Uniteing The Two Towers

[Darth_Andrea]

I was wondering if anyone had a clue how the black and white towers would eventualy be consolidated. It has to happen or it will break out into a war over control of a sorts. With the black tower being controled by say Logain and the white by Egwene you would think that they would have different aims and plans and that they would eventualy but heads and bring about very bad things. Then again it's possiable that no one will be able to channel after TG who knows.

 

 

Thoughts...

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]       

[wvlr]

Well considering the Egwene had Logain prisoner and could have had him easily re-gentled or killed (to avoid complications) but instead arranged for him to get away and hinted that the DR was gathering men who could channel.

 

I don't think that Logain will jump to create conflict with her.    Same with her.    They may not be best of friends and may have to work out a few "kinks" but I don't see an all out war.    If channeling still exists (I think that it will) they will both find it easier to band together to hunt Dreadlords and BA that survive TG.

[Theandrin]

I just have a funny feeling that the tower that Elaida is trying to build, will eventually be finished and it will be the male half of the white tower.

 

I don't have any way of backing this, its just a hunch.

[Guest cw]

Well considering the Egwene had Logain prisoner and could have had him easily re-gentled or killed (to avoid complications) but instead arranged for him to get away and hinted that the DR was gathering men who could channel.

 

I don't think that Logain will jump to create conflict with her.    Same with her.    They may not be best of friends and may have to work out a few "kinks" but I don't see an all out war.    If channeling still exists (I think that it will) they will both find it easier to band together to hunt Dreadlords and BA that survive TG.

 

And forcibly Bonding Sisters isn't jumping at any chance to cause trouble?  If that isn't, then I don't know what is.

[algspkr]

I just have a funny feeling that the tower that Elaida is trying to build, will eventually be finished and it will be the male half of the white tower.

 

I don't have any way of backing this, its just a hunch.

I have had the same thought.  I have two pieces of "evidence" for it niether particularly supportive.

 

The strongest is Nicola saying the "Gaurdians shall balance the Servants." Evidence that both Towers will survive Tarmon'Gaidon. 

 

The second is all the poetic justice dished out by RJ in KoD including Galina trapped as Therava's pet.  A vast number of Shaido, especially the Wise Ones who recently took to practicing slavery becoming slaves to the Seanchan. I personally see Elida watching as the Asha'men finish and move into her tower as a similar fate.

 

I know my "evidence" is a joke but I like this theory, and after KoD it seems more likely than before.

[DemandredFO]

Cw, If I remember correctly Logain did that because he thought Rand ordered it and didn't he also kind of do it to protect them from Taim.  Maybe it's just my bias but I see Egwene causing more problems than Logain.  I see Logain causing problems too but not as many as Egwene.  They have to form some kind of union because the ancient symbol for Aes Sedai doesn't come from nowhere.

On the matter of channeling surviving TG, I believe it will.  Possibly it will even survive for a few more ages, I mean after TG we'll only be on four and there are seven.  My guess is as technology improves channelers will diminish in importance.  I am thinking though that Tarmon Gaidon will be the last major event where channeling is very important.  No proof, just a hunch.

[dyring]

Well considering the Egwene had Logain prisoner and could have had him easily re-gentled or killed (to avoid complications) but instead arranged for him to get away and hinted that the DR was gathering men who could channel.

 

I don't think that Logain will jump to create conflict with her.    Same with her.    They may not be best of friends and may have to work out a few "kinks" but I don't see an all out war.    If channeling still exists (I think that it will) they will both find it easier to band together to hunt Dreadlords and BA that survive TG.

 

And forcibly Bonding Sisters isn't jumping at any chance to cause trouble?  If that isn't, then I don't know what is.

 

Forcibly bond sisters that has cometo murder (executing without a trial, should be called murder tbh) him and everyone else in the black tower kinda does give them cause to act that even a few AS would haveto accept I´d say.

 

Besides, if they bring it up, one could always bring up the forced bonding by aes sedai and following (failed) attempt of compulsing theyr leader(rand) before that.

 

Tbh, don´t really think there is much room to complain about that ;)

[Guest cw]

Forcibly bonding Sisters that had already been defeated.  Neither Egwene nor Elaida are going to care what type of justification he argues he had.  The consider an Aes Sedai doing that to a normal man near to rape.  Imagine what they would make of an Asha'man doing it to an Aes Sedai.  Egwene will be pissed at Logain and all the Asha'man, but guess who she will blame for it?  Rand not Logain.  She will assume it was Rand's orders.  She already thinks Rand used Compulsion on the Sisters after Dumai's wells to make them bow and Logain just added this to the pile.

 

DemandredFO, he did that entirely on his own.  At that time, we know he has never met up with Rand.  The closest he has to knowing what Rand wishes is to ask Taim.  And the orders didn't come from Taim as Logain is told flat out that the M'hael won't be happy that he did it again.

[Tyrell]

I believe Logain did it to prevent Taim killing the sisters, but I havent read the books in a while.

[Guest cw]

Do you think a possible desire to protecte them from Taim will make any difference to Egwene?  She isn't going to care about the why, she is just going to see what was done.

 

The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.

 

Actually, there is nothing in the foretelling that requires the White and Black Tower to be united.  Only that they will balance each other.  It is just as likely they are heading for a Cold War type stand off where both sides know that acting means mutual anihilation.  Seeing how the future teeters on the edge of a blade, I actually see a standoff as more likely than a unification.

[dyring]

Tbh, Egwene don´t have much of a choice. She can be pissed about it, but she can´t really do anything, not with the last battle coming up. Even she will see that.

 

And that they see it as rape, Wel, they seem to say they see it that way, but practially, when it benefits them to ignore it, they do.

 

Alannas bonding of Rand is one example, but there are better ones.

 

Take the Salidar halls reaction when they are offered to bond Asha´man.

The words used by Jahar is "any soldier or dedicated cannot refuse"(taken from memory but pretty sure on thatone). Now, that obviously means tey don´t have a choice. But are even one of the sisters in some way abhorred by the fact that they will almost certainly bind them against theyr will? Nope...

 

Tbh, AS are very good at ignoring what is hard to deal with;)

 

 

 

[Guest cw]

The will turn a blind eye to many things.  Except when it is done to them.  They don't believe in fair play.  Egwene is already pissed at Rand over something he didn't do.  It isn't hard to believe that she will be looking for more crimes to add to his list.  She isn't interested in the truth.

[Paviel]

The consider an Aes Sedai doing that to a normal man near to rape.  Imagine what they would make of an Asha'man doing it to an Aes Sedai.  Egwene will be pissed at Logain and all the Asha'man, but guess who she will blame for it?  Rand not Logain.  She will assume it was Rand's orders.  She already thinks Rand used Compulsion on the Sisters after Dumai's wells to make them bow and Logain just added this to the pile.

 

It isn't exactly a secret that Rand is trying to make amends by offering her as many Asha'man to be bonded by the Aes Sedai.

 

Well, I doubt that it can remain a secret for long, Sealed to the Hall or not.

[algspkr]

The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade.

 

Actually, there is nothing in the foretelling that requires the White and Black Tower to be united.  Only that they will balance each other.  It is just as likely they are heading for a Cold War type stand off where both sides know that acting means mutual anihilation.  Seeing how the future teeters on the edge of a blade, I actually see a standoff as more likely than a unification.

I know my evidence is so thin that it might as well not exisist.

[Luckers]

Yeah I don't see reunification as being possible any time soon. There is too much history and distrust. An alliance is possible--even likely. But more?

 

[Ahaz Flagg]

Unless Egwene climbs off her high horse, there will be no chance for reunification at all, Egwene has become way to arrogant!!

[Guest cw]

Actually, she came down a peg or three in Knife of Dreams.  Enough so that I started to like her as a character again.

 

Neither side will be any more responsible for a standoff than the other.  The Asha'man are just as arrogant and stiff necked as the Aes Sedai.  The Aes Sedai will have a hard time accepting the fact that, after 3000 years, male channelers are now safe.  At the the same time Asha'man need to forget that the Aes Sedai spent the last 3000 years tracking down any man who could channel.  There is just too much history on either side for them to forget.

[Darth_Andrea]

I was thinking about all this last night after reading all the posts since my first. And the idea came to me of some kind of joint councle, nothing that has any real power over either group but allows each to inform the other of what their doing how their doing it and can, should the need arise, act as a place where one Tower can request the aid of the other. Or perhaps even give this councle simular standing to the Hall Of The Servants, give it authority over both groups but only in matters that effect both, and let other matters be handeled by the leader ship of each alone.

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]     

 

 

 

[wvlr]

Well in KoD Rand sent word to the Egwene (Rebals) that they could bind x number of Ash'amen as Warders UP TO the number that his Ash'amen had already bound.  ONLY up to an equal number!

 

 

Then at the end of KoD we see the Reds given permission by Taim to do the same.  The Rebals are obviously going to take all the can.    As will the Reds.    That will soon put them above Rand's allotment.    At that time you can bet that he will demand parity from Egwene and it will be very hard for her to refuse.

 

So by the time all this Flip-Flop is done, I think that the two groups will be so intermingled and the anti-male channelers fear will be so eradicated that essentially they will be effectively only one group.

 

That is why I like the idea of Elida's Tower becomming the male side of Tar Valon.

 

Will there be problems - sure.    The prophecy obviously does not show them merged immediately after TG, but I see the process as well started.

 

 

I also think that the way that Egwene treated Logain sets the groundwork for their mutual trust.    She already thinks that all AS would do well to get a dose of WO humility.    And Logain's Ash'amen are no where near as big headed as Taim's, so he seems to have learned a little humility from his genteling and has managed to impart that sonewhat to his group.

 

 

PS.  Taim obviously did his deed in an attempt to create a rif between them -  let the Lord of Chaos Rule - I think that it will backfire.

[algspkr]

Well in KoD Rand sent word to the Egwene (Rebals) that they could bind x number of Ash'amen as Warders UP TO the number that his Ash'amen had already bound.   ONLY up to an equal number!

 

 

Then at the end of KoD we see the Reds given permission by Taim to do the same.   The Rebals are obviously going to take all the can.    As will the Reds.    That will soon put them above Rand's allotment.    At that time you can bet that he will demand parity from Egwene and it will be very hard for her to refuse.

No she won't Egwene: "Rand, you must understand that they are Aes Sedai, and so are better then Asha'men; there can be no parity."

So by the time all this Flip-Flop is done, I think that the two groups will be so intermingled and the anti-male channelers fear will be so eradicated that essentially they will be effectively only one group.

 

That is why I like the idea of Elida's Tower becomming the male side of Tar Valon.

I do love this idea, though I would not be surprised if we don't see even a hint of it.

Will there be problems - sure.    The prophecy obviously does not show them merged immediately after TG, but I see the process as well started.

 

 

I also think that the way that Egwene treated Logain sets the groundwork for their mutual trust.    She already thinks that all AS would do well to get a dose of WO humility.    And Logain's Ash'amen are no where near as big headed as Taim's, so he seems to have learned a little humility from his genteling and has managed to impart that sonewhat to his group.

 

 

PS.  Taim obviously did his deed in an attempt to create a rif between them -  let the Lord of Chaos Rule - I think that it will backfire.

I believe that you are wrong with this last prediction, but time will tell.

[Caerlie]

Hurrah my first post in years and years. Ok, that was an exaggeration, two years.

Good question OP. I'm currently re-reading the series and was thinking of this very question a few days ago.

 

Obviously the whole theme of the series is a battle of power, between good and evil. Carrying that theme through the book we see other themes about the power balance; between men and women, nations, the understanding and tolerance of cultures etc.

We learnt early on that Aes Sedai assume the right to ultimate power and treat it as a 'God' given right, they can push people around like pawns to suit what their agenda. This is given even more weight by the fact that they base their own heirachy on how powerful a channeler each sister is. An intelligent sister with strength of moral conviction will have to submit before a strong yet silly sister, and of course, we also see the unfounded prejudice towards wilders.

Those things alone are enough to show that there are cracks in the heirachy of the Tower to pull it down as soon as there's a shift in power in the rest of the world.

What we now have is an interesting battle shaping up between Egwene and Elaida.

Egwene grew up with Rand, she's lived amongst the Aiel who give weight to more than just physical power. Her best friends know the A'than Miere and the Kin. She seems determined to make the Tower whole again and have all women who can channel connected to it , however her experience shows her that there is more to power than physical strength. Elaida is of a generation where Aes Sedai keep knowledge to themselves and exert their influence in the world with no expectation that their authority will be challenged.

 

So I guess what i'm hoping all this will build up to is the Tower hitting rock bottom, renewing itself and its place in the world. It has already been turned on its head. The Ajahs split, the Black revealed, Elayne has bonded a female warder and shares a bond with two other women, including shock, horror Min who can't channel. So I want to see male channelers being accepted as members of the 'channeling community' and heirachy being challenged. Although I love Egwene (especially Honey in the Tea in KoD), I also can't wait to see what happens when she comes face to face with Sorilea as Amyrilyn. I hope I get to see that happen.

 

[Paviel]

No she won't Egwene: "Rand, you must understand that they are Aes Sedai, and so are better then Asha'men; there can be no parity."

 

Even if Egwene refuses to allow parity between the Asha'man Warders and the Aes Sedai Warders, she certainly can't complain about ultimately getting twice as many of the former as she lost of the latter.

[aussie_ashaman123]

the black tower is there to stay, red breaking with tradition and bonding asha'man have made sure of that. there will be arguments, yes, but soon, the wonders they discover using both halves will erode that away

[wvlr]

Well since Asedi base their heirchy on power level and since most men are more powerful than women.  Shouldn't all those Reds start submitting to the men to be bonded if he is stronger?    FAT CHANCE - but by their heierarchy it should.

[aussie_ashaman123]

not for much longer, egwene wants to stop that practise, probably basing it more on accomplishments than anything