Rand the Pitiful... why? *spoilers*

[druidravi]

"Pitiful" hardly .. he has taken out Asmodean ,Ishmael out manauvered Rahvin and Sammeul , cleaned the taint ,set up the black tower , took out the forsaken left and right , conquered huge swatches of territory has probably has every damn army in the world following him , the Aiel their wise woman , the borderlands army(most probably) , Andor , Illian ,Tear  ,Myanvae, Logains's part of Ashaman , Mat and his red band , Perrin and his wolves, the sea-folk , Nynavae , Cadsuane ,rest of super girls maybe even the kin . He is planning for a cease-fire with the Seanchen and we do know how strong they are .

 

He will have most of the Aes-sedai with him as well for I think Elaida will be deposed and Egwene made the Amrylin Seat .

 

Also no forsaken can stand up to him 1 on 1 as he has that Callonder and Sangreal .

 

Also Rand doesn't need to destroy the dark one. He's not going to have a one on one with him . His part is to restrict the dark one and probably seal him again for the next age. As long as there is the creator there will be the dark one.

 

My point is simple what could have he done better. He has done almost everything possible with all the situations he faced. He's hard as steel now hardly the man who wanted to wield callondar to test whether he really was the dragom or feared for his own sanity

 

     

[stoper]

Quote:

 

No, my friend, Cadsuane isn't as much as in Charge as her followers(Reign, Samitsu thinks).

 

Very true...

Maybe she's not, but it looks that way.

Imagine yourself on Darlin's place.

First, you see Cadsuane and Rand at the rebels camp near Cairhien, when he shoot some white fire from his hand then she... BANG slapped his face:

C: "you will not do that again, not ever".

R: "yes ma'am" (ok, he didn't say that, but he act that way)

Second time, you see Rand with Cadsuane in Tear, he try to act like a dragon reborn while she count to him "one, two..." made him looks like some weak-minded idiot. At "three" she hit his bottom and actually force him to accept the rebels demands.

Man, this is a real dragon.

 

"Pitiful" hardly .. he has taken out Asmodean...

He capture Asmodean because Lanfear allow him to do it.

...out manauvered Rahvin and Sammeul

Actually they both out manauvered him. Rahvin put him in to some mind trap, but Nynaeve save his ass. Moridin save him in Shadar Logoth and told him how to defeat Sammael.

...set up the black tower...

And now one Darkfriend control it, with his own army of channelers.

...conquered huge swatches of territory has probably has every damn army in the world following him , the Aiel their wise woman , the borderlands army(most probably) , Andor , Illian ,Tear...

And I'm sure DO will have his own big army too. We talk about Rand, not the army.

...He is planning for a cease-fire with the Seanchen and we do know how strong they are...

Or maybe they'll put one a'dam on him and made him one nice obedient dog (according to their prophecies, he must kneel befor them).

Also no forsaken can stand up to him 1 on 1 as he has that Callonder and Sangreal .

This didn't made him less pitiful. If you have a gun I'm sure none blademaster can oppose you.

[aevogt]

Rand had beaten Asmodean "like a dog and not as much as he deserved" before Lanfear showed up.  She said so herself.

 

If he's made mistakes and taken missteps, (using Callandor against the seanchan for example) he's still just a kid.

 

He's gaining a gang he will one day be able to trust, and, more importantly, believe he can trust, and one of those people is Cadsuane.  He may be able to trust Nyneave, but she's not taking any active steps toward the last battle.  Cadsuane is.  A lot of people don't like her character because she doesn't care whether or not he survives, which is only practical.

 

Part of his journey as the Fisher is to suffer.  His destiny is to bleed.  Read your Malory, I'm certain R.J. did.

 

 

 

 

[Baldar]

Bah, Rand is pretty weak and far too paranoid.

 

Although, it wouldn't have been good if *I* were in his place. After getting free from the attempted kidnapping I would have taken the male Choedan Kal and ripped the White Tower up by the roots, literally. No, I wouldn't have crushed it, but I would have laid it on it's side and let them think about that for a while.

[aevogt]

A little paranoia never killed anyone.  Especially when they are out to get you.  ;-)>

 

 

[DuDZiK]

I think it's one of the more interesting aspects of the series, how Rand is slowly breaking down both physically and mentally. I think that he will be saved mentally, by Cadsuane and by Min, Elayne, and Aviendha or at least I hope so...

[Ko´bal]

I think that the quote that stoper put on here in the beginning has some truth to it. Especially the part of Rand becomming blind. I can´t remember which book but Moridin is playing a game with himself where you´re supposed to get the king fisher first and then start. There he looks at the fisher which is blind an has lost one handHe thinks it over and come to a conclusion that it could have a special meaning from another age, but that the meaning has been lost. RJ´s meaning as I interpret i that Rand is the King Fisher.

 

How he´s going to act in the final battle I do not know, but it seems that he will be blind...  :'(

[krelianzg]

Rand as the Fisher King is a theme that is very strongly implied in the last few books.

 

The Fisher King comes from Arthurian legends. He is grievously wounded and his kingdom's health is dependent on his own health (Rand tied to the land). His wound is made by various things in different legends, most often the Lance of Longinus, but in some it's a poisonous sword that creates the unhealing wound. Sound familiar?

 

Here's some more detailed info;

 

http://www.uidaho.edu/student_orgs/arthurian_legend/grail/fisher/

 

There are a lot of parallels, including the hallows of the Grail procession - the broken sword and spear being the most obvious.

 

There's also the parallels between the Fisher King's wound and Christ's. When Longinus spilled Christ's blood, it was said to heal him. Blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul healing the world, anyone?

 

Galahad is said to be the one to heal the Fisher King in many iterations of the legend - perhaps Galad will somehow be involved in making Rand whole again? It's a stretch, but RJ very clearly wanted the Fisher King analogy to be made, so who knows.

 

[stoper]

Rand had beaten Asmodean "like a dog and not as much as he deserved" before Lanfear showed up.  She said so herself.

Because Lanfear told him that Asmodean is on his way to Rhuidean. Otherways the beaten one woud be Rand.

[krelianzg]

You know, if Rand had been so much as 30 seconds later than he was, Asmodean would have succesfully gotten his hands on the male access key all by himself.

 

That's gotta be ta'veren luck right there, the implications of that would have been staggering.

 

Of course, Asmodean would probably use the Choedan Kal to build a 500' tall harp or something, but the look on the other Forsakens' faces upon realizing Asmodean just became the most powerful man in the world would be priceless.

[DuDZiK]

Rand as the Fisher King is a theme that is very strongly implied in the last few books.

 

The Fisher King comes from Arthurian legends. He is grievously wounded and his kingdom's health is dependent on his own health (Rand tied to the land). His wound is made by various things in different legends, most often the Lance of Longinus, but in some it's a poisonous sword that creates the unhealing wound. Sound familiar?

 

That's actually a common Celtic motif, the idea that the land responds to the sovereign in power. If there is a rightful sovereign on the throne of the land, then the weather will be fine, there will be no drought and plentiful harvests, and the scenery will be green and beautiful. But if there is a bad on unjust sovereign there will be drought and harsh weather, and even the trees will grow crooked from the taint.

 

Of course the Arthurian myth originated from the Celts in the first place, so I'm really just building on what you said  ;)

[druidravi]

Quote:

 

 

 

"Pitiful" hardly .. he has taken out Asmodean...

He capture Asmodean because Lanfear allow him to do it.

 

That was an old Rand and still it was impressive that he at that time was equal in power to a forsaken

...out manauvered Rahvin and Sammeul

Actually they both out manauvered him. Rahvin put him in to some mind trap, but Nynaeve save his ass. Moridin save him in Shadar Logoth and told him how to defeat Sammael.

 

The forskaken planned to make Rand go after Sammauel where they would take him combined . But he out-manavuvered them . In both the situations he was invading their strong-holds where they had placed many traps and had the advantage of defending in known terrain . Rand had help but what do you expect he takes out everyone by himself??.

...set up the black tower...

And now one Darkfriend control it, with his own army of channelers.

 

So what what organization doesn't have dark friends. He had gained several important allies from the black tower Logain , Flinn and several others . Also remember that Logain is in control of one of the faction and it is being implied in prophecy that he would take out Taim and his faction.

 

...conquered huge swatches of territory has probably has every damn army in the world following him , the Aiel their wise woman , the borderlands army(most probably) , Andor , Illian ,Tear...

And I'm sure DO will have his own big army too. We talk about Rand, not the army.

 

But that's what he accomplished . Before he started moving forsaken were controlling almost every damn kingdom directly or by proxy . He has removed them form their power and has prepared those armies to fight on his side in TG

 

 

...He is planning for a cease-fire with the Seanchen and we do know how strong they are...

 

Or maybe they'll put one a'dam on him and made him one nice obedient dog (according to their prophecies, he must kneel befor them).

 

Even if he has to make a deal with them TG would be of more importance than the short-term concessions he has to give them . He does say it doesn't matter what deal he has to make with the Seanchen as long as they have a ceasefire and fight along with him in TG . He expects to die in TG and believes any agreement he would have made will end with him.

 

 

Also no forsaken can stand up to him 1 on 1 as he has that Callonder and Sangreal .

This didn't made him less pitiful. If you have a gun I'm sure none blademaster can oppose you.

 

But he did make sure most of the important Sangreal ended with his side . What do you want him to do charge forward on his own all the forskaken and the dark-one?? . He is not the creator . He is very powerful but not invincible and more of his power comes from powerful allies , and strategic placements . It's like in Revenge of the Sith when Obi-wan takes the high ground . It would have been very boring if the WOT epic had no strategic elements .

 

 

We have to remember the Rand from book one when he did not anything about one-power , most of kingdoms controlled by Forsaken , has no allies and if known he was the dragon would have been killed by the white cloaks , many Aes-sedai , Forsaken , Slayer , Fain and so on.

 

Do remember that the Forsaken were from the Age of legends where they were nearly as powerful as Lewis Therin. They were existing from thousands of year  .Rand didn't even know how to channel then .And there were 13 of them then

 

    Now he is the strongest person in one power in the whole randland . He is not invincible , even though he is the dragon re-born and an extremely powerful Tavern he is but one thread in the weave . He cannot win TG without many other powerful threads like Mat , Perrin , Moraine(as in the prophecy) , the super girls etc.

 

TG is not about Rand going headlong and beating all the Dark one forces and Dark one by himself.

[stoper]

Now he is the strongest person in one power in the whole randland...

No, he's not. Maybe he can channel more power than the others but that's not all. We saw this when Semirhage attacked him and he couldn't react fast enough.

 

I'm not saying he didn't made anything useful, I'm saying he's pitiful at the moment.

He gets sick when he tries to grab the Source. With one hand no more bows, spears, swords, etc... for him. Problems with his vision, maybe blindness soon. And one old witch kicked his ass whenever she wants.

That's pathetic.

[Thunderbomb]

Defintly alot of the Fisher King similarities in Rand, already lost a hand and is partially blind (sees everything as it is underwater) plus acts alot of the same way.

[druidravi]

Now he is the strongest person in one power in the whole randland...

No, he's not. Maybe he can channel more power than the others but that's not all. We saw this when Semirhage attacked him and he couldn't react fast enough.

 

 

It doesn't count it was a sneak attack. If it was an open direct confrentation he would have easily defeated her though he might not because she is a women.

[DuDZiK]

Now he is the strongest person in one power in the whole randland...

No, he's not. Maybe he can channel more power than the others but that's not all. We saw this when Semirhage attacked him and he couldn't react fast enough.

 

 

It doesn't count it was a sneak attack. If it was an open direct confrentation he would have easily defeated her though he might not because she is a women.

 

Oh? What about in Path of Daggers, that Illianer that was loyal to 'Lord Brend' tried to kill him with an arrow. Rand saw it soon enough but was too dizzy to kill him before he fired the arrow.

 

Sensing a pattern? Same thing happened with Semirhage. It was not a sneak attack; they had forewarning that they might be attacked by someone or some people who could channel thanks to Cadsuane and Nynaeve's ter'angreal. But Rand can't embrace the source anymore without being dizzy and sick, and now if he's caught by surprise and tries to embrace it quickly he is actually physically incapacitated for a moment; i.e., when Elanye, Aviendha and Min surprised him in Nynaeve's room just before they ran off to cleanse the male Power.

 

That does not bode well; if he is unable to react quickly to a surprise attack. I mean what's he going to do if he gets caught by one such surprise? "No fair! Surprise attacks are against the rules, didn't you read the memo? I'm too sick to deal with any surprises!"  ::)

 

If he can't handle every kind of attack, he can't be considered the most powerful and could be considered pathetic.

[Vambram]

I suppose then that you are forgetting about awesome display of saidin and new weaves that Rand al`Thor did through the LTT personality with the "deathgates" and "arrows of fire" along plus 20,000 trollocs that were killed then. Did Rand kill all of that attacking trolloc army? Nope, but that chapter in KoD shows clearly to me that Rand killed a majority of that attack.

 

I am not down playing the weakenesses Rand is suffering. However, I am extremely confident that because he is so vitally and extremely important to the Wheel and the Pattern, that when TG is being fought, and when Rand will REALLY need to be the one carrying the fight straight into the pit of hell against the D.O. etc, etc, etc, ... that Rand will strong enough, quick enough, and skilled enough to do what he has been fated and prophecised to do.

[DuDZiK]

I suppose then that you are forgetting about awesome display of saidin and new weaves that Rand al`Thor did through the LTT personality with the "deathgates" and "arrows of fire" along plus 20,000 trollocs that were killed then. Did Rand kill all of that attacking trolloc army? Nope, but that chapter in KoD shows clearly to me that Rand killed a majority of that attack.

 

I am not down playing the weakenesses Rand is suffering. However, I am extremely confident that because he is so vitally and extremely important to the Wheel and the Pattern, that when TG is being fought, and when Rand will REALLY need to be the one carrying the fight straight into the pit of hell against the D.O. etc, etc, etc, ... that Rand will strong enough, quick enough, and skilled enough to do what he has been fated and prophecised to do.

 

Ah, but that was not Rand Al'Thor was it? Lews Therin was in complete control and performed all those weaves, and Rand was merely an observer.

 

I agree that in the end Rand will be able to do what he has to do, but I think that something will happen to heal him of the 'pitiful' condition he is sinking into. Maybe Cadsuane will do something for him, maybe Nynaeve since she is the healer, maybe Moiraine, maybe Min, Aviendha and/or Elayne.

[Vambram]

Ah, but that was not Rand Al'Thor was it? Lews Therin was in complete control and performed all those weaves, and Rand was merely an observer.

 

There are more than a few fans here on Dragonmount who believe that Rand & LTT are not two seperate souls, two seperate individuals, but rather two seperate personalities within one soul, ... i.e. a form of schizophrenia and multiple personality syndrome.

 

 

[druidravi]

Ah, but that was not Rand Al'Thor was it? Lews Therin was in complete control and performed all those weaves, and Rand was merely an observer.

 

There are more than a few fans here on Dragonmount who believe that Rand & LTT are not two seperate souls, two seperate individuals, but rather two seperate personalities within one soul, ... i.e. a form of schizophrenia and multiple personality syndrome.

 

 

 

I know but that theory doesn't explain Rand's intricate knowledge of the forsaken , memories etc..

[Vambram]

Ah, but that was not Rand Al'Thor was it? Lews Therin was in complete control and performed all those weaves, and Rand was merely an observer.

 

There are more than a few fans here on Dragonmount who believe that Rand & LTT are not two seperate souls, two seperate individuals, but rather two seperate personalities within one soul, ... i.e. a form of schizophrenia and multiple personality syndrome.

 

 

 

I know but that theory doesn't explain Rand's intricate knowledge of the forsaken , memories etc..

 

Actually, yes it does, as they explained on those earlier threads. The explanation is that it is the LTT personality which was the dominant active personality during the Age of Legends. While during the AoL, it would be the personality of a former shepherd named Rand which would have been the second or split personality within LTT's mind durin the AoL.

 

[DuDZiK]

Ah, but that was not Rand Al'Thor was it? Lews Therin was in complete control and performed all those weaves, and Rand was merely an observer.

 

There are more than a few fans here on Dragonmount who believe that Rand & LTT are not two seperate souls, two seperate individuals, but rather two seperate personalities within one soul, ... i.e. a form of schizophrenia and multiple personality syndrome.

 

What is the basis for this belief? The way I understand it, there are souls that are tied to the wheel of time and get churned out every so often, and when they do they are put in a new body. This is what I gathered from the explanation about the heroes attatched to the Horn of Valere, both in Hunt for the Horn and subsequent books when Nynaeve and Elayne talked with Brigitte.

 

Keeping this in mind, I had always thought that Lews Therin's soul was simply put in Rand's body either after Rand started to channel, or when he was born and Lews Therin just sort of 'woke up' from Rand's channeling. At any rate I highly doubt that they are two mere personalities. That just sounds too... weak, to describe the things that Lews Therin has done with Rand; such as taking over his body while Rand was fully aware of it.

 

In fact is there not a viewing of Min's or a dream of Egwene's about seeing Rand's dead body and a figure settling into it, or something? That doesn't sound like personality to me.

 

At any rate, if Lews Therin is just a personality, it was still Lews Therin who took over Rand's body then and it was Lews Therin who made the weaves and did all the damage and the killing, not Rand. Rand was still only a bystander to the whole affair, and contributed nothing of any substance to the battle.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

That just sounds too... weak, to describe the things that Lews Therin has done with Rand; such as taking over his body while Rand was fully aware of it.

 

They are two incarnations of the same soul.  You are Joe Blow in one incarnation and Joe Bumblebee in another.  The "personalities" exist in the same soul but the older is totally dormrnt. In Rand's case the old incarnation has resurfaced and tries periodically to take control.

 

To say that LTT and Rand are not two facets of the same soul would be to literally refute the "saying", "prophecy", "observation", that Rand is "The Dragon Reborn".

[The winds of Time]

I do not beleive that rand is pitiful. as i see it the pattern has kinda turned against him for a while. the deal is that a physical strain such as embracing the source combined with not one but two wounds in his side create a overwhelming amount of strain on his system, as well as his concentration, and his mind set. in a different term its like this, try lifting a 50 pound sack while haveing one or two arrows stuck in ya. the pain from the arrows not only weakens your lifting capacity but your concentration as well. a migrane while having writers block and you have to write a essay due tomorrow would be another analagy.

 

as for the lewis therin discussion (didnt read it all but i have a some what jist of it) Lews therin could be described as almost a alternate personality to Rand al'Thor. the reincarnation of lews therin has indeed bonded the souls of the two but yet lews therin laid dormant for the beginning of rands life and was awakend by the power of channeling. now with 2 conflicting souls in the same body is a kind of dr. jeckle and mr. hyde ordeal or the hulk, certain things trigger a take over of a alternate personality in this case lewis therin. the exchanges of words between lewis therin and rand is the rubbing of the 2 souls against one another.

 

I am wondering however how rand is going to deal with the loss of his hand, that could be a weakining factor, for channeling in my understanding, depending on how you learn to channel you need certain movements to perform certain weaves, *ie. throwing a fireball* and as candasune stated it is extremely difficult to learn how to unlearn habits of movements of weaving. rand channeling it seemed, he used BOTH hands so he's gonna have to learn to channel without a hand. this in turn could lead to him learning to channel without any or limited movement like the wise ones. that in it self would be a EXTREME advantage over some of the other channelers. and indeed could make him stronger. so its a coin toss.

 

one last point i wish to make, falling for sneak attacks is not being weak. If a guy jumped you and he had a gun already in his hand, you with a gun in the holster are already at a disadvantage, the ambush by semirage was possible even with the detection of channelers because it was set as a DIPLOMATIC session. now if your a diplomat you dont go in armed because it already puts a mistrust between the 2 or more partys at risk. rand merely thought it was the daughter of nine moons he was meeting, so he had to go in as a diplomat instead of like in mats fashion, a always ready for battle with your sword half drawn. Thats why rand was suseptible to a sneak attack. that combined with the whole slow reaction time scenario (drawing the gun from the holster) led to the loss of his hand. That is why now he is weaker than he was.

[Kura]

All right, lets clear something up. LTT and Rand share the same soul, not two souls in the same body, they have the same soul. They have different personalities, yes, but they are both the dragon soul. LTT was most likely brought into being by the taint on Saidin digging into his body/mind, and pulling out it's earlier reincarnation.

 

LTT did channel against the Trollocs; he seized the source from Rand. Rand however, had control of the body, and the reason he was so slow when Semi attacked, was because LTT was again trying to seize the source from him, granted, I doubt the sickness helped.

 

Back to the original point of the topic, yeah, Rand is in a sorry state. Physically he is a disaster, and he is so broken up mentally that he's hardly human anymore. Though I think he will be healed mentally, and though I hate to bring it up, I have faith in the bodyswap theory to erase Rand's physical weaknesses, and the mental one of LTT, as LTT was most likely brought about by a taint ridden body, and without that I doubt he could be supported. Though thats all speculation.