Moraine can still channel and will be able to when she is rescued.

[aevogt]

How would Moraine be able to survive any time at all as a captive to an unfriendly, non-human, moderately evil (according to Birgitte) race with a penchant for really supple leather?  My answer is that she probably wouldn’t unless she was able to channel.

 

To me, this casts a bit of doubt on the assumption that she and Lanfear both were severed.

 

I acknowledge that Lanfear was almost certainly burnt out.  Moraine claws the angreal away from her as they go through the redstone doorway.  Lanfear was drawing every shred of the Power through that angreal and to lose contact with it like that would certainly have burned her out.  That is likely the reason Moraine put it there in the first place, as she herself indicates she did. 

 

Here’s what I have a problem with.

 

I would assume that two women, Moraine and Lanfear, unable to channel and therefore more or less defenseless, who are trapped in Finnland would wind up as someone’s studded kilt accessory fairly quickly.  Moraine probably had her belt knife but I can’t see that doing much good against the foxes as it was steel, not iron.  The Snakes didn’t appear too bothered by Mat’s knives when they tossed him out bodily of the Door under the Stone.  (Thought it is possible that the iron in the steel was what made the Snakes answer more than three questions {total of 6} and that could be a little hole in this theory)  However, if she is stilled and somehow holding them off with the iron in her dagger for a year, what’s she doing for food to survive and why don’t the Foxes or Snakes kill her the first time she falls asleep out of exhaustion.

 

We know it’s possible to pass through a doorway holding the Power (which Moraine was when she and Lanfear went through) since that is exactly what Rand was doing when he exited the door in the Great Holding in Tear.  His sword was wrought from fire and he does that using the One Power.  It is possible for someone to be stilled or burnt out by channeling too close to certain Ter‘angreal, of which the wagon held many.  I think, however, for that effect to have severed Moraine, any man or woman in the vicinity would have been severed and therefore, Rand, Egwene, Aviendha and several wise ones would have gotten it as well.  We know they are all fine.

 

There is always the possibility that when Moraine made contact with Lanfear, she started to draw more of the power through the angreal as well but since it appears that it went through with them and since there is no indication that she lost contact with it, she should have been fine.

 

Therefore, I think that if Moraine is alive (which is certain based on her letter to Thom and a fact that I am not disputing), she has not been severed.  She has the ability to protect herself but since there are only two ways out of Finland, the Door and the Tower, and the only one she can use has been destroyed, she must await rescue.

 

 

[Ashaman Kovan]

Then how do you explain Lan feeling the bond break? That could only happen if she was killed or severed. Either way when she does get rescued either Nynaeve will heal her or else Flinn will. Hopefully Flinn will.

[aevogt]

Actually, I'm glad you asked that question as I neglected to address it.

 

I attribute that to the destruction of the ter angreal.  Since it created a link to that particular world, dimension, reality, whatever you want to call it, the destruction of that portal snapped the link to Lan's bond as well. 

 

 

[Darth_Andrea]

Actually The explination of the bond breaking is kinda simple the connection between the 2 worlds was broken cutting the bond off as if she had died. I know about the tower but it's not a active door way. Their you have to make the door open where as with the twisted door way it has a constiant connection just needing you to step into it.

 

 

 

[glow=green,1,500]Darth_Andrea[/glow]

[Guest leebarr]

I know he will not but maybe Mat will change his mind and leave her where she is

[TurboZ]

Didn't Mat leave ALL of his knives before he went to Rhuidean? I thought the Wise Ones said that he had to go totally unarmed.

[Artfully_Unintelligent]

the only possible way for the bond to break was for her to die or get severed. She did not die, hence, she was severed. If she could channel, do you really think she would let some snake people capture her? no, F that, she would have escaped. she cant channel, but she will be able to once flinn gets to her. I hope its flinn, the women he healed went back to full strength, where as with nyneave they were less then half strength.

[aevogt]

the only possible way for the bond to break was for her to die or get severed. She did not die, hence, she was severed.

 

What are you basing this on?  The point I'm trying to make that, you're ignoring, is that the events that caused Lanfear to be severed would not have done the same to Moraine.  Yes, her bond to Lan was broken but it was broken because the doorframe was destroyed, leaving Moraine in an alternate reality.

 

Lan says "She's gone"  "I cannot feel her presence"  Not "She's dead" or "She's stilled"  if he could even have been able to sense a difference.

 

Just because she can channel, as I think, doesn't mean she can escape from Finnland, only that the Finns can't kill her before she's rescued.

 

It begs the question, how is she alive if she was severed.

 

And for TurboZ.  You're correct, Mat did leave all his knives before he entered Rhuidean but not before he entered the doorframe in the Stone of Tear.

[Vidarr]

My theory on this is that she made a bargain with the foxes. we know that they are required to grant three boons according to the agreement. Since she knew that she was going to end up falling through the door in the first place she probably knew what to do to keep them from killing her till help could come for her.

[Cybertrolloc]

Lanfear was "held" by both Finn types according to her thoughts at the Cleansing. Moiraine's letter says that one of the among the many possibilities, they can all wind up captive and die in Finnland (however it doesn't say that she is currently a prisoner).

 

Time in Finland may move differently (slower), but I wonder how a renegade Moiraine would say eat or sleep for whatever is the equivalent of a year in Randland time. And whether the deus ex machina they gave Mat is unique ;)

 

Also note that Birgitte said the Finn weren't evil, just strange to human sensibilities to a degree they might as well be.

[Aiemond]

I think that Moraine is severed. Last time she went in a doorway Lan could sense her, yet this time he can't? The problem with blaming the doorway melting for the broken connection is that this is not the only way to get to finnland. First, we have the doorway in tear. Just because Moraine used it does not mean the connection between the worlds is not there still. And we know that both the finn types live in the same world. So, one connection is still there. On the tower of Genji, we don't know if the connection is always there or not. Just because the doorway to the tower is not there does not mean the connection to finnland is not as well. So I think Moraine is severed.

 

How she survived I don't know. Maybe they are holding her prisoner (most likely). I don't think she had her three wishes. Coming in the way she did may have violated the precepts. Lanfear prolly died since she is very much tied to the shadow. Moraine's punishment may be that she is just held prisoner until they decide what to do with her.

[Luckers]

We have to remember though that the argument Moiraine was severed is suggested a couple of different pieces of evidence--which is significant because it establishes a certain degree of simplicity is answering the question. Let me see if I can show you.

 

The first (and flimsiest) piece of evidence is in the nature of the event itself. Moiraine and Lanfear fell through a ter'angreal that subsequently destroyed itself into a world with vastly different physical laws, whilst they were channeling at each other. The simple reality is that they would almost have to have been severed or RJ is a giant prat.

 

Secondly we have the severing of the bond with Lan. Now yes, aevogt, it is possible that the snapping of the connection of the ter'angreal might have caused that (I'll expand on why I think thats unlikely in a moment) but as things stand we have only seen two things actually cause that. Being severed, and dying. Moiraine didn't die.

 

Thirdly, Lanfear was severed in the same process (and im not ignoring your comment aevogt... I'll come to it in a moment).

 

Fourthly, by the phrasing of Moiraine's letter, and Cyndane's comment of being 'held', we know the Finns contained both in some manner. Now Moiraine had an angreal in her posession, and we know the power works on the Finns. So the question becomes, how did they contain her? Kill her, maybe. But contain an active unshielded channeler? It seems implausible (again, coming to your comment in a moment).

 

Ultimately the cumulative state of these points suggests one answer. Moiraine was somehow contained after falling through a ter'angreal that subsequently blew up--a process that severed the other woman with her--and in the same instant her bond to Lan snapped, again a phenomnon only witnessed when an Aes Sedai is severed.

 

Now, it is true that there are other suggestions, but the cumulative argument holds incredible weight. Suggesting the Moiraine was not severed requires multiple different answers to the same phenomena... and answers that are mostly supposition at that. But lets take a look at them...

 

One, the angreal issue.

 

I acknowledge that Lanfear was almost certainly burnt out.  Moraine claws the angreal away from her as they go through the redstone doorway.  Lanfear was drawing every shred of the Power through that angreal and to lose contact with it like that would certainly have burned her out.  That is likely the reason Moraine put it there in the first place, as she herself indicates she did. 

 

As I understand it, you are suggesting that Lanfear was ultimately burned out because the angreal she was losing was clawed away from her while she was using all the strength it offered as they fell, and that, in some way, meant that Lanfear was more exposed to damage from the ter'angreal exploding.

 

It's plausible, but there are some issues. Firstly, why should the absense of the angreal influence the interaction of the Power with the ter'angreal? Moiraine was also drawing on the source, and RJ himself stated that part of the severity of the explosion was caused by Lanfear and Moiraine suddenly finding themselves channeling in the finn world which, in his words, 'has vastly different physical laws'.

 

I don't nessasarily see what sort of added instability loosing the angreal would have caused... or why we should look at that in the exclusion of other events such as the translocation and the explosion of a ter'angreal--both of which effect Moiraine.

 

The second issue is the issue of the Finns killing Moiraine etc.

 

I would assume that two women, Moraine and Lanfear, unable to channel and therefore more or less defenseless, who are trapped in Finnland would wind up as someone’s studded kilt accessory fairly quickly.  Moraine probably had her belt knife but I can’t see that doing much good against the foxes as it was steel, not iron.  The Snakes didn’t appear too bothered by Mat’s knives when they tossed him out bodily of the Door under the Stone.  (Thought it is possible that the iron in the steel was what made the Snakes answer more than three questions {total of 6} and that could be a little hole in this theory)  However, if she is stilled and somehow holding them off with the iron in her dagger for a year, what’s she doing for food to survive and why don’t the Foxes or Snakes kill her the first time she falls asleep out of exhaustion.

 

Well, for starters, you seem to be assuming that there was an immediate fight to the death. Has it not occured to you that she, like Lanfear, wasn't immediately arrested? We know Lanfear was held for some time before her death--she herself relates this. So why not Moiraine? Indeed, this reality fits the wording of her letter much more closely than her using the power to hold off the finns.

 

Indeed, i honestly cannot see how the Finns could possibly contain an active channeler of Moiraine's strenght and ingenuity--nor how they could co-exist in a state of confrontation--which Moiraine's letter makes clear is the case--for that sort of time with an active channeler. They'd have killed her by now to keep themselves safe--without being able to control her, they simply wouldn't allow her to remain at large.

 

I think, however, for that effect to have severed Moraine, any man or woman in the vicinity would have been severed and therefore, Rand, Egwene, Aviendha and several wise ones would have gotten it as well.  We know they are all fine.

 

Moiraine and Lanfear were the only channelers nearby whose weaves actively interacted with the ter'angeal when it was destroyed--and in no way does every channeler in the vicinity get severed when an a ter'angreal burns out an individual. The burning out has to do with misusing the ter'angreal, and the result is thus absolutly subjective to a) the ter'angreal and b) the way in which it was misused. Furthermore we have never heard a single account of nearby channelers getting burned out when an Aes Sedai has misused a ter'angreal. We heard of one incident when a ter'angreal destroyed itself and every sister nearby was knocked out and couldn't channel for a week, but nothing at all like what you suggest.

 

Now, as to Lan's bond being severed. You said this.

 

Actually, I'm glad you asked that question as I neglected to address it.

 

I attribute that to the destruction of the ter angreal.  Since it created a link to that particular world, dimension, reality, whatever you want to call it, the destruction of that portal snapped the link to Lan's bond as well. 

 

 

 

Now, there are several issues with this. Firstly, the link between the worlds is established by the Tower of Ghenjii, so there is still an active link between the two realms. Secondly, RJ has stated that the realm of the finns is indeed a parallel world--not perpindicular, not alien, parallel, and we have seen Aes Sedai (Verin) travel through portal stones which leaves no open passageway back without it severing her bond to Tomas. But beyond all that, there is absolutely no evidence at all that dimensional distance interferes with the bond. Indeed, by all accounts it would seem that it very much does not. We have seen Moiraine travel dimensionally without Lan, we have seen dreamwalkers exist in Tar and still maintain the bond... there is just nothing suggesting it.

 

Ultimately of course we can't no for sure, but your way requires much to much mental wriggling and guesswork--much less downright supposition. The evidence, suggestive though it may be, fits more with severing--something we know to actually cause this. Did that make any sense?

 

 

 

My theory on this is that she made a bargain with the foxes. we know that they are required to grant three boons according to the agreement. Since she knew that she was going to end up falling through the door in the first place she probably knew what to do to keep them from killing her till help could come for her.

 

This is one of the few things that we can discount completely. Moiraine and Lanfear created fire when they arrived, thus breaking the agreement. Any requirements the agreement has on the Finns are thus made void--and besides, all sovreign entities have the right to withdraw from trade agreements if they other side is not acting fairly. Moiraine and Lanfear had just destroyed something the Finns reguarded as highly valuable, and these people are not fairies from myth magically bound to serve humanity, they are traders, offering a service in exchange for something they value--you don't trade with someone who just kicked down your door.

 

No, there were no wishes granted here.

[wvlr]

 

This is one of the few things that we can discount completely. Moiraine and Lanfear created fire when they arrived, thus breaking the agreement. Any requirements the agreement has on the Finns are thus made void--and besides, all sovreign entities have the right to withdraw from trade agreements if they other side is not acting fairly. Moiraine and Lanfear had just destroyed something the Finns reguarded as highly valuable, and these people are not fairies from myth magically bound to serve humanity, they are traders, offering a service in exchange for something they value--you don't trade with someone who just kicked down your door.

 

No, there were no wishes granted here.

 

Actually, no we can not say that because none of us has seen a copy of the contract/agreement.    Without knowing what provisions were written into such a thing we have no way to say either what the Finns would have done or what the Finns could have done within the framework of that contract/agreement.

 

Edited to add:

 

In addition we have no way yet to determine what happened to the other (Finn) Te'rangle.    Did it burn up and melt? - We just do not know.    Did it look normal but just go dead?  -  Again we just do not know.    Did it create Light or Fire on their side?  - We just do not know.    If it burned up and created light and fire would the Finns blame both Asedi or just the one that was of Shadow?  -  We just do not know.    Was Lanfear held captive because of the Ter'angle or because she was of Shadow?  -  We just do not know. 

 

End of Edit.

 

Above and beyond that - to ignore the contract/agreement and to try to deciper their probable reactions based on potential human reactions under similar conditions is clearly not feasable because it ignores Brigitte's comment "Finn weren't evil, just strange to human sensibilities to a degree they might as well be." 

 

They are not human and do not react like humans so to try to use human logic to devine their non-human reactions is pointless.

[Luckers]

I'm sorry, but you can argue in the negative all you like and it doesn't alter the realities. Lanfear and Moiraine destroyed a valuable source of trade for the Finns, which we do indeed know the Finns were displeased about since they held both women prisoner. Arguing that they arn't human so we can't predict them is irrelevent--we're not predicting them, we know their reaction was negative. So I'm sorry, but yes I do believe we can absolutely rule out any chance of Moiraine or Lanfear being granted any sorts of services.

 

 

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Actually, no we can not say that because none of us has seen a copy of the contract/agreement.    Without knowing what provisions were written into such a thing we have no way to say either what the Finns would have done or what the Finns could have done within the framework of that contract/agreement.

 

We still know some things about it, without having a copy of the text.  For example, we know that it was established to facilitate an exchange between people in the "real" world and the 'finn-land.  Moiraine and Mat have both spoken or thought about what they got in return, various forms of experience-sharing. That exchange is dependent on the connection between those worlds.  Which brings us to our next point:

 

In addition we have no way yet to determine what happened to the other (Finn) Te'rangle.    Did it burn up and melt? - We just do not know.    Did it look normal but just go dead?  -  Again we just do not know.    Did it create Light or Fire on their side?  - We just do not know.    If it burned up and created light and fire would the Finns blame both Asedi or just the one that was of Shadow?  -  We just do not know.    Was Lanfear held captive because of the Ter'angle or because she was of Shadow?  -  We just do not know.

 

We do know one thing for sure.  It no longer serves as a connection to our world.  So no matter what visual or pyrotechnic effects there may or may not have been on the Randland side, the door is still broken, even in 'finn-land.  Since the exercise of the terms of the treaty which we do know about requires that connection, it is entirely reasonable to assume that destroying the connection violates the treaty.

 

Above and beyond that - to ignore the contract/agreement and to try to deciper their probable reactions based on potential human reactions under similar conditions is clearly not feasable because it ignores Brigitte's comment "Finn weren't evil, just strange to human sensibilities to a degree they might as well be."

 

They are not human and do not react like humans so to try to use human logic to devine their non-human reactions is pointless.

 

Then none of us can draw any conclusions whatsoever about anything regarding them.  ::)

 

Or, maybe, we can look at the things that we do know have actually occurred.  They made a treaty with humans.  It is apparently important to them, from their reaction when Mat wanted to leave.  Their motivations may not be human, but functionally, there is a certain similarity, otherwise no trade would be able to take place at all.

 

Birgitte's comment was made with a purpose.  She wanted to stress the danger to Perrin.  So, its not a completely unbiased assessment.  They can be dealt with ... its risky, but it can work.  So, there is some form of common frame of reference.  If there wasn't, they wouldn't even be able to understand the concept of language, much less use it to communicate.

 

But hey ... we'll all see, won't we?  Thankfully, this is one question thats basically certain to be answered ...

[icspots]

I acknowledge that Lanfear was almost certainly burnt out.  Moraine claws the angreal away from her as they go through the redstone doorway.  Lanfear was drawing every shred of the Power through that angreal and to lose contact with it like that would certainly have burned her out. 

 

Question about this.  Have we confirmed that it is necessary to touch an angreal in order to channel through it.  I know people have operated Ter'angreal without touching them (the rings for the accepted test, the access keys for the Choedan Kal, Aviendha with the "library" Ter'angreal, etc.)  Also we know that Rand was starting to embrace Saidin through the male Choeden Kal during TGH and he was way up at the top of that pit, so it works with Sa'angreal.  Then there are the multiple times that people channel through an angreal which is clipped to part of their clothing (a broach, ornament, etc.)  Yes it's on their person, but they're not really touching it. 

 

So bearing that in mind can we say that pulling an angreal away from a person who is channeling lots of the power through it would cause them to be burned out.  As another point there was the confrontation between Rand and Asmo. at the end of TSR.  They're both channeling through the male access key (granted it's a Ter'angreal, but the point holds) when Rand punches Asmo.  Asmo falls back and loses his connection with the key and therefore loses the power he was channeling through the Choedan Kal.  I don't think he loses the connection because he's not touching it, but more out of shock from being hit and it disorienting him.  Anyway he was channeling massive amounts of power when he lost it, way more than Lanfear with the bracelet angreal, and he wasn't burnt out.

 

I personally think the burning out came either as the result of another aspect of the fight between Moiraine and Lanfear, from such close proximity to a Ter'angreal that was melting down, or as a punishment of some sort from the Finns.  I don't hold too much for the second one because we know that the female access key Nynaeve used broke/melted and she wasn't burnt out.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Question about this.  Have we confirmed that it is necessary to touch an angreal in order to channel through it.

 

Actually, we've confirmed that it is not necessary.  Close proximity is required, but you don't have to be touching it.  Rand confirms this with the little fat man angreal, and Elayne and Aviendha both draw through the amber turtle without while it is simply pinned to their clothing.  What Moiraine was probably doing was struggling with Lanfear for control of the angreal, like Rand and Asmodean did with the Choedan Kal access key in Rhuidean (as you pointed out).

 

Tactically, Moiraine would know that Lanfear would probably struggle to keep holding on to the Power, making her vulnerable to being burnt out when the ter'angreal melted (which Moiraine knew would happen).

 

Actually, Moiraine knew that she was going to be burnt out, because she knew that Lan would think that she was dead (as she says in her letter to Thom ... "everyone" would think she is dead).  Simply being in another world is not enough to break the Warder bond ... as Luckers has eloquently pointed out.  Verin went through the Portal Stone worlds, Moiraine went to the finn's world when she was in Tear, and none of those things broke the bond.  The only two things that break the bond forcibly are death and severing.

[cloglord]

This is one of the few things that we can discount completely. Moiraine and Lanfear created fire when they arrived, thus breaking the agreement. Any requirements the agreement has on the Finns are thus made void--and besides, all sovreign entities have the right to withdraw from trade agreements if they other side is not acting fairly. Moiraine and Lanfear had just destroyed something the Finns reguarded as highly valuable, and these people are not fairies from myth magically bound to serve humanity, they are traders, offering a service in exchange for something they value--you don't trade with someone who just kicked down your door.

 

No, there were no wishes granted here.

 

This assumes that the finns placed equal blame on both Moraine and Lanfear.  Certainly they would be upset at the breaking of their link, in what ever fashion it occured, but the fact that Lanfear died and Moraine lived suggests some difference in theit treatment.  If, for instance, the finns held both women and put them on trial, it could be found that Lanfear was the guilty party, and sentenced to die.  This seems to be a pretty easy thing for the finns to asceratin as they appear to have to ability to see the timeline for a  thead.  This would explain Lanfear's captivity and her subsequent death.  If Moraine was found innocent, then the finss would have a very powerful motivation to make a deal with Moraine, because they would know that Moraine would be their last chance to do so. 

[Ashaman Kovan]

I don't know if anyone said this but the whole "Portal being destroyed thus breaking the bond" theory I don't think works. Simply because thats only one portal. Obviously theres more than one or else Mat and Co. wouldn't be able to get there to rescue her.

[Pevin]

I could be way off base here, but I always thought that Moiraine passed her bond off purposefully when she went through the doorway.  She knew that she was going to be in a situation where Lan could not help her and she wanted Nynaeve to have him.

 

Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that Accepted who were found to have bonded a warder were forced to pass them off to an Aes Sedai?  That's what gave me the idea that Moiraine relinquished the bond in some way. 

[Mr Ares]

I could be way off base here, but I always thought that Moiraine passed her bond off purposefully when she went through the doorway.  She knew that she was going to be in a situation where Lan could not help her and she wanted Nynaeve to have him.

 

Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that Accepted who were found to have bonded a warder were forced to pass them off to an Aes Sedai?  That's what gave me the idea that Moiraine relinquished the bond in some way.

Doesn't fit the evidence. If Moiraine got rid of the bond, then Lan wouldn't be suffering from the effects of the bond snapping those are only caused by death and stilling so far as we know. Secondly, she had already set up the bond to pass to Myrelle upon her death, but she didn't have time to dissolve her own bond to him during the fight with Lanfear. Check this:

Week 13 Question: Is the White Tower currently aware of any way to completely dissolve/undo the bond between an Aes Sedai and her Warder so that the link no longer exists and all the positive and negative effects of the bond are removed?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes, they are. It is called releasing a Warder, and an Aes Sedai who is very old or injured so badly that she knows she is going to die will, if she has the strength, release him so he doesn't suffer from her death. This does require the two of them to be together, and a little more time that laying on the bond. If they are physically apart, or she doesn't have enough time or strength remaining, touch on him.

 

http://wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152

 

Also, Nynaeve wasn't Aes Sedai at the time, and so if she had had a Warder, he would have been taken off her, so Moiraine wouldn't have given Lan to her - that's why she had Myrelle.

[aevogt]

The question that hasn't been answered, or if it was I missed it, is why the destruction of the doorframe ter angreal would have severed either of them in the first place.

[wvlr]

I'm sorry, but you can argue in the negative all you like and it doesn't alter the realities. Lanfear and Moiraine destroyed a valuable source of trade for the Finns, which we do indeed know the Finns were displeased about since they held both women prisoner. Arguing that they arn't human so we can't predict them is irrelevent--we're not predicting them, we know their reaction was negative. So I'm sorry, but yes I do believe we can absolutely rule out any chance of Moiraine or Lanfear being granted any sorts of services.

 

Luckers & all others.    Don't get me wrong - I think that you are probably be correct in end - I am just playing Devils Advocate because I do not like all these "absolutes" that you are using.    When we have no proof that they are absolutes.

 

1.  Your statement above still ignores My list of issues above, especially these:  If it burned up and created light and fire would the Finns blame both Asedi or just the one that was of Shadow?  -  We just do not know.    Was Lanfear held captive because of the Ter'angle or because she was of Shadow?  -  We just do not know.

 

2.  We still do not know what the contract says.  Do you have any proof that the contract does not say something like:    "If the Tr'eangle stops functioning that they are to treat any ASs in their lands & not of Shadow like a queen and kiss thier feet daily for 5 years."    No you do not!    That is all I am saying - we can not be sure what emergency provisions might have been put in the agreement.  My provision above is silly - yes, but no sillier than assuming that the AoL AS did not put any emergency provisions in the agreement.

 

IIRC the "agreement" was somewhat forced upon the Finns by AoL AS that did not like the treatment visitors were getting in Finnland.  Since it was somewhat forced upon the Finns, the AoL AS could have written it any way that they wanted.

 

3.  Blaming Moiraine and Lanfear for the destruction of the Ter'angle is not a certianty.  Were the unlucky auto travelers in Minniapolis blamed for the bridge collapse?    Hey they destroyed a valuable means of commerce to both sides of the river.    I am sure that merchants on both sides of the river were not happy!    No, the travelers were the victims!

 

4.  This is only one of three known "Bridges".    Since they know the AS still have at LEAST two other ways to get to Finnland to "Kick their Snake/Fox Butts" if they do not treat a stranded AS traveler correctly per the "agreement" - the Finns have every incinative to do so.    Not only that - AS created the "bridges" so they have every incinative to treat a stranded AS correctly in hopes of getting the "bridge" replaced.

 

 

we're not predicting them, we know their reaction was negative.

 

We know that their reaction was negative to Lanfear only.    Moiraine could just as easily be a captive of their "good treatment" in their hopes of getting a new AS manufactured "Bridge" ter'angle back.    or as a hostage for such.    There are many possibilities out there that you sumarily dismiss - considering that these are not humans & we do not have a copy of the "agreement" I think this is a big mistake.

 

 

 

 

 

Then none of us can draw any conclusions whatsoever about anything regarding them.   ::)

 

I would not go that far RAW.    Just simple acknowledgement of the fact that so much is not known about the contract and about the Finn that these assumptions MIGHT be way off.

 

Not likely, but still a very significant possibility.

[Cabriana]

One thing occurs to me while reading the reponses to the original posts is this: We are taking the word of Aes Sedai that a bond can only be broken if through stilling or death. How many of us thought that stilling couldn't be healed based on the word of the Aes Sedai.

 

They didn't lie or deceive anyone. They said what they thought to be true, until Ny and Flinn came along. So, to the best of the knowledge of the Aes Sedai, severing only occurs through stilling or death. They may end up finding out that they were wrong on that as well.

[RobertAlexWillis]

We know that their reaction was negative to Lanfear only.    Moiraine could just as easily be a captive of their "good treatment" in their hopes of getting a new AS manufactured "Bridge" ter'angle back.    or as a hostage for such.    There are many possibilities out there that you sumarily dismiss - considering that these are not humans & we do not have a copy of the "agreement" I think this is a big mistake.

 

Whatever Moiraine's situation is, its one that she needs to be rescued from.  She knew that she would need rescue before she went in.  If she could still channel, she could work the Eelfinn with ease.  Its not like all the Eelfinn have a ter'angreal like Mat's.  Rand was scaring the piss out of the Aelfinn with just his flaming sword.  The fact that she needs to be rescued is both primary evidence that the Eelfinn's reaction to her was "negative", and secondary evidence that she has been stilled (if more were needed after Lan's reaction and Cyndane's channeling loss).

 

I would not go that far RAW.    Just simple acknowledgement of the fact that so much is not known about the contract and about the Finn that these assumptions MIGHT be way off.

 

My point was that you cannot use that principle to only object to some assumptions.  You used it to object to Luckers argument, but it is just as valid against and and all of your arguments.