Moraine can still channel and will be able to when she is rescued.

[wvlr]

My point was that you cannot use that principle to only object to some assumptions.  You used it to object to Luckers argument, but it is just as valid against and and all of your arguments.

 

HUH?    My principle is to acknowledge that there is a lot (almost everything) that we do not know about the "agreement", about the Finn's AND about the situation that Moraine found herself in.

 

So you are saying that since we don't know a lot about these things that we can not acknowledge that we do not know a lot about these things?

 

Are you a Fox or a Snake by any chance?    Because I just am not able to comprehend your statement.    It is even making my head hurt - TRYING to understand it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe you are refering to my statement that:  "There are many possibilities out there that you sumarily dismiss - considering that these are not humans & we do not have a copy of the "agreement" I think this is a big mistake."

 

So are you saying that just because there are many possibilites out there - that we should summarily dismiss the many possibilities out there because there are many possibilities out there?

 

Because AGAIN I just am not able to comprehend your statement.    It is even making my head hurt MORE - TRYING to understand it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or are you refering to:

I would not go that far RAW.    Just simple acknowledgement of the fact that so much is not known about the contract and about the Finn that these assumptions MIGHT be way off.

 

 

So you are saying that when a lot is not known that we should not acknowledge that our assumptions might be off and therefore take those flimsy unfounded assumptions as fact?

 

 

Does anyone have some novacaine?     Because my head is KILLING ME!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As far as about Moraine being stilled/burned out - at least I can comprehend that and I do agree with that and would put it at about 99% probablity.

 

 

 

Edited to add:

 

Sorry RAW.    I am not trying to be antaganistic or unreasonable or anything.    I just think that there are lots of possibilities that are not being addressed.    I have presented several entirely reasonable possibilities such as these new ones:

 

1.  They could be required by the agreement to treat her good but in some way that has inadvertently "constrained" her until someone comes and shows her another way out.

 

2.  She could be ill (in Finn view) due to the stilling and they are meerly attending her to keep her alive.

 

3.  It might be some kind of physical requirement in that universe that she must exit the same way that she entered - unless someone escorts her out a different way.

 

 

But RAW I am not saying that these MUST be the case.    I am just saying that they are possibilities.    I am not even saying that they are the ONLY possibilities.    So your statement "You used it to object to Luckers argument, but it is just as valid against and and all of your arguments." is irrevelent.    When I provide a list of mutually exclusive alternatives then not all of them can be correct - so I am inhearently acknologing that all of them can not be correct.    I even went so far as stating that there were other possibilities that had not even been listed.

 

 

 

PS    You also never addressed the similarity to the Minniapolis bridge collapse.  By your and Luckers logic the Travelers that were on the bridge at the time that it collapsed, and lived, they should be held legaly accountable for the collapse.

[RobertAlexWillis]

HUH?    My principle is to acknowledge that there is a lot (almost everything) that we do not know about the "agreement", about the Finn's AND about the situation that Moraine found herself in.

 

But there are things that we DO know about it, and those things are enough to reach some conclusions.  The fact that the Aelfinn and Eelfinn have some alien characteristics does not mean that we don't know anything about them.

 

So you are saying that since we don't know a lot about these things that we can not acknowledge that we do not know a lot about these things?

 

No, I'm saying that pointing that out is ... pointless.  You don't need to know everything before reaching any conclusions, or we could never reach any conclusions about anything.

 

If I understand what you're saying, you object to people reaching certain conclusions about the treaty with the Eelfinn because they are creatures of an alien nature.  What I am saying is that, if their nature was SO alien that we couldn't reach those conclusions, then they would be SO alien that no treaty could have even been made with them.  So, even talking about them would be pointless.

 

That treaty is as much a human one as it is an Aelfinn/Eelfinn one.  The things that we do know about it are enough to reach the conclusions that we have reached, here.

[cloglord]

Whatever Moiraine's situation is, its one that she needs to be rescued from.  She knew that she would need rescue before she went in.  If she could still channel, she could work the Eelfinn with ease.

 

This assumes that the Eelfin are her adversaries.  A kitten might need rescuing from a tree, but it doesn't mean that the tree wishes it any ill will.  It could be that Moraine is trapped there by her inability to leave and not by the captivity of the finns.  In this scenario the use of the OP would only worsen her situation as it would still leave her trapped, but she would have also arroused the anger of the finns.

 

Its not like all the Eelfinn have a ter'angreal like Mat's.  Rand was scaring the piss out of the Aelfinn with just his flaming sword.

 

And the Eelfin apparently didn't break a sweat kicking Mat out of their world with a noose around his neck to die.  I would submit that the Eelfin are not entirely defensless.

 

I'm going on the assumption that the finns haven't killed Moraine because they want/need something from her.

 

 

[wvlr]

Whatever Moiraine's situation is, its one that she needs to be rescued from.  She knew that she would need rescue before she went in.  If she could still channel, she could work the Eelfinn with ease.  Its not like all the Eelfinn have a ter'angreal like Mat's.  Rand was scaring the piss out of the Aelfinn with just his flaming sword.  The fact that she needs to be rescued is both primary evidence that the Eelfinn's reaction to her was "negative", and secondary evidence that she has been stilled (if more were needed after Lan's reaction and Cyndane's channeling loss).

 

Yet more possibilities that I will present so they can be duely ignored:

 

1.  Lanfear is a average sized woman, Moraine is VERY pettite.  They went through the Tyrangle in a fighting jumble.    It could be that Moraine is not Stilled and that she mearly suffered from a broken leg or leggs.  No AS there to heal her and the Finn do not know how to deal with human anatomy so she is not healed correctly and can not walk.

 

2.  We know that there MIGHT have been Fire and a melt down of the Tyerangle on that side as well.    It it did occur, that could have severely injured Moraine.  She could be so severely burned that they could just barely keep her alive, much less let her leave.

 

[Luckers]

Wvlr, I did not address your list of issues because I agree with you--on certain issues there is room for doubt. My point in doing so was to show that even if we restrict ourselves to what we do know then we can rule out the Finns granting wishes for either Moiraine or Lanfear.

 

I think i was quite open with the fact that we can't absolutely know Moiraine was burned out--that argument i did in an entirely different style, and my major point was merely that whilst we do have unknowns involved, the burned out explanation fits neatly to all questions, whereas if she wasn't burned out then we have to have a lot of random seperate events occuring at once. It was an argument in the cumulative, and if you have any issues with the way I presented it please by all means bring it up.

 

But alright, lets look at your concerns. The core of your position seems based around the lack of knowledge precluding our ability to make any form of deductions about the Finns. Specifically you said this...

 

They are not human and do not react like humans so to try to use human logic to devine their non-human reactions is pointless.

 

Well, my first and somewhat esoteric response to that is... logic is not assumption or thinking, it is a form of deductive processing that we apply specifically when we do not know everything in order that we can get a grip on what we do know. It is designed specifically to enable us reason about something that we don't know about and couldn't predict by allowing us to quantify our knowledge of that issue.

 

In other words its specifically designed to deal with the alien--indeed, the first thing logicians study is God. It indeed was first really applied to thumb the nose at religions saying 'we don't know this' 'we can't know this' by saying 'well we do know this, and this, so we can deduce this'.

 

Which was what I was trying to say to you in my response. An argument in the negative does not preclude positive deductions. We don't know all those things you mentioned--well we do some of them, but meh--but nevertheless we can still state certain realities as a logical certainty, like the reality that Moiraine and Lanfear were not granted wishes.

 

But lets take a look at your specific issues.

 

1.  Your statement above still ignores My list of issues above, especially these:  If it burned up and created light and fire would the Finns blame both Asedi or just the one that was of Shadow?  -  We just do not know.    Was Lanfear held captive because of the Ter'angle or because she was of Shadow?  -  We just do not know.

 

Certainly we don't. Suggestively given the state of the device as a mode of transportation, and because we have witnessed fire pass through it we can state it as a logical probability, but not an absolute, no.

 

2.  We still do not know what the contract says.  Do you have any proof that the contract does not say something like:    "If the Tr'eangle stops functioning that they are to treat any ASs in their lands & not of Shadow like a queen and kiss thier feet daily for 5 years."    No you do not!    That is all I am saying - we can not be sure what emergency provisions might have been put in the agreement.  My provision above is silly - yes, but no sillier than assuming that the AoL AS did not put any emergency provisions in the agreement.

 

I don't see how that is relevant--we know what the Finns reaction was, they arrested the two women. Our knowing the exact wording of the treaty is subsequently unimportant to making deductions about what they did, because they did it.

 

IIRC the "agreement" was somewhat forced upon the Finns by AoL AS that did not like the treatment visitors were getting in Finnland.  Since it was somewhat forced upon the Finns, the AoL AS could have written it any way that they wanted.

 

You don't recall correctly. We have no knowledge about the origins of the Agreement.

 

3.  Blaming Moiraine and Lanfear for the destruction of the Ter'angle is not a certianty.  Were the unlucky auto travelers in Minniapolis blamed for the bridge collapse?    Hey they destroyed a valuable means of commerce to both sides of the river.    I am sure that merchants on both sides of the river were not happy!    No, the travelers were the victims!

 

Were the unlucky auto travelers channeling viciously in a way that caused the bridge to explode?

 

We have direct evidence that the Finns did indeed hold both women responsible. Both women were held captive by the Finns.

 

4.  This is only one of three known "Bridges".    Since they know the AS still have at LEAST two other ways to get to Finnland to "Kick their Snake/Fox Butts" if they do not treat a stranded AS traveler correctly per the "agreement" - the Finns have every incinative to do so.    Not only that - AS created the "bridges" so they have every incinative to treat a stranded AS correctly in hopes of getting the "bridge" replaced.

 

Now who's being suppositious? Aes Sedai have been killed, or contained or driven mad in the past when they asked questions about the Shadow. The Finn seemingly don't feel much concern about an Aes Sedai invasion. Furthermore the Agreement has nothing to do with the relations between humans and the Finn--its specific to the trading agreement in place.

 

Quote from: Luckers on January 19, 2008, 02:57:48 PM

we're not predicting them, we know their reaction was negative.

 

We know that their reaction was negative to Lanfear only.    Moiraine could just as easily be a captive of their "good treatment" in their hopes of getting a new AS manufactured "Bridge" ter'angle back.    or as a hostage for such.    There are many possibilities out there that you sumarily dismiss - considering that these are not humans & we do not have a copy of the "agreement" I think this is a big mistake.

 

... "I have seen you try, and die, one two and all three. I have seen myself die in the attempt. I have seen us all live and die as captives."

 

It's pretty clear.

 

 

 

[cloglord]

We have direct evidence that the Finns did indeed hold both women responsible. Both women were held captive by the Finns.

 

We do not have direct evidence that the finns held both women responsible, we have direct evidence that Lanfear was "held" by the finns, but no direct evidence that Moraine was held in the same fashion.  We have circumstantial evidence that Moraine was held, and even less evidence that she was held because the finns held her culpable.  Since we know that neither Lanfear nor Moraine were immeadiately killed, it suggests to me that they were allowed to live for some reason.  If as you suppose, the finns were upset about having their doorway broken, the most likely reason for detention and subsequent killing would be that they put Lanfear on trial and then killed her.  Considering that they did not kill Moraine, suggests a difference in treatment, which I would guess would stem from a difference in culpability.

 

Aes Sedai have been killed, or contained or driven mad in the past when they asked questions about the Shadow. The Finn seemingly don't feel much concern about an Aes Sedai invasion.

 

And yet people still think that the fact that Moraine is still trapped is proof that she is stilled.  The finns are obviously not without defenses of their own, and the fact that Moarine has not escaped suproses me not at all.  For those who point out that the finns were scared of Rand's fire sword, I would also point out, that if their option was to be scared or kill their savior, I don't think it would be a hard choice.  I suspect that the average Aes Sedai throwing around fireballs would not put them in the same sort of quandry.

 

... "I have seen you try, and die, one two and all three. I have seen myself die in the attempt. I have seen us all live and die as captives."

 

It's pretty clear.

 

These are all outcomes that could arise from Thom/Mat/Noal's attempt to steal something, (namely Moraine,) from them.  If someone broke into my house, and tried to steal my TV, I might feel obliged to defend it and myself.  If the robbers decided to put up a fight, things could very well get messy.  My TV might get broken.  The robbers could get hurt, they could die.  They could even be imprisoned.  None of which would happen at all if the robbers never decided to break in in the first place.  Does that mean that I am holding my TV against  its will, and that I have reacted negatively to it by not allowing it to roam free through the neighborhood?

 

I have one big problem with the assertion that Moraine was not given an oppurtunity to act under the agreement, and that is that Lanfear and Moraine were not treated equally.  Both were detained in some fashion, but only Lanfear died.  The only way that I can see Moraine surviving months without food, and surviving whatever it was that killed Lanfear is to suppose that the finns treated the two women differently.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

This assumes that the Eelfin are her adversaries.

 

Why would they be anything else?  Talk about unsupported assumptions ...

 

We know that they are touchy and dangerous ... they wear human skin, for pete's sake.  Birgitte may have emphasized the danger to Perrin, but she didn't just make it up.

 

In this scenario the use of the OP would only worsen her situation as it would still leave her trapped, but she would have also arroused the anger of the finns.

 

The primary evidence for her inability to channel is in the person of one al'Lan Mandragoran.

 

And the Eelfin apparently didn't break a sweat kicking Mat out of their world with a noose around his neck to die.  I would submit that the Eelfin are not entirely defensless.

 

Are you seriously comparing the abilities of Mat, before getting any of his cool stuff, to Moiraine?

 

I'm going on the assumption that the finns haven't killed Moraine because they want/need something from her.

 

Like what, for example?  She doesn't have anything.

 

Lanfear is a average sized woman, Moraine is VERY pettite.  They went through the Tyrangle in a fighting jumble.    It could be that Moraine is not Stilled and that she mearly suffered from a broken leg or leggs.  No AS there to heal her and the Finn do not know how to deal with human anatomy so she is not healed correctly and can not walk.

 

Again, her lack of ability to leave on her own is only secondary evidence.  The primary evidence is Lan.

 

And, in a year, she would have healed or died.  Your implication that the Eelfinn would love to help, but just don't know how is entirely unsupported by anything in any of what we have seen or heard about them.

 

We know that there MIGHT have been Fire and a melt down of the Tyerangle on that side as well.    It it did occur, that could have severely injured Moraine.  She could be so severely burned that they could just barely keep her alive, much less let her leave.

 

Again, her lack of ability to leave on her own is only secondary evidence.  The primary evidence is Lan.

 

And, in a year, she would have healed or died.  Your implication that the Eelfinn would love to help, but just don't know how is entirely unsupported by anything in any of what we have seen or heard about them.

 

I know I just repeated myself, but the answer was exactly the same, so ... -shrug-

 

Considering that they did not kill Moraine, suggests a difference in treatment, which I would guess would stem from a difference in culpability.

 

Lanfear is one of the Forsaken.  Maybe the punishment for breaking the door down is imprisonment, and the punishment for trying to help the Dark One take over reality is death.  The fact that they were treated differently does not mean that they did not hold Moiraine culpable.  It means that Lanfear was guilty of more than merely breaking the door down.  The finn's aren't really nice people, but they do hate the Shadow ...

 

And yet people still think that the fact that Moraine is still trapped is proof that she is stilled.

 

Secondary proof.  Supporting evidence.  If I just say "Lan" a whole lot, would that work?

 

The only way that I can see Moraine surviving months without food, and surviving whatever it was that killed Lanfear is to suppose that the finns treated the two women differently.

 

Of course they did.  One was a vandal.  The other was conspiring to overthrow reality.  The Eelfinn have had dealings with Aes Sedai, they would know that Moiraine can't lie to them, and Moiraine could say that she knew for certain that this woman is Lanfear.  Moreover, the Eelfinn may have a way to detect the Forsaken mark, or at least, Lanfear's connection to the Shadow.

 

And where do you get the idea that Moiraine is surviving "without food"?  People do feed prisoners.

[Ashaman Kovan]

How does everyone keep ignoring the fact that Lan said she was dead...We know she's not dead so obviously the only other way for the band to break was for her to be stilled. And the whole "Bond breaking because of the portals between worlds being destroyed" theory obviously does not work. Thats only one portal that was destroyed, one doorway to get there. Obviously there is at least one more sure fire way to get there or else how are Mat and Co. supposed to rescue her. If she could channel she would have freed herself by now. I highly doubt every Eelfinn is walking around with OP negating Ter'Angreal around there necks or on their persons. Besides it's really moot at this stage because we know she will be rescued and pay close attention here folks stilling can be healed. And if an Asha'man isn't handy enough to heal her then Nynaeve or some other women who knows the weave will have to do it. Yes she'll be weaker in the one power but I doubt that her strength will play a pivotal role in TG.

[cheyjade]

Has anyone thought that in an alternate reality like 'Finnland', one may not need food or water?

 

Moiraine may have died and been reborn like Lanfear was into Cyndane (who would put her into the new body? would there BE a new body? Maybe she's waiting for a new one, and Noal will give up his..). Or Lanfear, in a state of remorse, performed CPR on her to bring her back. Either case, she dies and the bond breaks.

 

Maybe one must exit by the door one entered through? Leaving through another door would have drastic consequences. Or the Finns think it would, and won't let Moiraine leave, for her own safety.

 

Maybe the Finns weren't holding Moiraine and Lanfear for anything more than the price of the door they broke. They could have been scrubbing pots to work off the debt they owed. Lanfear had a dream from the Dark One, who told her to commit suicide and she'd be reborn in the real world, thus escaping. Now, Moiraine has to work off the rest of the debt by herself, so she's being held for longer.

 

Maybe they both died upon entry, and the Finns brought them back to make them pay off the broken door. Lanfear refused, so they killed her off again (explains that she was 'held', but not for long). Moiraine agreed to work it off, so she's still being held. The Finns may or may not have put them into new bodies when they did this, maybe that's where 'Cyndane's' body came from, and Moiraine is now in a new body.

 

Sucks for her, but morally, she can't bring herself to run away. She knows that she's needed on the outside, and that someone can pay off the rest of her debt for her. Maybe Mat can trade the Medallion back to the Finns for Moiraine..or maybe one of the young Finn girls took a fancy to him on a previous visit and will let him 'work' off Moiraine's debt in a single night..

 

~~~

 

Personally, I have no idea what's gonna transpire in the next book, the above are just random thoughts I don't really agree with. I've read all the threads that go over possibilities, and still don't have a clue. 

[cloglord]

How does everyone keep ignoring the fact that Lan said she was dead...We know she's not dead so obviously the only other way for the band to break was for her to be stilled. And the whole "Bond breaking because of the portals between worlds being destroyed" theory obviously does not work.

 

The reason it isn't being adressed is because its already....been....adressed.

 

Quote

This assumes that the Eelfin are her adversaries.

 

Why would they be anything else?  Talk about unsupported assumptions ...

 

First of all I was not assuming that they weren't her adversaries, so I was not making an "unsupported assumption," I was asking for support for the assumption that they were adversaries.  There are obviously situations between randlanders and the finns that aren't overtly adversarial (Sp?) as evidenced by the fact that a treaty had existed and operated over a period of time.

 

We know that they are touchy and dangerous ... they wear human skin, for pete's sake.  Birgitte may have emphasized the danger to Perrin, but she didn't just make it up.

 

Lions are touchy and dangerous, doesn't mean thay are my adversaries.  I'd say that there are plenty of zoo keepers who have worked out perfectly reasonable

working arrangements with them too.

 

The primary evidence for her inability to channel is in the person of one al'Lan Mandragoran.

 

A point that I am not arguing.  I am pointing out however that the secondary evidence that Moraine has not escaped does not point to her stilling.  Personally, I believe she got the crap stilled out of her, but that doesn't mean that she absolutely could have escaped had she retained her OP ability.

 

Are you seriously comparing the abilities of Mat, before getting any of his cool stuff, to Moiraine?

 

Yes, I seriously am!  The way that things played out for mat was that he was instantaneously dropped out of finnland with a noose around his neck.  So how exactly does an non-stilled, (or a stilled for that matter) Moraine protect herself from that?  Why didn't any of the Aes Sedai who went to ask questions about the shadow, just channel their way free instead of going mad or dying?  The answer is that the finns are not so easily pushed around by a little channeling.

 

Like what, for example?  She doesn't have anything.

 

Presumably the finns agreed to the bargain, becasue they got something from it, be it memories, emotions, whatever.  With the destruction of the doorway Moraine becomes that much more valuable, because presumably she is the last person who will ever make that deal with them again.  She is the last potential paying customer as it were.

 

Lanfear is one of the Forsaken.  Maybe the punishment for breaking the door down is imprisonment, and the punishment for trying to help the Dark One take over reality is death.  The fact that they were treated differently does not mean that they did not hold Moiraine culpable.  It means that Lanfear was guilty of more than merely breaking the door down.  The finn's aren't really nice people, but they do hate the Shadow ...

 

Certainly this is a viable explaination.  My point is that if both explainations are viable that removes the certainty from Lucker's position that Moraine was not offered a deal.  I'm not saying that she was, only that it is not as certain as Lucker's would suggest.

 

Secondary proof.  Supporting evidence.  If I just say "Lan" a whole lot, would that work?

 

Again, I don't disagree with the assesment that Moraine was stilled, and I don't disagree that Lan' POV is excellent proof of this.  I agreee. I disagree that the supporting evidence supports this idea.

 

Of course they did.  One was a vandal.  The other was conspiring to overthrow reality.  The Eelfinn have had dealings with Aes Sedai, they would know that Moiraine can't lie to them, and Moiraine could say that she knew for certain that this woman is Lanfear.  Moreover, the Eelfinn may have a way to detect the Forsaken mark, or at least, Lanfear's connection to the Shadow.

 

I have no doubt that the finns had means to uncover the identity of Lanfear.  What doesn't make sense to me is that if the finns care so much about the war between the light and the shadow to punish her for her crimes by death, then why didn't they treat Moraine better?  From that POV Moraine was simply attempting to perform a citizen's arrest, and Lanfear caused the door's destruction while resisting.  That wouldn't make Moraine a vandal it would make her a hero, grievously injured (IE her stilling) while attempting to subdue a dangerous interdimensional terrorist.

 

And where do you get the idea that Moiraine is surviving "without food"?  People do feed prisoners.

 

There are actually two points here, but admittedly they were points in my head.  One, it reflects the story about the finns giving food with no nourishment, and negates the idea that Lanfear died from starvation while held captive.  Secondly it takes the idea of Moraine being trapped in finnland but eluding capture off the table, as she would presumably have a hard time foraging for food.

 

edited to clarify some poor grammar, (I'm sure I left some :) ) and for typos.

[Luckers]

We do not have direct evidence that the finns held both women responsible, we have direct evidence that Lanfear was "held" by the finns, but no direct evidence that Moraine was held in the same fashion.  We have circumstantial evidence that Moraine was held, and even less evidence that she was held because the finns held her culpable.  Since we know that neither Lanfear nor Moraine were immeadiately killed, it suggests to me that they were allowed to live for some reason.  If as you suppose, the finns were upset about having their doorway broken, the most likely reason for detention and subsequent killing would be that they put Lanfear on trial and then killed her.  Considering that they did not kill Moraine, suggests a difference in treatment, which I would guess would stem from a difference in culpability.

 

circumstantial evidence... im sorry mate, I'm not following you. Moiraine is pretty clear about it all.

 

And yet people still think that the fact that Moraine is still trapped is proof that she is stilled.  The finns are obviously not without defenses of their own, and the fact that Moarine has not escaped suproses me not at all.  For those who point out that the finns were scared of Rand's fire sword, I would also point out, that if their option was to be scared or kill their savior, I don't think it would be a hard choice.  I suspect that the average Aes Sedai throwing around fireballs would not put them in the same sort of quandry.

 

Fair enough. But then i mistated myself originally. Aes Sedai have been driven mad and returned, or killed--as far as we know. Never contained as a prisoner--and yes, i know i used that word originally. I humbly retract. As for the rest... its completely unsupported. They acted scared of Rand only because he was their saviour and they didn't want to kill him?

 

I have one big problem with the assertion that Moraine was not given an oppurtunity to act under the agreement, and that is that Lanfear and Moraine were not treated equally.  Both were detained in some fashion, but only Lanfear died.  The only way that I can see Moraine surviving months without food, and surviving whatever it was that killed Lanfear is to suppose that the finns treated the two women differently.

 

And only Lanfear had a way of coming back from the dead. Similarily only Moiraine had knowledge of what would occur in the future.

 

We don't know how Lanfear died. We only know that both were held captive. And even if they did execute Lanfear--which i could buy given their discomfort with the Shadow--it doesn't suggest anything about their intentions to give Moiraine three wishes. Lanfear may have ended up worse, but Moiraine was nontheless held captive.

 

 

[BKVMC]

im going to  go waaay out on a limb here and say  that  maybe moiraine DID in fact  die  and was  brought back by the finns,  maybe this  knowledge is the  thing  moiraine will bring to rand when she escapes. (I cant remember  specifically  what  Mins vision of moiraines  future was only that  she  thinks to herself  that hers was the only vision  that proved false.) the More likely  theory is that  she was stilled  but i  like my version better .

[RobertAlexWillis]

And yet people still think that the fact that Moraine is still trapped is proof that she is stilled.

 

Not by itself.  Only as secondary, or supporting evidence.

 

However, having read your objections, you've got a point.  And, in support of your objections, even if she could smoke the Eelfinn, she would have the problem of how to get back out into our world.  From what we've seen, navigating in 'finn-land would be very, very difficult.  The very rules of physical geometry are not the same.  Finding either the Tower of Ghenjei or the Aelfinn door would likely prove very difficult ... there's no guarantee that the Eelfinn door opened near either one.

 

So, you have demonstrated that the secondary, supporting evidence is not very good at all.  But, the original conclusion still remains completely valid, based on the primary evidence ... and you agree with that, so ... I'm not sure what your point was, except to split hairs.

 

So, on to an exercise in splitting hairs which don't change the overall conclusion:

 

Lions are touchy and dangerous, doesn't mean thay are my adversaries.  I'd say that there are plenty of zoo keepers who have worked out perfectly reasonable

working arrangements with them too.

 

Lions aren't intelligent creatures who wear human skin.  Very bad analogy.

 

The way that things played out for mat was that he was instantaneously dropped out of finnland with a noose around his neck.  So how exactly does an non-stilled, (or a stilled for that matter) Moraine protect herself from that?  Why didn't any of the Aes Sedai who went to ask questions about the shadow, just channel their way free instead of going mad or dying?  The answer is that the finns are not so easily pushed around by a little channeling.

 

In a straight fight, Moiraine has lots of options Mat didn't have, and she was entering in a situation where she had much more reason to expect to have to fight ... she broke the door on the way in. 

 

What happened to Mat wasn't instantaneous.  He had a few moments, and realized what was happening, but had no way to react effectively.  Channeling is as quick as thought, and Moiraine's defensive instincts are well-honed. 

 

The Aes Sedai who went in to ask questions were probably not holding the Power at the time, and probably weren't nearly as effective, or even as strong in the Power, as Moiraine Aes Sedai.  I'm not saying that just any channeler could kick the Eelfinn's butts.  I'm saying that I think Moiraine could do it, if she could channel.  Moiraine is far, far more effective than 99 percent of the Aes Sedai we've seen, and certainly has a great deal more battle experience.

 

All of which amounts to this:  No, Moiraine is not bulletproof.  But her chances in that situation are way, way higher than Mat's were.

 

What doesn't make sense to me is that if the finns care so much about the war between the light and the shadow to punish her for her crimes by death, then why didn't they treat Moraine better?  From that POV Moraine was simply attempting to perform a citizen's arrest, and Lanfear caused the door's destruction while resisting.  That wouldn't make Moraine a vandal it would make her a hero, grievously injured (IE her stilling) while attempting to subdue a dangerous interdimensional terrorist.

 

Again, you're assuming a general benevolence on the part of the Eelfinn.  Everything we know of them points to them being savage (not in the sense of "uncivilized or barbaric", but in the sense of "vicious or merciless") tricksters, eager to take any advantage they can, with often fatal results.  Just because they don't hate Moiraine as much as they do the Shadow doesn't mean they're going to be nice to her by default ... we have reason to believe they won't.  Mat obeyed the treaty, and got hung for his trouble.  Moiraine was involved, however benign her intentions, with the destruction of a valuable asset.  I truly don't understand why you think the Eelfinn would just shrug that off.  What indication of any benevolent attitude on their part have you seen?

 

One, it reflects the story about the finns giving food with no nourishment, and negates the idea that Lanfear died from starvation while held captive.

 

... where was the story about the finns giving food with no nourishment?  I honestly don't remember that one ...

 

But, given the allegorical nature of basically every story about the finns, it would probably reflect more the idea of cheating than anything about actual food and water.  Of course, I'd have to read it to be sure ...

 

Secondly it takes the idea of Moraine being trapped in finnland but eluding capture off the table, as she would presumably have a hard time foraging for food.

 

Well, of course thats true.  Since we know that she is held captive, however, I simply didn't consider that to be connected with what we're talking about.

[cloglord]

So, you have demonstrated that the secondary, supporting evidence is not very good at all.

 

The purpose of which was to cast doubt on the idea that we absolutely know how the finns will react to Moraine.  We don't know that she was captured based on the fact that she could escape if she hadn't been stilled, similarly we don't know that she was captured and held culpable.  Sure, its possible that she was, amybe even likely, but we are a long way from certain.

 

Lions aren't intelligent creatures who wear human skin.  Very bad analogy.

 

I think it is an excellent analogy.  Not only are lions touchy and dangerous, they are not evil, but so foriegn to us that they might as well be evil.  That is unless we are zookeepers trained to interact and deal with them.  You might even say, (and in this case you did,) that "Everything we know of them points to them being savage (not in the sense of "uncivilized or barbaric", but in the sense of "vicious or merciless") tricksters, eager to take any advantage they can, with often fatal results."  Sounds like a lion to me.

 

ust because they don't hate Moiraine as much as they do the Shadow doesn't mean they're going to be nice to her by default ... we have reason to believe they won't.

 

Just because they hate the fact that their doorway got broken doesn't mean that they will treat the two women the same by default ... in fact we have evidence that suggests that they didn't.

 

Moiraine was involved, however benign her intentions, with the destruction of a valuable asset.  I truly don't understand why you think the Eelfinn would just shrug that off.  What indication of any benevolent attitude on their part have you seen?

 

The indication you are looking for is in the chapter where Mat goes into the doorframe.  He offers to leave without bargaining, and the finn gets all crazy to get him to the bargain.  Their addicts, they want their part of the bargin very badly, and it is for that reason that they could/would shrug off any culpability that would cling to Moraine.

 

... where was the story about the finns giving food with no nourishment?  I honestly don't remember that one ...

 

Its one of the Bili under the hill references, but I don't have the time this morning to look it up...

 

 

 

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

You might even say, (and in this case you did,) that "Everything we know of them points to them being savage (not in the sense of "uncivilized or barbaric", but in the sense of "vicious or merciless") tricksters, eager to take any advantage they can, with often fatal results."  Sounds like a lion to me.

 

Lions are not "vicious and merciless",  or "eager to take advantage".  They are animals that hunt for food.  The only time lions bother humans is when they feel threatened or are starving.

 

Just because they hate the fact that their doorway got broken doesn't mean that they will treat the two women the same by default ... in fact we have evidence that suggests that they didn't.

 

Again, the difference in treatment is explained by the difference in the women.  Lanfear was more than merely the woman who broke the door.  We have evidence that they were treated differently ... thats far from evidence that they were nice to Moiraine.

 

The indication you are looking for is in the chapter where Mat goes into the doorframe.  He offers to leave without bargaining, and the finn gets all crazy to get him to the bargain.  Their addicts, they want their part of the bargin very badly, and it is for that reason that they could/would shrug off any culpability that would cling to Moraine.

 

Thats not evidence that the finns are benevolent.  Thats evidence that Mat hadn't broken any rules, so he was still protected by the treaty.  Since he was protected, they really wanted to make a deal with him, because that was their chance to take advantage.  Which they did.

 

Moiraine's entrance was under vastly different circumstances.  The destruction of the doorway meant all bets were off ... they could do what they wanted, unbound by the treaty.

 

Are you really contending that Moiraine is not being held against her will by the Eelfinn?  Why else would she need to be rescued?  Even if she can't channel, surely the Eelfinn could let her go, if they wanted to.  They don't have problems navigating the Tower of Ghenjei.  Why would she need Mat, Thom, and Noal to come in after her, if they were not holding her prisoner?

[Cybertrolloc]

The way that things played out for mat was that he was instantaneously dropped out of finnland with a noose around his neck.

Not the case, see KoD when Mat is thinking about the Eels. We've been over this too many times in the Asmodean thread of despair and bloody-mindedness for you to have forgotten about it ;)

 

I think you have a point, but Luckers and RAW have also said that they're not stating fact in where their views of Mo in Eelfinnland coincide.

 

...and that’s why the third graders at PS139 are Morbo's "Vermin Of The Week"

[cloglord]

Lions are not "vicious and merciless",

 

Tell that to the gazelle... Aesop aside, when was the last time you heard about a  lion letting its prey go...

 

or "eager to take advantage".

Which is why they never go for the old or sick first...

 

  They are animals that hunt for food.  The only time lions bother humans is when they feel threatened or are starving.

 

Or when some human wanders into their territory, looking stupid and defensless...

 

Again, the difference in treatment is explained by the difference in the women.

 

Yes, the difference can be explained that way, or it can be explained my way, which means that Lucker's doesn't get to claim that Moraine certainly didn't get her three requests.

 

Thats not evidence that the finns are benevolent.  Thats evidence that Mat hadn't broken any rules, so he was still protected by the treaty.

 

No, the fact that they didn't kill him and skin him out of hand is proof that he was protected by the treaty, the fact that they seemed eager for him to remain is proof that they desperately wanted something from him. 

 

Moiraine's entrance was under vastly different circumstances.  The destruction of the doorway meant all bets were off ... they could do what they wanted, unbound by the treaty.

 

Says you.

 

Are you really contending that Moiraine is not being held against her will by the Eelfinn?

 

No, the finns are nearly certainly holding her prisoner.  My theory is that she dealt with the finns in much the same manner as Mat, and within the terms of her bargain she managed to keep the finns from killing her outright.  In fact I think she did the opposite of Mat in that she was probably "wise" to ask for her life, but unwise to do so without asking for "leavetaking."

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK