Taim = Demandred

[wvlr]

I know that RJ has now stated that - THEY ARE NOT THE SAME - But is that a recent change?    Did RJ screw up Demandred's POV at the Cleansing such that he wrote himself into a corner and had to abort his original plan of Taim  =  Demandred?

 

Prior to the cleansing RJ stated that we had seen all the Forsaken - Counterparts.

 

After the Cleansing, he backtracks and says that we have not.

 

 

I really think that he originaly planned for Taim  =  Demandred but just made a mistake in Demandred's POV at the Cleansing.

 

What are your feelings on this?    Has anyone ever asked him?

[Majsju]

My thoughts is that RJ does not lie to his fans, ie Taimandred has never been.

[Kadere]

RJ had this whole thing plotted out in his head forever down to the smallest detail. And Taim = Demandred is not a small detail. If he'd ment for them to be the same, then Demandred would have recognized the Asha'man at the Cleansing. Taim was never Demandred as stated numerous times by RJ. If he was, we would know by now. RJ wouldn't sacrifice his story like that.

[wvlr]

Who said RJ was lying?

 

But if he does not make mistakes then explain these two mutually exclusive statements:

 

 

 

---  Prior to the Cleansing RJ stated that we had seen all the Forsaken - Counterparts.

 

---  After the Cleansing, he backtracks and says that we have not.

 

 

They can not BOTH be true!    So SOMETHING had to have changed!

 

[Majsju]

Prior to the Cleansing RJ stated that we had seen all the Forsaken - Counterparts.

 

I can't recall him saying any such thing. And it does seem quite unlikely he would have, since the first time we meet Anath (Semirhages counterpart) is in WH.

 

But even if he had said this, and just forgot about Semirhage, it does not contradict us never having seen who demandred might be posing as. He could simply have meant that we have seen all counterparts. Nothing says that Demandred actually has one.

[DemandredFO]

I agree that there are some goofs in the earlier books. the shimmer travel being the prime, unless there is a logical explanation that I haven't seen.  This is a small thing, Taimadred would not be.  Taimadred was a red-herring.

[Guest cw]

Sigh...  Must this get brought up again?  It isn't true, it never was true and it wasn't planned to be true.

 

While their are red herrings in the books, Taimandred wasn't even one of them.  Too qualify for that, it would imply that Jordan wanted people to think that.  Everything I can recall seeing from Jordan indicates he was surprised people ever thought they were the same.  Taimandred was pure wishful thinking among readers.

[elmis]

I think maybe he meant for Taim to be Demandread, but with all the boards, pages, theories ect, where everyone and their mother taking the Taimandread theory as a fact, he decided to throw a curve ball and change it up.

 

Or he could just have thrown the hints out there to watch us fans squirm and theorize for laughs. :)

[Majsju]

RJ never changed anything because of something he saw on a forum.

 

Taimandred was not a deliberate ruse, though once he did notice the theories he decided to keep us in the dark for a while, just because he enjoyed watching us squirm.

[elmis]

You do realize that you just contradicted yourself in your post there? :)

 

Anyway, what we know 110% is that Taim =! Demandred. As for what RJ has done/hasn't done with the story is, and will continue to be, pure speculation.

[Darth_Andrea]

Taim seems to have some connection to Bal`al though what that is we don't yet know. And for another, Notice that in almost every occasion when one of the forsaken as gotten near one of the boys waring the mask of mirrors their taverinness seems to disrupt it. The only exception being Lanfear and when poseing as Saline. Though when she was useing it to make her self look like that novice, Els Grinwell, she avoided comming to close to Matt, she made him move to the far side of the walkway so avoid it shimmering on her. So if Taim was one of the original 13 using mask of mirrors I doubt it would have held when Rand touched him or got with in arms reach.

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]     

[Guest cw]

Be'lal was balefired at the end of The Dragon Reborn.  I'm afraid his diagnoses was worse than terminal.  He is in no shape to be having connections with anyone.

[Majsju]

 

You do realize that you just contradicted yourself in your post there? :)

 

Not at all. He apparently did not change anything in the story. He did however RAFO any question regarding taimandred for years.

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

 

Jordan: I was surprised…but I wasn’t going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.

http://p094.ezboard.com/Second-QampA--Saturday/ftheorylandfrm30.showMessage?topicID=1.topic

 

Anyway, what we know 110% is that Taim =! Demandred. As for what RJ has done/hasn't done with the story is, and will continue to be, pure speculation.

 

For Corin Ashaman, I’ve never changed anything because of a post.  I did think of doing so when I first discovered the online community.  I’d see someone who had figured out where I was going with something and think that I should change it just to keep the surprise factor.  But there was always somebody else, often a lot of somebodies, who would post explaining why the first post just had to be wrong.  So I went ahead and did what I had planned to do.  Now, when somebody figures out what’s what, I just think that’s somebody who’s on the ball and go on with my writing.

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?m=200510

 

 

 

[Darth_Andrea]

Be'lal was balefired at the end of The Dragon Reborn.  I'm afraid his diagnoses was worse than terminal.  He is in no shape to be having connections with anyone.

 

I don't argue that point. But still the connection exists, Taim is useing the same sigle that Be'lal used in Tear. (A clinched fist holding lightning bolts) Either he is a dread lord who was under Be`lal's thumb or is now chosen and that sign means something in the army of the DO we don't know. One or the other it's too much other wise.

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]   

[wvlr]

For Corin Ashaman, I’ve never changed anything because of a post.  I did think of doing so when I first discovered the online community.  I’d see someone who had figured out where I was going with something and think that I should change it just to keep the surprise factor.  But there was always somebody else, often a lot of somebodies, who would post explaining why the first post just had to be wrong.  So I went ahead and did what I had planned to do.  Now, when somebody figures out what’s what, I just think that’s somebody who’s on the ball and go on with my writing.

http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?m=200510

 

Actually, that only addresses changing things that were "figured out" by readers.    It does not address issues where he realized (or it was brought to his attention) that he had made an error and needed to change things because of it.

 

You can not lump the later with the former.

 

 

 

 

 

If you read the original post of this thread - it does not address at all the issue of him changing because someone "figured out" where he was going with a plot thread.

 

Instead it addresses the possibility that RJ made a minor mistake and had to chnage things because of that minor mistake.

 

 

I know that RJ has now stated that - THEY ARE NOT THE SAME - But is that a recent change?     Did RJ screw up Demandred's POV at the Cleansing such that he wrote himself into a corner and had to abort his original plan of Taim  =  Demandred?

 

Prior to the cleansing RJ stated that we had seen all the Forsaken - Counterparts.

 

After the Cleansing, he backtracks and says that we have not.

 

 

I really think that he originaly planned for Taim  =  Demandred but just made a mistake in Demandred's POV at the Cleansing.

 

What are your feelings on this?     Has anyone ever asked him?

[Majsju]

Oops.

 

Old habit when it comes to taimandred theories, I don't even read them thoroughly anymore ;D

 

However, If Taimandred had been a reality, it would have been such a huge thing that I find it close to impossible that RJ would change it just because of a relatively small mistake. Imagine how much he would have to change the story to make room for both Taim and Demandred, instead of just swallowing the bitterpill, and admit he made a mistake. It makes no sense at all.

[wvlr]

Oops.

 

Old habit when it comes to taimandred theories, I don't even read them thoroughly anymore ;D

 

However, If Taimandred had been a reality, it would have been such a huge thing that I find it close to impossible that RJ would change it just because of a relatively small mistake. Imagine how much he would have to change the story to make room for both Taim and Demandred, instead of just swallowing the bitterpill, and admit he made a mistake. It makes no sense at all.

 

No problem!!  ;)

 

The small error that I am refering to is at the Cleansing where Demandred did not recognize Flinn.  Since Flinn was the first man Taim tested at the BT and it made a significant impression on him and as he mentioned later Flinn was strong enough to make Gateways almost immediately and he trained Flinn.    Then at the Cleansing Demandred did not recognize Flinn and doubted that an Old man like that could channel.

 

If T=D then Demandred would not have made that mistake.   

 

I think that RJ inadvertently used close to the same words when both men see Flinn with the intention of tying them together and by doing that he in advertently created a situation that they could not be the same.

 

I hope that is clear.  ???

[Majsju]

I think that RJ inadvertently used close to the same words when both men see Flinn with the intention of tying them together and by doing that he in advertently created a situation that they could not be the same.

 

This adds even more to the reasons why I'm quite convinced (to say the least) that you are wrong. RJ would intentionally use the same wording, and then make such a mistake in almost the same sentence?

Well, perhaps if he wrote that part when he was drunk, and then forgot to reread it before sending it to be edited.

 

If RJ had intended for T=D, he would either later have admitted he made a small mistake, or come up with some "explanation" like "Uhm, well Demandred did not get a good look at Flinns face because a tree branch was in the way...

[wvlr]

Well, perhaps if he wrote that part when he was drunk, and then forgot to reread it before sending it to be edited.

 

I don't agree.    By that point the series was thousands and thousands of words and there was significant pressure to get the next one out.  It could have easily happened.

 

 

  If RJ had intended for T=D, he would either later have admitted he made a small mistake, or come up with some "explanation" like "Uhm, well Demandred did not get a good look at Flinns face because a tree branch was in the way...

 

Yes, he could have done that or he could have gone the way that he did, thinking that he could easily work it into the story.    It depends of when he realized it and what option he like best.   

 

Maybe he like the idea of Be'lal being caught by the DO because Moraine's Balefore was so weak.    Or maybe he like Taim being a new Dreadlord beter.    Or maybe he liked Taim being one of Ishy's students.    Or Taim caught in Samuels stasis box.    Or something else.

 

Unfortunately, this is one of those things that we will probably never really know for sure.

 

:'( :'( :'(

[Majsju]

I don't agree.    By that point the series was thousands and thousands of words and there was significant pressure to get the next one out.  It could have easily happened.

 

No way. We are talking about almost the same sentence here, not two passages separated by 300 pages. If your theory had been true, it would be such a huge thing that RJ would pay extra attention to make sure it came out correct.

 

And yes, the series was thousands and thousands of words, with a significant pressure to get the next one out. Do you really think that at such point, RJ would, rather than admit he made a mistake, sit down and rewrite chunks of the plot, create an entire backstory for a wildcard he gets from out of nowhere, sit down and reread every single passage that even refers to taim to make sure he gets everything covered, then do the same with demandred, whose character he also has to consider changing...?

 

Unfortunately, this is one of those things that we will probably never really know for sure.

 

There are so many hints against taimandred pre-WH that I think we do know for sure.

[Tyrell]

Taim seems to have some connection to Bal`al though what that is we don't yet know. And for another, Notice that in almost every occasion when one of the forsaken as gotten near one of the boys waring the mask of mirrors their taverinness seems to disrupt it. The only exception being Lanfear and when poseing as Saline. Though when she was useing it to make her self look like that novice, Els Grinwell, she avoided comming to close to Matt, she made him move to the far side of the walkway so avoid it shimmering on her. So if Taim was one of the original 13 using mask of mirrors I doubt it would have held when Rand touched him or got with in arms reach.

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]     

 

Emphasis mine.

 

I'm wondering what you mean by "almost every occassion..." so far as I remember we have the following uses of the Mirror of the Mists / Mask of Mirrors:

 

Lanfear - Repetedly, often as Selene, around Rand and once Mat too I believe. Mask of Mirrors remains unbroken. Also as Kelle around Rand and Mat alot, Mask of Mirrors remains in place.

 

Mesaana - Uses Mask of Mirrors, but never in the presence of a Ta'veren

 

Graendal - Ditto

 

Semirhage - Used Mask of Mirrors to pose as Tuon, Broken by Cadsuane's Ter'Angreal

 

So in terms of "Mask of Mirrors verses Ta'veren" I think we can say that Ta'veren-ness has nothing to do with breaking the Mask of Mirrors, given that we've had a single encounter in which the illusion weave was broken, but numerous in which it remains in place.

[wvlr]

No way. We are talking about almost the same sentence here, not two passages separated by 300 pages.

 

I'm not sure what you are saying here.    Taim testing Flinn at the Black Tower and Demandred at the Cleansing is well over 300 pages difference.     They are not in the same paragraph.    I must not be understanding your statement, because it just makes no sense to me. :-\

 

 

 

 

 

If your theory had been true, it would be such a huge thing that RJ would pay extra attention to make sure it came out correct.

 

I like RJ a lot.   He is one of my three favorite authors, but he was still human.    And humans make mistakes.    Given the thousands and thousands of words in these books - I don't think that it is impossible.    Actually in this ONE instance - I think that it is highly likely.

 

 

 

 

 

There are so many hints against taimandred pre-WH that I think we do know for sure.

 

I'm sorry but I can not think of ANY!     If you have some please post them.  

 

Seriously!    I can not think of ONE pre-WH!

[Cillian]

No way. We are talking about almost the same sentence here, not two passages separated by 300 pages. If your theory had been true, it would be such a huge thing that RJ would pay extra attention to make sure it came out correct.

 

And yes, the series was thousands and thousands of words, with a significant pressure to get the next one out. Do you really think that at such point, RJ would, rather than admit he made a mistake, sit down and rewrite chunks of the plot, create an entire backstory for a wildcard he gets from out of nowhere, sit down and reread every single passage that even refers to taim to make sure he gets everything covered, then do the same with demandred, whose character he also has to consider changing...?

 

There are so many hints against taimandred pre-WH that I think we do know for sure.

I'll back it up by using a quote from earlier in the thread

 

Emma: Was Taimandred a deliberate ruse to lead your readers astray, or were you surprised (by the all of the theories connecting Taim to Demandred)?

 

Jordan: I was surprised…but I wasn’t going to disabuse you of it for a while, I like to watch you squirm.

 

Why would he be surprised of fans making a connection between the two if he had originally intended the connection to be there?

Answer = He never intended it, therefore was surprised.

 

 

[Majsju]

I'm not sure what you are saying here.    Taim testing Flinn at the Black Tower and Demandred at the Cleansing is well over 300 pages difference.    They are not in the same paragraph.    I must not be understanding your statement, because it just makes no sense to me

 

I'm not talking about Taim at the BT, I'm talking about Demandred at the cleansing. First when he sees Flinn, the part you want to think is RJ attempting to connect with Taim at the BT. This would be the huge revelation if RJ had had any intentions to reveal Taimandred. This is immidiatly followed by Demandred not recognising Flinn, the part you want to think is a mistake.

 

I'm sorry but I can not think of ANY!    If you have some please post them. 

 

Seriously!    I can not think of ONE pre-WH!

 

Start with Taim being in his late 20s, and Demandred somewhere between 3-400 years. Since Rand has touched Taim, Mask of Mirrors seem quite unlikely.

 

Osan'gar being sent to the BT. Two forsaken having the same base is pretty much unheard of, and makes very little sense. When this happens, Be'lal, Rahvin and Asmo are gone forever, while Moghedien is a captive in Salidar. Putting two of the few remaining forsaken at the same place would be quite a waste of resources, especially since Rand has made it clear he will not be spending very much time at the BT.

Sending Osan'gar to check out how the promising Third Age DF is doing, on the other hand...

 

Dumais Wells. The kidnapping of Rand would have delivered him safely shielded straight into mesaanas hands. Mesaana who is a close ally to Demandred.

 

Etc.

[wvlr]

Edited to Add EVERYTHING!!!  Sorry about that Chief!

 

 

I'm not talking about Taim at the BT, I'm talking about Demandred at the cleansing. First when he sees Flinn, the part you want to think is RJ attempting to connect with Taim at the BT. This would be the huge revelation if RJ had had any intentions to reveal Taimandred. This is immidiatly followed by Demandred not recognising Flinn, the part you want to think is a mistake.

 

Thanks for clarifying that for me.    I just did not see what you were getting at.  Now I do.

 

I still disagree though.  This would have just been another of the assorted clues that he dropped on us over the previous books.    It was not intended to be a sure thing.    Just like the Hook nose, LT going off the deep end, the "so called" remarks.

 

The big reveal was going to be in CoT.    At lease that is my guess.

 

 

 

 

 

Start with Taim being in his late 20s, and Demandred somewhere between 3-400 years. Since Rand has touched Taim, Mask of Mirrors seem quite unlikely.

 

Sorry but you have nothing with these examples.    Nothing at all.   

 

Rand thought Taim was older than his late twenties when he first meets him and it is only RJs later comments that peg him at Late twenties.    Nothing in the books.   

 

Then above and beyond that - What male channelers does Rand or anyone have to compare him with?    The main channelers that we have seen (Asedi) are "distorted" by the Oath Rod.  Without it they look enormously different, Not just a little bit but Suane and Leane were unrecognizable and much younger.

 

Mask of Mirrors is not argument either.    Look at how much time Lanfear spent around Rand wearing assorted disguises.    Some hugely different!    If Lanfear can do it, I would think that Demandred could.  Lanfear did a more than a little "touching" of Rand during many of these occasions.

 

Especially since Rands visits to Taim are always cut short because he has LT ranting in his head every time the come together. 

 

 

 

 

 

Osan'gar being sent to the BT. Two forsaken having the same base is pretty much unheard of, and makes very little sense. When this happens, Be'lal, Rahvin and Asmo are gone forever, while Moghedien is a captive in Salidar. Putting two of the few remaining forsaken at the same place would be quite a waste of resources, especially since Rand has made it clear he will not be spending very much time at the BT.

Sending Osan'gar to check out how the promising Third Age DF is doing, on the other hand...

 

On the surface this sounds like your best argument, but try thinking a little deeper.

 

Example being the KoD Fight at the Farm.    Just a few channelers are worthe hundreds of thousands of regular troops (Trollocks or soldiers).

 

The Shadow has two different Forsaken in the WT - Messana AND Himelia AND quite a few Black Adja.    Yes the Tower is Split but effectively the Shadow HAS allocated TWO of the (as you so kindly pointed out) scarce Forsaken resources to double cover the WT.    Plus they have the BACK-up of the Black Adja!!!      Gee Channeling resources MUST be important!    Very important!    Especially to use a completely unrecognizable Male Channeling / Changed body Forsaken with a group that already had Messana and many BAs in place.

 

Now lets think - when did Himalia join the WT ® -  probably not that different a time than Osan'ga/Dashiva went to the BT.

 

 

Still, why waste the resources?    Well Body for Body, an Ash'aman is much more valuable than an AS.    Sure Women can link - that increases the power but reduces the number.    So this establishes that an organization of Male channelers WOULD be among the most important assets to secure.  Maybe more important that the WT, which was allocated 2+ Forsaken.

 

On top of that - If Taim/Demandred was discovered wouldn't the DO want to have at least 1 back-up for Taim in this extreemly important group?    The plan may have been for Dashiva to make himself promenant but not too promenent so that he could take over if Taim was discovered.

 

No one could have guessed that Rand would pick him for one of the bodyguards or that Logain would be Healed and Join the group.

 

 

 

 

Dumais Wells. The kidnapping of Rand would have delivered him safely shielded straight into mesaanas hands. Mesaana who is a close ally to Demandred.

 

Yes - we have seen how well the Forsaken have support each other - even when they were supposid allies.    Especially if Messana did not clear the operation with Demandred first.    I have seen no signs that she did.    Maybe Demandread felt that she was taking Rand away from him?    Wasn't there a quote somewhere that Demandred was supposit to "watch" Rand?        Who knows all the whyfors of the Forsaken.