Verin's lie?

[RobertAlexWillis]

That would work if she didn't know where he was.

 

It would if the prophecy told her where he was.  Which it did.

 

But are you really suggesting that she decided to let him go, to God only knows where, actually sent him , and then went looking to try and figure out where he went?

 

Yup.  Moiraine  took lots of calculated risks, and this was one.  Events proved her right, I might add.

 

No, she hadn't.  She had decided to "appear" to give him space so that he could be "handled gently."

 

Dead wrong.  She decided to appear to lose interest by actually giving him space.  Big difference.

 

She lost him, to the extent that she did, because of a massive shadowspawn attack, during the night, in the 2nd most dangerous place in the known world.

 

Thus proving that really strange things, (like, I don't know, going through portal stones?) happen around Rand, and normal tracking methods are not always to be counted on.  Besides which, she had to actually give him space.  If he had caught Lan following them, he never would have trusted Moiraine again, and she knew it.

 

Whether its true or not, we know she believed that it was so, because she said so, and she's bound by the Oaths.

 

If i remember correctly from my middle school English classes, his is just as non-specific as himself.

 

Not in context, it isn't.  Just because Jordan didn't write out the whole thing doesn't mean that there wasn't context in the source document.

 

Maybe you remember a little book called TDR?

 

Maybe you meant TSR?  And Lanfear, Moridin, Semirhage, and Asmodean had no trouble finding him.  Rahvin was irritated, but he didn't really put many resources into finding him.

 

Lanfear had him helpless as a babe frequently.

 

Your point was "why didn't they gang up on him?"  They could have, but they didn't trust each other farther than they could spit.  Or didn't you read TFoH?

 

...and then risk being caught in her deception by the simple expedient of someone asking Moraine why she sent Verin...if the BA were that transparent they would have all been caught centuries ago.  Verin could have, (and would have,) skirted the truth in a manner that would have been much harder to refute.

 

Um, according to your theory, she risked just as much.  She risked exposing that she Compelled Moiraine, since, obviously Moiraine didn't remember sending her.  So, thats pretty much a moot point.  The fact is, it did come out, and didn't really impact anything.

 

Okay, lets just say, for the sake of argument that Ingtar's party only managed to go 1/2 as fast as Verin's group, they would still functionally be 6 days apart.

 

No, because Ingtar and co zig-zagged for the first 4 days.  Also, the Aes Sedai Verin was with were moving in a generally southerly direction too ... its not like they were moving in opposite directions.  But go on ...

 

Leaving out the fact that Ingtar and Co., didn't stop to let Verin catch up,

 

Actually, they did stop, several times.  I'm going to compile a timeline for you here ... but it'll take a few minutes, so I'll post it later.

[RobertAlexWillis]

OK.  Lets first establish the point at which Verin caught up with Ingtar's group.

 

It was less than a full day's ride south of the river Erinin.  After Ingtar's group crossed the river (in the early-to-mid afternoon, considering the time they spent there, and the fact that the sun was already "overhead" when they first caught sight of the village at the crossing, per ch 10), Ingtar called an early stop (see the first sentence of TGH ch 11).  So, they were not more than 3 hours south of the Erinin.  That was the night Rand dissapeared.  Verin caught up with them the next day, not far from where they started (TGH ch 14).  So, approximately a half day's ride south of the Erinin.

 

Now, lets establish when Verin left the Aes Sedai convoy, and started south after them.

 

The Aes Sedai left Fal Dara just minutes after Ingtar.  They moved straight southeast (not having to veer back and forth, following a zig-zagging trail) toward Medo on the River Mora (all this per TGH ch 12).  Medo is not on the map, nor is a distance given, however, given its stone piers and the description as being along the border between Shienar and Arafel, it is probably around the point where the main road from Fal Moran to Shol Arbela crosses the Medo.  Certainly whatever settlement is along that road must have dock facilities for trade, and if there was one closer, the Aes Sedai would have used it.

 

Drawing an arc on the map to see where Ingtar and co. would have been at this time (and keeping in mind that they were travelling in zig zags for the first couple days, which offsets the slower speed of the Amyrlin's troop), they would be about 3-4 days south of Fal Dara at that time (meaning it took 3-4 days for the Amyrlin's party to reach the river, which fits the description) and still north of the River Erinin.

 

Now, when the Amyrlin's party reaches the river Medo, Egwene finds out that Verin left the party two days before.  We know Verin was there the first night (she taught the wondergirls their lesson) but after that we do not see her.  So, Verin (and Moiraine and Liandrin) probably left the Amyrlin's party the second night out of Fal Dara.

 

Given that, Verin would have only been at most a day or so behind Ingtar almost the whole time (since Ingtar was moving south, and The Amyrlin's party was moving southeast ... hardly opposite directions).  Given Ingtar's early zig-zagging, the early stop after crossing the Erinin, the late start after Rand's dissapearance, as well as the fact that Verin was travelling alone, unarmored (therefore faster) ... its not a stretch at all that Verin caught them.  She probably didn't even have to draw strength from Tomas or use the Power on her horse.

[bjclinton]

all of these theories aside, i think its much easier to believe that somehow, Verin lied.

 

Verin's story will be told in AMOL- its a huge part of the plot- the role that she plays.

 

In saying that, its going to be MUCH easier to give an explanation on how she has been able to lie than to go back 10 books and explain that particular scene, and others when there was an apparent lie.

 

sometimes the first and easiest solution to a problem is the right one, and in this case it seems most logical that Verin lied.

[cloglord]

Sorry for the backwards nature of this response, I answer your latest points first, and worked back.  There was a lot to cover. :)

 

It was less than a full day's ride south of the river Erinin.  After Ingtar's group crossed the river (in the early-to-mid afternoon, considering the time they spent there, and the fact that the sun was already "overhead" when they first caught sight of the village at the crossing, per ch 10), Ingtar called an early stop (see the first sentence of TGH ch 11).  So, they were not more than 3 hours south of the Erinin.  That was the night Rand dissapeared.  Verin caught up with them the next day, not far from where they started (TGH ch 14).  So, approximately a half day's ride south of the Erinin.

 

Wrong and wrong.  The group crossed the river "only a few hours after they had broken camp.  At this point in the chase Ingtar had them breaking camp before dawn, so they reached the river early in the morning.  After a quick scouting trip, the return of the ferry to the correct side, and the "simple" burial of Changu and Nidao they continued on through "perfect country for the horses" that Ingtar took advantage of in a "steady, ground-covering pace."  When they got to the second village, beyond the river, they stopped long enough to scout the town, find the dead fade nailed to the wall, and then continued on.  You are correct however, that Ingtar did call an earlier stop that night, but keep in mind that at that point Ingtar was keeping the group moving from befoer dawn until "full dark," most days.  The early stop was described as when the sun was, "still golden above the horizon."  It was still late, just early in comparison to the other nights.  The halt was called, nearly a full day's march south of the river. 

 

Now, lets establish when Verin left the Aes Sedai convoy, and started south after them.

 

The Aes Sedai left Fal Dara just minutes after Ingtar.  They moved straight southeast (not having to veer back and forth, following a zig-zagging trail) toward Medo on the River Mora (all this per TGH ch 12).  Medo is not on the map, nor is a distance given, however, given its stone piers and the description as being along the border between Shienar and Arafel, it is probably around the point where the main road from Fal Moran to Shol Arbela crosses the Medo.  Certainly whatever settlement is along that road must have dock facilities for trade, and if there was one closer, the Aes Sedai would have used it.

 

Again, wrong.  As per chapter 12 the column, "angled Westward as they traveled...through the Shienarian hills."  Not southeast, (I think you might have meant SW.) They didn't follow the road, as the road runs through Fal Moran, they went through the hills.  However Medo is pretty easy to posit on a map, as the book tells us that Medo is on the river Mora along the border, and that Mora runs into the Erinin.  If you look at the map, I've provided below, there is a stub of river that runs along the border that also runs into the Erinin, That is where I put the red dot, point one.

 

Now, when the Amyrlin's party reaches the river Medo, Egwene finds out that Verin left the party two days before.  We know Verin was there the first night (she taught the wondergirls their lesson) but after that we do not see her.  So, Verin (and Moiraine and Liandrin) probably left the Amyrlin's party the second night out of Fal Dara.

 

No, it took 6.5 days to reach Medo (steven Cooper's timeline based on the fact that the moon is waxing) and Verin left 2 days before, 4.5 days out of Fal Dara.

 

Drawing an arc on the map to see where Ingtar and co. would have been at this time (and keeping in mind that they were travelling in zig zags for the first couple days, which offsets the slower speed of the Amyrlin's troop), they would be about 3-4 days south of Fal Dara at that time (meaning it took 3-4 days for the Amyrlin's party to reach the river, which fits the description) and still north of the River Erinin.

 

I did just as you suggested and drew an arc.  By the time that Verin caught up to the group they have traveled nearly 6 full days (1/2 day the first day, 4 full days from dawn to dusk, the nearly full day they crossed the river, and the hours spent in the morning of the 7th day before Verin caught up.)I estimated their trajectory keeping in mind that they did not have to follow a zigzag course the last two days of the chase.  That is the yellow dot and the number two, the point at which Verin caught up.  The blue line is an "as the crow flies" path that Verin would have had to cross having left on the 4th day traveling with the Aes Sedai, in order to catch up to Ingtar.

 

 

as you can see, she made a trip similar in length to a 6.5 day trip for Aes Sedai in a little over 2 days.  Also keep in mind that she would have had to be clairvoyant to know exactly where they were headed, as Ingtar's group left before Verin's and traveled unexpectedly south instead of towards the blight as was predicted.  So, I'll ask it again, how did Verin know where Rand & Co. was, and how did she make a 6 day trip in 2 days?

 

It would if the prophecy told her where he was.  Which it did.

 

Like it told her to look for him on the slopes of dragonmount the day he was born, or how it told her to look for him in the stone of tear, or the "city, lost and forsaken,"?

 

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No, she hadn't.  She had decided to "appear" to give him space so that he could be "handled gently."

 

Dead wrong.  She decided to appear to lose interest by actually giving him space.  Big difference.

 

I guess "handled gently" is morainespeak for "not handled at all."  She can't handle him if she doesn't know where he is.

 

If he had caught Lan following them, he never would have trusted Moiraine again, and she knew it.

 

Whether its true or not, we know she believed that it was so, because she said so, and she's bound by the Oaths.

 

Just like he never trusted Moraine when she apparently sent Verin after him?  She never said that she was going to let him go entirely, she said that she was going to "appear" to let him go his own way, and as I pointed out, and you failed to adress, she said these things before the situation changed in a sudden and drastic manner.

 

Not in context, it isn't.  Just because Jordan didn't write out the whole thing doesn't mean that there wasn't context in the source document.

 

Just because he didn't write it all out doesn't mean that there was more context either.  The prophecies are vauge and open to interpretation and misinterpretation.  The point isn't to prove that he was just as likely to have ended up in Tar Valon, the point is to illustrate how easy it is to misinterpret these prophecies. It was not absolutely sure that he would go to Toman head next, and suggesting that Moraine knew that she could figure out where he would go next from her demonstrably poor prophetic interpretations is not likely either.

 

Quote

Maybe you remember a little book called TDR?

 

Maybe you meant TSR?

 

No, I meant TDR, you know the book where the whole premise is that Rand is running away, and everyone is trying to find him in a very unsuccessful way.  The other examples I gave are from yet other books, in which Rand manages to quite succesfully evade people who are looking for him.

 

 

Your point was "why didn't they gang up on him?"  They could have, but they didn't trust each other farther than they could spit.  Or didn't you read TFoH?

 

No my point was, why didn't they all find him at Toman Head, if it was so easy to find him from the prophecies.  Or didn't you read this thread?  Don't twist my words, if you want to debate the stupidity of the forsaken we'll do that in your other thread.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

The halt was called, nearly a full day's march south of the river. 

 

I'll concede that.  It only adds half a day to the timeline, well within Verin's ability to manage.

 

Not southeast, (I think you might have meant SW.)

 

I did mean southwest, and southwest is where they went.  If they had gone due west from Fal Dara, they would have ended up on the Arafel side (as your map clearly shows).  They may have gone due west for a very short time, but in order to stay in Shienar, they would have had to tend south as well.

 

As your map shows.

 

No, it took 6.5 days to reach Medo (steven Cooper's timeline based on the fact that the moon is waxing) and Verin left 2 days before, 4.5 days out of Fal Dara.

 

While I like the Cooper timeline, it isn't perfect.  The Amyrlin was pushing her people hard ... 6 and a half days is a bit long.  I'd be willing to split the difference, however, and call it 5 days.

 

That only adds one more day, which means that Verin had to make up two and a half days.  As you say, it is a journey of approximately the same distance that the Aes Sedai made to Medo.  Verin can easily travel twice as fast by herself as an group the size of a village with ceremonial trappings.  The journey is well within the capabilities of any determined, lone rider who doesn't have to set up camp, and has a dead easy trail to follow.

 

As evidenced by the fact that she made it.

 

And here we are again ... I'm talking about what happened in the books.  We know she made this journey.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Like it told her to look for him on the slopes of dragonmount the day he was born

 

Yup.  If she had been free to go out that day, and already known what he looked like, she could have scooped him right up.

 

how it told her to look for him in the stone of tear

 

Yup.  Which is where she caught up with him, that time.

 

or the "city, lost and forsaken,"

 

Yes, well, she clearly misinterpreted that.  Since she didn't have anything like Do'Miere Avron and another Dark Prophecy giving the modern name of the place to corroborate it with.

 

Again ... these are all things we know happened.  They're in the book.  She saw the prophecy, and made the connection.

 

I guess "handled gently" is morainespeak for "not handled at all."  She can't handle him if she doesn't know where he is.

 

For the time being, thats exactly what it meant, and thats what she said it meant.

 

"I cannot travel with him."

 

"He must be let off the leash for a time.  There is no help for it."

 

(Both Moiraine to Siuan, TGH ch 5)

 

"What ... " With an effort he steadied his voice.  "What are you going to do with me?"

 

"Nothing," the Amyrlin said, and he blinked.

 

(Rand and Siuan, TGH ch 8 )

 

Unless Moiraine and Siuan are both free from the Oaths, they both really meant "hands off" for the time being.

 

The crux of this is, you don't believe that Moiraine would depend on the prophecies to find him again.  But throughout their planning in thsi episode, Moiraine and Siuan both constantly refer to the Prophecies when determining their course of action.  They believe in the prophecies.  They trust them.

 

And again, events show they were right to.

 

No my point was, why didn't they all find him at Toman Head, if it was so easy to find him from the prophecies.

 

My point is, Ba'alzamon and Lanfear both did!  The others apparently weren't interested, at that time.  Rahvin, Sammael, Mesaana, and Graendal were busy setting up their power bases, Be'lal wanted to get Callandor, and so had to draw Rand to him in Tear, Semirhage was busy across the ocean, Moghedien was hiding somewhere (for all we know she was there), Asmodean wasn't going to risk a confrontation, and Aginor and Balthamel were dead.  That only leaves Demandred, and he seems to have had a different plan from the beginning ... he hasn't confronted Rand at all except at the Cleansing, when he was basically forced to.

 

In other words, the lack of multiple, visible Forsaken at Falme is not an indication of the un-dependable nature of prophecy.  Its an indication of their differing styles.

 

Just because he didn't write it all out doesn't mean that there was more context either.

 

Yeah ... well, since Moiraine asked Vandene "Does anything link the Dragon to Toman Head?" and Vandene responded with the "Five ride forth" bit, there must have been something in the prophecy that gave it context.

 

And, yet again, events proved them right.

 

What this boils down to is, although she didn't particularly like it, Moiraine trusted in her ability to find Rand through the prophecies.  Whether you think thats a good idea or not is moot ... its what she did.

 

And therefore, going waaaaaaay back to the original point, there was no reason for Verin to try to Compel her to stand aside, giving Verin space with Rand, since standing aside was her stated plan (whether it was a good one or not).

 

Now ... obviously, we once again disagree.  I'm OK with that.

[cloglord]

Quote

"I cannot travel with him."

 

Quote

"He must be let off the leash for a time.  There is no help for it."

 

(Both Moiraine to Siuan, TGH ch 5)

 

Quote

"What ... " With an effort he steadied his voice.  "What are you going to do with me?"

 

"Nothing," the Amyrlin said, and he blinked.

 

(Rand and Siuan, TGH ch 8 )

 

Unless Moiraine and Siuan are both free from the Oaths, they both really meant "hands off" for the time being.

 

We aren't talking about Siuan, we are talking about Moraine.  Nothing that you cited indicates that Moraine intended to let him drop off the grid entirely, only that she intended to give hime space.  The three oaths don't apply, because the things she said are open to interpretation and they were said prior to the the Horn's theft and the massive change in circumstances that arose from that.  A point, that you still haven't adressed.

 

That only adds one more day, which means that Verin had to make up two and a half days.  As you say, it is a journey of approximately the same distance that the Aes Sedai made to Medo.  Verin can easily travel twice as fast by herself as an group the size of a village with ceremonial trappings.  The journey is well within the capabilities of any determined, lone rider who doesn't have to set up camp, and has a dead easy trail to follow.

 

As evidenced by the fact that she made it.

 

It's not that simple, even if it is as you say, 2.5 days to make up, she would have to cut across to find that, "dead easy trail" and then follow it directly, which would signifigantly add to her journey.  Considering that she should have no idea whatsoever what direction the group went in the first place, she should have had to return to Fal Dara to be sure where to pick up the trail.  That is unless she had some other means of knowing where the group was located.  It isn't as simple as asking how she physically made the journey, you also have to ask, how she knew to cut across.

 

In other words, the lack of multiple, visible Forsaken at Falme is not an indication of the un-dependable nature of prophecy.  Its an indication of their differing styles.

 

 

How about all those other times I mentioned.  Why couldn't they find him in TDR, TSR, WH, or KoD's?  I guess they forgot to ask Vandene and Adelas.

 

Listen, no one denies that Moraine showed up in the right place, and that Verin made the trip.  The question is how they did it, and why. 

[RobertAlexWillis]

The three oaths don't apply, because the things she said are open to interpretation and they were said prior to the the Horn's theft and the massive change in circumstances that arose from that.  A point, that you still haven't adressed.

 

First of all, Moiraine verbally approved of Siuan's course of action, when Siuan asked if "we" (an inclusive pronoun) were doing the right thing.  Then, Moiraine left Rand alone.  She did what she said she would do.

 

That seems like a pretty good basis for concluding that her plans did not change, in that regard.  You know, what actually happened?

 

Why couldn't they find him in TDR, TSR, WH, or KoD's?

 

The first book where he managed to effecively hide was at the end of TPOD, after the attack by Dashiva and co in Cairhien.  That was because he had mastered Travelling, and had multiple bases of operations to hide in.  Since your example was originally intended to show that if the Forsaken couldn't find him, Moiraine would be unlikely to, its completely void, because the Forsaken could and did find him frequently.  In TGH, Rand could not Travel, and had no bases of operations.

 

Until he learned those methods of hiding, the Forsaken found him anytime they wanted to.  He got personal surprise visits from Lanfear all the time.  Ishamael practically lived in his dreams.  Everyone else either had other things on their minds, or chose to draw him out rather than go after him.

 

The question is how they did it, and why.

 

No, thats YOUR question.  The answers are in the books ... its not a big secret.  They did it the way they said they did it, for the reasons they said they were doing it.

 

Now, I'm going to stop.  You think what you think, and no force on earth will change that, so, we disagree.  This isn't interesting anymore.

[Tyrell]

Ishy and Lanfear could find him by his Ta'veren-ness, I seem to recall a comment made by Graendal? maybe in WH that seemed to indicate the others couldn't do that.

[cloglord]

Now, I'm going to stop.  You think what you think, and no force on earth will change that, so, we disagree.  This isn't interesting anymore.

 

You see, you're wrong.  There are very few things that I definately think will happen, and even those things I am not sure of the details.  In fact, I don't believe that Verin nessecarily compelled Moraine.  I am a Randland agnostic, I don't believe anything, until its on the written page, but like any good agnostic, I like to ask questions, I like to look at things from different angles, and I sometimes like to disregard the obvious, just to make sure.

 

Short answer, there is a question here, and I'm trying to look at it in a new way, I don't know that I'm right, but than again neither should you.

[RobertAlexWillis]

You see, you're wrong.

 

If you say so, cloggy.  If you say so.

[cloglord]

You think what you think, and no force on earth will change that

 

You realize how pretentious it is for you to tell me what I will or won't think don't you?

[RobertAlexWillis]

You realize how pretentious it is for you to tell me what I will or won't think don't you?

 

Um ... ok -shrug- I'm a pretentious bastard.

[peacesells]

There is another place I believe Verin has lied.  In the epilogue of POD after she is done with Beldeine she asks the two aiel guards to replinish the water since Beldeine "overturned" the water in the tent.  She knew the two Aiel guards would pass the wasted water knowledge to the wise ones so they would be harsher on Beldeine.

[BrainFireBob]

That's not a lie- Beldeine *did* overturn the water, due to her reaction to what Verin did to her.

 

And Verin did not tell them to punish Beldeine- she knew it would result, but that does not make what she said a lie.

[peacesells]

I guess I'll have to go back and re-read that part.  I thought she had drank all the water...not over turned the pitcher.

[Hokuten]

this thread was funny/interesting, then annoying, and ultimately a waste of space.

 

An entire argument based off of "Verin used Compulsion on Moraine."  Honestly it is next to retarded to try and speculate why/how Verin "lied" and come up with these ridiculous theories to try and explain it.

 

Most likely: Verin has her own Aes Sedai agenda like nearly all of them do.  To accomplish her own agenda she manipulated the truth like all Aes Sedai do...  Very similar to how she acts with the Aiel apprentice Aes Sedai.  We will know what her agenda is and how she managed to 'lie' in the next book.

[BKVMC]

verins botched together compulsion weave  she uses on people  requires  that person  to  be in a state they wont notice ( like after the healing  throws  the sisters she used it on were in) i dont recall verin healing or doing anything to moiraine  that would have lowered  her  attention. and it requires an element of trust(  from verins own POV in  LOC)  i dont think moiraine truly trusts verin  in fact in  her letter to  Rand she lists verin  by name .

 

Also  Verin and moiraine as well  not only had the prophecys  to  indicate where Rand May  be going they  also  have the script on the prison walls that the  Myrdraal  or trollocs wrote in fact verin  and the other brown sister studied that script  in  depth.

[aevogt]

Maybe this was addressed and I missed it (if so I apologise) but...

 

There is no apparent interaction between Verin and Moraine, at all, after they leave Fal Dara. 

 

Even though we know that they are together, at least in the same vicinity, at Toman Head.  The next we see either of them, Moraine is encamped with Rand in the Mountains of Mist and Verin is on her way back to Tar Valon with Mat, Hurin and the girls. 

 

I find this a bit odd.

 

What if the lie isn't Verin's?  What if it was Moraine, hiding something?

 

Wouldn't she have suspected Verin of something enough to call her on it.

[trakand_01]

this has probably been covered at some point too, but i think that it will turn out at some point Moiraine said with Verin there "We musn't allow him to go alone, he must have an Aes Sedai with him at all times to guide him" or something some such. Thus it is Moiraine's instruction that Rand should always be accompanied by an AS. As she herself is unable to go with him, V takes it upon herself to follow Moiraine's instruction and go to him.

 

If you look at it that way, it is really Moiraine sending her, although i think it is the use of the word 'sent' that throws us off. If Verin had said "Moiraine said you should never be without an AS and as she can't come along I came instead to uphold her wishes" then there would be no confusion.

 

Similarly it could have confused Moiraine if someone said "Did you send Verin?" she would say no, as she hadnt said "Verin, you go with Rand" but by expressing her belief that he shouldnt be alone to Verin, in an indirect way she DID send her.