servant and tool of the Shadow? Completely.

 

I have no intention of arguing my debating with you, because from your replies I personally don't think you've read through carefully enough, and because they are not hard facts merely what I have cobbled together from over 15 years of reading.

 

For the sake of pleasentness, i won't respond to that. :)

 

 

[bRANDan]

I just realised something, the finns use bronze an awful lot it seems. Mat has a use for an awful lot of bronze. Those Dragons? It would take quite awhile to cast enough to make them worth any tactical advantage before TG. Could it be possible that Mat strikes a deal with the 'finns and leaves with the dragons already made, leaving only the dragon's eggs to be produced? I just thought of this while reading over the posts, but it does seem to make sense. Otherwise would they have enough time to cast enough dragons to be effective before TG? I don't think they have that time. This has always been something that bugged me.

[Guest adamld]

As I said, I do not live for the debate as some of you clearly do. I posted my thoughts and you are welcome to dissect them as you most clearly enjoy doing.

 

I have read these forums and notice there are those who like nothing more than to jump on anyone who posts a different theory to theirs and as a moderator you should show some restraint.

 

I unlike you am open to your point of view, some of the points you raised are valid, and what I write isn't set in stone, with insights from others I can complete the picture that I've been forming over the years. Yet that does not seem to be how you operate, it's clear you are all about judging people right or wrong and demanding evidence for their thoughts they've shared with you.

 

I prefixed my post with "These are my thoughts on the subject". The fact they you are so well versed on jumping on anyone who ventures an idea you do not agree with speaks volumes. I think you've missed the fact that I didn't state everything as fact, merely what I thought from reading the books dozens of times each.

 

You should learn not to jump on people so quickly, whatever you believe about your knowledge of these books the attitude displayed towards this site's visitors when they share their thoughts is not very welcoming.

 

I'll make things very easy for you, you and Ares are right. I'm wrong. Very wrong, I should have consulted you before posting ;)

 

[Mr Ares]

You speak of the doorways and the ToG but these are made things, two are Ter'Angreal and one is a mysterious metallic tower of unknown origin. The fact that they provide entrance to the Finns realm does not at all suggest their realm is part of that world.

I didn't say they were part of the same world.

Think about their origins, they are outside reality, there are no obvious links between the world of the finns and the world in which rand resides.

Outside reality? Evidence? They are in a parallel world, separate but connected. There are obvious links - the Doorways and the ToG.

See? I said there were obvious connections. What you say about having read these books dozens of times each isn't all that impressive. Aside from the fact that your understanding of the books is flawed, you also failed to read my post properly.

 

I'll make things very easy for you, you and Ares are right. I'm wrong. Very wrong, I should have consulted you before posting

My name is Mr Ares. Get it right. And this is not about consulting us before posting. You offered up your thoughts. I asked why you thought that way, and was told to read the books again and find the evidence for you. Luckers provided further evidence of why you were wrong. You just come back with the poor little me, hard done by act. Guess what? You're not fooling anyone.

 

I unlike you am open to your point of view, some of the points you raised are valid, and what I write isn't set in stone, with insights from others I can complete the picture that I've been forming over the years. Yet that does not seem to be how you operate, it's clear you are all about judging people right or wrong and demanding evidence for their thoughts they've shared with you.

Myself and Luckers are both most certainly open to new points of view. We just prefer them (as do most people here) to be based in fact, rather than just your wishful thinking. I asked why you thought the way you did. If you could have backed that up, then I could have learned something new about the books. Or I could have proved you wrong, and you could have learned something. You see why it makes sense to debate?

 

I have no intention of arguing my debating with you, because from your replies I personally don't think you've read through carefully enough, and because they are not hard facts merely what I have cobbled together from over 15 years of reading.

For the sake of pleasentness, i won't respond to that.

Luckers, you are too nice for your own good.

[Luckers]

adamld, I am disconcerted to here you say that you think i dismissed you simply because you disagree with me. I felt I was quite clear in seperating where i disagreed with you because of a difference in personal interpretation, and where the facts proved you to be wrong. Perhaps you could clarrify this by pointing out to me where you felt I unfairly dismissed your opinions and why.

 

 

[The Lost One]

adamld, thank you for sharing your thoughts and ideas on the Finns.  I enjoyed reading your post and some of your ideas answer some questions I had myself.  Your post gives me a different perspective on the Finns, especially with the amount of power they do have.  I am now wondering what kind of constraits they do have on the wishes they grant.  As you stated, there are probably some strict guidelines they must follow, I just don't know who or what sets those guidelines.

 

The Finns are definately interesting to say the least.  I hope we get to understand more about them in the next book. 

[Guest Dreadlord]

This is my theory of what happened.

 

Moiraine tackles Lanfear, Lanfear drops the angreal while holding more Saidar than she can unaided. They hurtle through the doorway, Lanfear is stilled before they hit the ground, just after releasing the weave that stilled Moiraine. Both women are apprehended by the Finns. The Finns put Lanfear into isolation seeing as she is of the Shadow. Moiraine is interrogated by the Finns, she tells them they are in danger from the Forsaken, who would cast aside any agreement the Finns make if they would gain from it. The Finns offer Moiraine three wishes-she asks for them to kill Lanfear, but she is reincarnated as Cyndane, slightly weakened because she was stilled in her last body. Moiraines second wish is for the Finns to keep her alive until she is rescued, and the third is that her rescuers be spared when they come for her, if one agrees to make a sacrifice in honor of the new agreement.

 

 

[Luckers]

The women both clutch the angreal as they go through, so the angreal goes with them, and even if it were dropped beyond physical contact is not required to use an angreal.

 

Far more likely is that the simply act of passing through the ter'angreal in the manner they did, channeling as they were was the cause. We are warned time and again of the dangers of channeling around ter'angreal--and this ter'angreal was destroyed by what they did. From that alone I would have been shocked if they hadn't been burned out. The later evidence merely makes it certain.

 

It is also extremely unlikely that either woman was offered wishes. Even ignoring that the destrcution of the ter'angreal most probably caused a fire, thus voiding the Agreement, the way the women arrived precludes offering such a service. They destroyed a valuable source of trade for the Finns, and you don't offer service to someone who's just kicked down the door of your shop. They Finn arn't fairies bound to magically serve humanity under certain rules... they are a people humans had a treaty with, and as fickle as any, as we know for a fact given that we've seen them wearing human skin.

[Hunter]

Lucker and ares, his point was simple. He had an opinion, he posted it, and you two jumped down his throat. There was no need for that, and your attitudes are detrimental to a discussion board.

[balefireruinssteaks]

Lanfear obviously died or she wouldn't have had to be restored to live in another body.

 

She could have died because she is Lanfear, or she could have just landed wrong when they went through and broken her neck.  Obviously we have to wait for Mat and Thom to go get her.  Mat makes me think of iron, Thom makes me think of music. Maybe someone else will use fire, who knows?

 

I'm excited though because I've been waiting for Moiraine to come back ever since Amys told Rand he was a fool for thinking she was dead.

[Luckers]

Hunter, I respectfully disagree. He offered his opinion in a discussion forum, Ares disagreed, and he proceeded to dismiss Ares--as, i believe, a man that had not read the books well enough, and a nerd who got too involved in these debates. That is not permissable, and you are more than correct that i will demand any poster doing it to back themselves up.

 

In any case that matter has been resolved between adamld and I, and he has been informed of the avenues he can use if he wishes to continue it. How bout we all let it drop and get back to having fun?

 

I'm excited though because I've been waiting for Moiraine to come back ever since Amys told Rand he was a fool for thinking she was dead.

 

Me too... but was anyone else disapointed with her letter in KoD? It lacked all of her usual elegance. It was one step away from being a high school love note. "Hey Thom, I'm like, totally in love with you and shit. Your like, hot and dreamy and your moustache is so totally awesome! After you come rescue me from these like totally dorky finn people do you wanna go to prom? Oh, bring Mat and some other dude... my friends like totally need dates too."

 

I love Moiraine though. She is probably my favourite character and i cant wait to see her back in the game.

[balefireruinssteaks]

I was a little disappointed, especially since I got so panicked over her letter that she wrote Rand before she battled Lanfear.  I expected more I guess. 

 

But yea i'm stoked about Moiraine's return.  I'm really curious what she's going to do in TG since she's a key.  And I'm also excited that in returning to Rand she has to come in contact with Cadsuane again, hahaha.  That should be fun.

[Luckers]

I'm more interested in seeing her deal with Mat and Egwene. I meaning, dealings with Cadsuane always rock, but dealing with figures who were so much less when last you saw them...?

 

And yeah i loved the letter she wrote Rand. I teared up the first time I read 'you will do well.' heh.

[wvlr]

Me too... but was anyone else disapointed with her letter in KoD? It lacked all of her usual elegance. It was one step away from being a high school love note. "Hey Thom, I'm like, totally in love with you and shit. Your like, hot and dreamy and your moustache is so totally awesome! After you come rescue me from these like totally dorky finn people do you wanna go to prom? Oh, bring Mat and some other dude... my friends like totally need dates too."

 

What!!!!    That is not how I read the letter at all!    If anything, to me it sounded way to impersonal - but considering that she knew that mat was going to be reading it - I figured that between that and Moraine's normal "reserved" style that it was understandable.

 

Did anyone else think that it was to mushy/high schoolish?

 

Now I have to go down to the car to get my copy and re-read it to see what I missed.  ;D ;D

[bRANDan]

I didn't see it as mushy, but I did find it decidedly lacking. But that may be because, as you said, she was aware others besides Thom would be reading it, so the letter was trying to talk to two people at once. Knowing Moiraine I don't think she would be very comfortable writing "Oh Thom, make love to me, please" and then have the likes of Matrim Cauthon reading it.

 

Needs must as the Dark One drives.

BTW, what does the Dark One drive? I can't see a being centred around chaos being a very good driver, I would like to have some warning when He is on the road. He drives a maroon Ford Taurus doesn't He, I thought that was stygian fire covering that jerk that almost hit me today.

[wvlr]

Needs must as the Dark One drives.

BTW, what does the Dark One drive? I can't see a being centred around chaos being a very good driver, I would like to have some warning when He is on the road. He drives a maroon Ford Taurus doesn't He, I thought that was stygian fire covering that jerk that almost hit me today.

 

No.    The DO drives a 1975 Caddy Boat and it is BIG and not quite gold colored.   Believe me, when you see THAT coming - YOU KNOW TO GET OFF THE ROAD!    She is a little old lady usually heading to/from the liquer store to get another bottle of Vodka.    One bottle lasts her about two days.    Bless her little Pee Picking Heart!    I have seen people a full city block away pull  frantically into a parking lot to get out of her way.    No Lie!!   No Exageration!

 

 

OOPS!    Did I forget to mention that she is half blind from Caratacts and can barely see over the steering wheel!

[Corbett]

I didnt really see alot of the mushy stuff that Luckers saw. I think its all a matter of opinion. I think that she wanted to say more to Thom especially but because others would be reading it and she needed to get the importan "come save me" stuff in it she decided not to.

[balefireruinssteaks]

well, she's Cairhienin remember and they are very reserved when it comes to love and public displays of affection.  I doubt her modesty would allow her to write something so graphic in a letter, even.  She would have waited to tell Thom something in private.  She also knew she could write in code because Thom is accounted a very good player of daes damer.

 

what is the age difference between Moiraine and Thom.  If i'm thinking correctly isn't Moiraine in her late thirties or early forties?  Novices are 12 or 13...three years novice/three years Accepted (18-20 when she was raised to Aes Sedai) and then 20 years searching for the Dragon Reborn (38-40yrs).  Thom seems slightly older, maybe late forties/early fifties.

 

She'll probably make him her new Warder in place of Lan.

[Luckers]

My issue was more the change. She goes from treating him like she did in Tear to, 'my darling Thom'. It's just... not her, and also yeah, kind of cheasy.

[Luthine]

My issue was more the change. She goes from treating him like she did in Tear to, 'my darling Thom'

 

"My dearest" actually  ;) but yeah, totally.

I can understand that with her experience in Rhuidean, she knew she would fall for Thom and she eventually accepted it, or simply became aware of the feelings she already had, but where did she pick up that the feeling was reciprocated?

In Rhuidean also?

 

Was there any sign that he had come to hold her in deep affection? Or was there sings of it in their last scene in Tear?

 

It also just occured to me that considering the fact that she may not be rescued (in her opinion, not mine) she might have considered the letter as a farewell, and her last chance to tell him how she felt, hence her border-line-cheasy tone.

[balefireruinssteaks]

they are both extremely skilled in picking up subtleties.

 

I imagine there were underlying messages between them that we were perhaps not privy to.  They could say a lot by not saying much at all.

 

With Moiraine aware that she and Lanfear were going to battle, and the liklihood that she might actually survive but need Thom and Mat's help to return to the world she probably wrote the letter "my dearest Thom" in order to touch those emotions to insure that he would actually come for her.

 

Do we know what Min's viewing of Moiraine was?  I never could figure that out.