End of CoS - Shadar Logoth

[trakand_01]

I've just finished reading CoS, which means that i've just read the scene where the High Lords of Illian offer the crown to Rand. Despite being annoyed at Rand's arrogance to think that 'King of the World' has a nice ring to it, it is events immediately preceding this that I am querying.

 

So Rand has killed Sammael with Balefire, and put Liah out of her mashadar-induced misery. Firstly I found this to be a massively dis-satisfactory way to end Sammael, I had thought there to be a much more intense battle with what has been for the last few books probably the most prominent Forsaken (after Lanfear went through the doorway).

 

Is Sammael actually dead? It seems incredibly fortuitous that one sweep of Balefire (and Sammael wasnt even the initial target, Liah was, Rand simply swept across from where she had stood), and Sammael is gone. He has so many plans afoot that I cannot help but think we may not have seen the last of him?

 

The other thing I am querying here is the man that helps Rand when he falls into the crater that Sammael has made; is this Moridin? I spent a good few minutes reading over the description; dark hair, black coat, tall, and Moridin was the only answer I could come up with. But why would Moridin (Ishy reincarnated, yes?) want to help Rand?! Why he would want to see Sammael gone I understand quite clearly if he wishes to be Nae'Blis but why he would actively help Rand, I do not understand. All I can think is the old saying 'your enemy's enemy is your friend' - if Moridin is attempting to 'off' Samy then I guess Rand is an ally.

 

Also, if Moridin IS Ishy reincarnate, well... Ishy was mad. Has the DO cleansed the madness out of him when creating him as Moridin? What i've seen so far of Moridin, he seems quite sane to me (as sane as he can be, that is).

[Gareth22]

From what I understand, Mashadar actually killed Sammuel at the very end.  It was hovering over Sammuel and pounced on him.  I believe this was cofirmed by RJ as well. (Sorry, I don't have the link)

 

All signs lead to the mysterious man being Moridin (in my opinion), and all I can say is that he is probably still somewhat insane, but we know very little of his plans.  He could want Rand still alive for the sole purpose of continuing to sow chaos, or he could just be waiting for TG, so that the DO can stomp on Rand.  It is hard to tell, cause we don't have very strong glimpses of his plans.

[trakand_01]

Ah I see, so Mashadar helped kill Sammael, I had made the poor assumption that Mashadar was working on behalf of Sammael.

 

I think i remember some quote from the man saying something about chaos... Hoping that Rand would continue to create it or something...

 

 

[Luckers]

So Rand has killed Sammael with Balefire, and put Liah out of her mashadar-induced misery. Firstly I found this to be a massively dis-satisfactory way to end Sammael, I had thought there to be a much more intense battle with what has been for the last few books probably the most prominent Forsaken (after Lanfear went through the doorway).

 

Sammael was killed by Mashadar, not Rand.

 

Is Sammael actually dead? It seems incredibly fortuitous that one sweep of Balefire (and Sammael wasnt even the initial target, Liah was, Rand simply swept across from where she had stood), and Sammael is gone. He has so many plans afoot that I cannot help but think we may not have seen the last of him?

 

Sammael is dead. RJ stated this specifically. Sammael is toast. Mashadar killed Sammael. His words, not mine.

 

The other thing I am querying here is the man that helps Rand when he falls into the crater that Sammael has made; is this Moridin? I spent a good few minutes reading over the description; dark hair, black coat, tall, and Moridin was the only answer I could come up with. But why would Moridin (Ishy reincarnated, yes?) want to help Rand?! Why he would want to see Sammael gone I understand quite clearly if he wishes to be Nae'Blis but why he would actively help Rand, I do not understand. All I can think is the old saying 'your enemy's enemy is your friend' - if Moridin is attempting to 'off' Samy then I guess Rand is an ally.

 

Also, if Moridin IS Ishy reincarnate, well... Ishy was mad. Has the DO cleansed the madness out of him when creating him as Moridin? What i've seen so far of Moridin, he seems quite sane to me (as sane as he can be, that is).

 

Firstly, yes the man is indeed Moridin. He aided Rand because Sammael had disobeyed the no-kill order. Sammael wasn't the focus, Rand was. This was a part of the whole idea about turning the Dragon once and for all to the shadow. That being said Sammael disobeyed the line of command, hence Moridin's direct desire fore his death.

 

Secondly, Moridin is Ishamael. Ishamaels instability was due to two things. The first being long term isolation, the second being the influence of the True Power on his physical body. The interactions with Rand educated him as to the first issue, and the new body answered the second.

 

Effectively though, Ishamael wasn't insane, just a bit... extravegent. The rise of rand serves as a bit of a slap to the face and a dash of cold water. I means he's still a meglomaniac, but hes no idiot.

[Harmless Bandit]

 

Secondly, Moridin is Ishamael. Ishamaels instability was due to two things. The first being long term isolation, the second being the influence of the True Power on his physical body. The interactions with Rand educated him as to the first issue, and the new body answered the second.

 

 

I think I understand the second point, but could you explain a bit more about the isolation thing? Do you mean that Ishy was for a long time a top dog and that got him a swollen head, and now that Rand is here, his bubble was pricked?

 

As to Sammael, I had thought he would have a more spectacular downfall, but I do understand his almost regular death. Although this is a story, it resembles real life very much--the interactions, I mean,--and as in real life, not everything is dramatic, even the death of a villain.

 

Though I think Sammael would have prefered a more glorious end to his career, if you ask me.

[Luckers]

In part i do, but also remember that Ishamael spent the better part of three thousand years alone... not only in that he was top dog, but he had no peers even remotely capable of addressing him, and no enemies who even knew he was there. Then comes Rand... you gotta forgive him if his reactions weren't completely rational.

 

As for Sammael, i liked the idea that he fell to a power he disdained. He thought to use Shadar Logoth as a battleground, but he ignored the power that it had in itself, and ultimately he died for it.

[Feral]

This is kind of off topic, but how did Liah last for so long in Shadar Logoth? She was there quite some time if I remember correctly.

[trakand_01]

I think it got her. She kind of succumbed to it, but being Aiel, was very good at avoiding Mashadar.

 

The words she spoke to Rand after he approached her, first seeing her jump from a window, were something along the lines of "This place is mine! No one may come here"

 

Whether she was referring to the particular building, which perhaps she had made some sort of haven, or Aridhol itself, I dont know.

 

I'm not sure how she avoided Mashadar for so long, but she seemed to have done so.

 

Another thing about this chapter that I'm not sure about is;

 

It was / is my understanding that when a Myrrdraal drives trollocs, they are bound to it somehow. In one of the earlier books, we saw the group besieged by a fist of trollocs and a Myrrdraal, and Lan goes straight for the M, and all of a sudden, the Trollocs all scream (I think one was actually pulling Perrin from his saddle at the time) and writhe around on the floor, dying. Turning, they find Lan has killed the M. It is explained to us that if the M dies, the T's attached to it do also.

 

But in Shadar Logoth, Rand beheads an M which is with 2 Ts, but the T's dont die - it describes in some detail him fighting them. is this simply because the M was still alive (apparently M take a long time to accept defeat), that the T's werent bound to that particular M, or that RJ slipped up?

 

 

[Vaped]

I think it got her. She kind of succumbed to it, but being Aiel, was very good at avoiding Mashadar.

 

Pretty sure that RJ mentions this and says that she's an Aiel, born and bred to survive in harsh climates.

 

 

But in Shadar Logoth, Rand beheads an M which is with 2 Ts, but the T's dont die - it describes in some detail him fighting them. is this simply because the M was still alive (apparently M take a long time to accept defeat), that the T's werent bound to that particular M, or that RJ slipped up?

 

 

 

Trollocs only die along with they Myrdraal if they are linked to it.  They usually are, because it seems to afford them some strength, along with obedience to the M, but this group could very well be not linked to the M.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

This is kind of off topic, but how did Liah last for so long in Shadar Logoth? She was there quite some time if I remember correctly.

 

RJ says:

 

She became absorbed into the city. She was left there and she is, after all, a Aiel, one of the people better at surviving under harsh circumstances than anyone else in the world. And also her corruption by Shadar Logoth gave her some protection.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=58

 

So, pretty much what everyone has said.

 

I would imagine that she knew she was corrupted, which is why she fled from Rand.

[trakand_01]

So once you succumb to SL, are we suggesting it stops hunting you, stops trying to 'get' you?

 

But she retained some of herself - she knew Rand.

 

How much of yourself must you have to lose, to succumb far enough for SL to kind of... leave you alone?

 

Does Mashadar still hunt you? Obviously it got her eventually but perhaps it was looking for Sammael - wrong place wrong time for Liah?

[RobertAlexWillis]

How much of yourself must you have to lose, to succumb far enough for SL to kind of... leave you alone?

 

I don't think its a cut and dried kind of "once you're 50 percent assimilated, the city doesn't come after you any more".  Its more like "the more assimilated you are, the easier it is to survive".

 

As far as Mashadar goes ... it probably hunts you less actively the more assimilated you are ... but again, its not a cut and dried thing.  If you're 100% assimilated, and you stroll through a big fogbank-o'-Mashadar, you're probably still screwed.  But if you're 35% assimilated, and pretty good at hiding anyway, then you can probably avoid it.

 

For the record, those numbers are totally arbitrary.  Jordan says she was "absorbed into the city".  To my mind that means the city recognized her as a part of itself (ie 100% assimilated).  Mashadar and the city of Shadar Logoth are not precisely the same thing. 

 

Also, being assimilated into Shadar Logoth would not mean she would lose her old memories.  Just as Padan Fain kept his old memories when he merged with Mordeth, Liah kept her "self", she just became a corrupted version of herself.

[DemandredFO]

Mashadar did not get Liah, Rand balefired her to make sure that wouldn't happen.  When Liah began to scream he altered the balefires path so it went for Liah and Mashadar got Sammael as a doorprize.  At least that's how it looked to me

[Feral]

I was thinking more of how did she survive for so long without food? But I guess Mashadar could explain that...

[trakand_01]

It did get her actually;

 

"A scream tore the darkness, a woman shrieking in agony beyond knowing. ... Atop the mound a shape stood outlined against the night sky in coat and breeches, a single thin tendril of Mashdar touching her leg. Arms outstretched, she thrashed about, unable to move from thespot, and her wordless wail seemed to call Rand's name."

   

 

So he balefired her, to save her the agony of being devoured by it.

 

[wvlr]

Actually;

 

1.  Mashdar touching her leg.

2.  Rand Balefired her.

3.  So by the laws of Balefire ->  Mashdar never touching her leg.

 

This is where it gets confusing:

 

4.  So since Mashdar never touched her leg - Rand did not need to Balefire her.

 

5.  So Mashdar would have touched her leg.

 

6.  So Rand would have Balefired her.

 

7.  So by the laws of Balefire ->  Mashdar never touching her leg.

 

8.  So since Mashdar never touched her leg - Rand did not need to Balefire her.

 

9.  So Mashdar would have touched her leg.

 

10.  So Rand would have Balefired her.

 

 

.?.?.?.?.?.?.?.    I'm so confused..............................

[Tyrell]

Rand would still have Balefired her because Memories remain, even when stuff associated with them is altered due to balefire messing with events. Fr'instance some of Rand's Aiel chums in the attack on Caemlyn look at Aviendha, Mat and Asmodean alittle strangely - they remember seeing them die, despite the fact that a lick of balefire changed events (and laminated Rahvin accross the wall).

[Gareth22]

What really interests me is how Liah got seperated to be begin with?  She is Aiel, part of a big group of aiel while Rand is trying to find the waygate, so where did she go, how did she get lost?  I mean one moment she is there, the next she is not.

 

I have wondered if maybe the city itself enticed her to move away, or if she just fell and knocked herself out somewhere.

 

Anyway.

[trakand_01]

I think it enticed her away. I think it preys on people who are perhaps more inclined to being 'curious' in that way - for example Mat - we all know he is fond of gilt, gold and jewels, and the city preyed on him. He took the dagger and look where it got him. I reckon Liah got curious about a building or a statue, went to look and got separated.

[Paviel]

Actually;

 

1.  Mashdar touching her leg.

2.  Rand Balefired her.

3.  So by the laws of Balefire ->  Mashdar never touching her leg.

 

This is where it gets confusing:

 

4.  So since Mashdar never touched her leg - Rand did not need to Balefire her.

 

5.  So Mashdar would have touched her leg.

 

6.  So Rand would have Balefired her.

 

7.  So by the laws of Balefire ->  Mashdar never touching her leg.

 

8.  So since Mashdar never touched her leg - Rand did not need to Balefire her.

 

9.  So Mashdar would have touched her leg.

 

10.  So Rand would have Balefired her.

 

 

.?.?.?.?.?.?.?.    I'm so confused..............................

 

That pretty much sums up the reason for the Aes Sedai's prohibition against using balefire. It seriously screws up the Pattern. Moiraine goes into more detail in TFOH, although I can't give a page number offhand...

 

But, to answer your question, the use of balefire does not erase the use of balefire. Even though Rand may have burned the Mashadar around Liah, that did not erase the fact that he had used balefire (or would use balefire), whether he had needed to or not.

 

Anyway, since Mashadar killed Sammael instead of balefire, could the Dark One resurrect him? I know he can't resurrect anybody who has been balefired, but does Mashadar also counteract the Dark One's ability to resurrect people?

 

I guess that also raises the question of whether the Dark One WOULD resurrect Sammael. Sammael did claim to have a "truce" with Rand, and if the Dark One saw that as treachery, he would be no more inclined to resurrect Sammael than Asmodean.

[Tyrell]

Negative on the logic front there.

 

When something is Balefired memory still remains. So rand still had the memory of her being Mashdar'ed to give him a reason to Balefire her.

 

An example of this is the Aiel who participated in the attack on Caemlyn giving Asmodean funny looks - they remembered seeing him die, despite the fact that it never happened.

[Kura]

Rand still had the memory, but after some one is balefired their toast. They aren't coming back, the reason to balefire was still there, the above sequence wouldn't have happened. Balefire erases what happened, and then destroys them completely. Even if they can eventually be reincarnated. >_>

[wvlr]

Sorry people.

 

You are quite correct.

 

I was just making a paradoxical joke about Balefire.  Yes - it does not really work that way.    But I had to purposfully ignore the complete aspect to make my joke which no one even got.    :'( :'( :'(

[Paviel]

So, does Mashadar prevent resurrection?

[Generic Aelfinn #2]

i agree with what you said about the treachery.

 

however, it is possible, that SL, and mashadar in this case, can prevent resurrection.  we know that the taint on SL is the 'anti-thesis' of the shadow, and by extension, the TP.  i would suspect that the more time you spend in SL, the more its taint would incubate inside of you. As such, when the DO would try to resurrect you, he would have to 'fight' against the SL taint.  I don't think that sammael actually spent enough time in SL for this to happen, yet it may be possible that mashadar delivers a mega-dose of the SL taint(i'm not too sure on this, as i'm not too knowledgable on mashadar).