Real Life Weapon Equivalents

[Diasfergo]

Greetings I am not a regular to these forums but, I have read all of the wheel of time series and enjoy it greatly. I am curious if any of you would be so kind as to provide me with the Names or a guide to relative equivalents to several weapons listed in the books. Of course very little will be exactly as Mr. Jordan described it however there are a few that I would greatly enjoy researching and possibly eventually crafting a few myself.

 

The weapons in Question are:

Ashandarei - Japanese naginata

Aiel Spears (there are many different types of spears from around the world I am looking for a specific close comparison)- suggested to be a pilum

Perrin's Axe

Aiel belt knife

Rand's Sword - Modified Kat or Katana (Any artists wanna take a stab at this one?)

 

 

I have a general Idea of some of these however some confirmation or opinions on what most closely suits these weapons would be greatly helpful in my research.

 

[ShadowsFell]

This (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guan_dao) might be what RJ had in mind for the Ashandarei.

[Guest silver89]

Ashandarei= the Japanese naginata.

 

Rands sword= the katana.

 

[Diasfergo]

Many thanks the Katana was what I assumed but the Naginata was not in my list of possibilities however that looks nearly perfectly correct. If anyone has any more ideas as to what is what I would be very pleased to hear them.

[SinisterDeath]

I'm not positive, but I don't think rands sword is a 'true' katana.

It may very easilly be a cross between a scimatar, and a katana... Or just a 'flatter' katana, but I wouldn't say it say its a true, or a pure katana.

[Lunan]

rand's sword is actually NOT a katana. i am a sword collector, ok it is a kat but it isn't. it has a bit of the early SHAMSHIR in it, yes it is based on a katana, its more of a tachi or o-katana. a katan is at max (traditional use) a 26 inch blade, rands is at least 30 more likely 32 or 34 inch blade, also the tsuka(handle) on a traditional kat is between 10 and 12 inches, rands seems to be about 14, as far as i can tell all the fittings are not a kats but much more western, no seppa not collar etc.

 

now the wheel of time swords i have seen from time to time are all total trash, and DONOT match the books descrip for the sword. the closest your likely to find in real life it going to be a tachi with some custom fitting work

 

ok off soap box now

 

edit: perrin's axe is a fairy standard war axe from the middle ages, vikkings, muslums, crusaders, franks, etc all used similar weapons, i would go looking up saxon war axes to find some fairly close examples, the big issue is "wicked half moon blade" and that its about 10lbs. the way some people "see" this is not even close to what it would really look like

 

and the aeil spears are very close to both an african weapon and an early greek/roman weapon whose name escapes me at the moment.

 

the belt knives are fairly straight foward, all nations, peoples, etc have a belt knife of some form and the aiel's will be similar in that they are NOT uniform, they will be the work of various smiths, made to a persons specific order, etc. for example reading the books you'll note that some of the maiden's are longer then the mens, i know if i was going hand to hand in a sword/spear age i would have 3 types of "belt knives" on me, a machete form on my back, a good utility knife (read 8 to 10 inches) and  wakisashi style. and the utility peice would be determined by territorial conditions, for example iraq i would want a cold steel srk, for germany i would want a simonich salish

[callandor]

it can't be a "true" katana because the crossguards are'nt right. a katana (if im sont mistaken) has a circular crossguard, and if the sword that is viewed and drawn in the map is correct, Rands sword had long crossguards.

[Guest silver89]

Agreed.

The katana is just the sword that I picture (with slight modifications) in my head. And I believe that the way the sword is used is simillar to how you use a katana.(no expert, so fire away) ;)

[Lunan]

just adde dmore to my other post. but yes it isn't a true kat. it is a fantasy book after all.

the big issue rj didn't really understand about swords is that the "sword fight" should NEVER be a duel in the way expressed, steel on steel is VERY bad, and stupid! 1 a sword CAN'T take that abuse(yes power made ones don't chip go dull or break, but those are VERY rare) a sword fight is over in the first 2 moves, a sword IS NOT a primary melee weapon, a battle axe, a good mace or morning star would be my first choice (assuming a rifle with good sights and nice snipper postion at least a klick away arn't avalibe

[dubz]

Remember in the Shadow Rising, where Rand goes to Rhuidean and sees through his ancestors eyes!  The first time the spears were used was when they were broken in half to make it easier to maneuver.  Im sure it has been modified since but essentially it is a spear with only half the shaft.  Similar to the Roman pilum, since they were able to carry 3 or 4 at a time.  Perhaps a little firmer so as not to bend when used as a stabbing weapon or for blocking.

[Diasfergo]

Wow great stuff folks! Any chance the pictures on the blog represent these weapons. (i.e. the short black spear in one of the pictures) Also Aiel belt knives has been suggested to me to resemble a Kukri.

[SinisterDeath]

You know, I was just thinking... Remember Jasons blog entry about visiting Jordans home? And all those pictures...

http://picasaweb.google.com/jwdenzel/RobertJordanSFuneral/photo?authkey=8BLwdMVC4Js#5114594118028968546

I can't help but think that the first or second sword on the left is supposed to be rands sword. (maybe even a merger of the two?)

That dagger definately looks like its inspiration for Fains Dagger. :P

 

 

 

Also

http://picasaweb.google.com/jwdenzel/RobertJordanSFuneral/photo?authkey=8BLwdMVC4Js#5114594139503805074

OMG, RJ has a Vampirella statuette?!

[Guest silver89]

WOW, RJ had a bit of a collection didn't he, must've taken years and years to collect all that stuff.

 

I believe that the first sword on the left is the sword that they made using the description from the books, maybe. :)

[KingKastchei]

I really don't think that most of the swords in WoT have a real world equivalent.  I think the closest thing would be the Seanchan, and if any race is using a katana type sword, it would be them.  Think about the armor the Seanchan use, segmented, insect like armor with thin plumes on the helms.  That sure sounds like Japanese type armor to me. 

 

Rand's sword is NOT a katana, it is specifically described as having braided quillions, which a katana does not have.  I think the closest thing would be a scimitar or a saber without the knuckle guard.  Or maybe a much straighter shamshir.

 

The Aiel spears are probably closest to African spears, probably zulu or something similar to that.  Especially the way they are described as holding 3 or 4 in one hand with a rawhide buckler.  That sounds like a traditional african setup to me.

 

The Ashanderai is probably a cross between a naginata and a dao.  A naginata probably wouldn't have enough blade space to engrave what is described on it, but a dao would.

 

A knife is a knife is a knife, and probably the different countries have different styles they prefer.

 

Perrin's axe is nothing more than a basic heavy, single bladed battle axe, very simple in design.  Could come from any number of different cultures.

[Guest leebarr]

The Budk mag and online store has serval weapon that come very close to what you are looking for. Hope that helps

 

[Davian93]

Similar to the Roman pilum, since they were able to carry 3 or 4 at a time. 

 

Other than the length, the Aiel spear is most certainly not a pilum or even similar since it can be reused.  Pilum were specifically designed to penetrate a shield, get caught with the barbed tip and bend so as to make both the shield and pilum useless after one throw.  Aiel spears are much like Zulu spears (as mentioned above) though.  Essentially it is simply a standard spear with a shorter staff and then wielded by an expert fighter.

[Quixotic]

What about the gunpowder weapons introduced in the KOD?

[KingKastchei]

Sounds very similar to the cannons that the Chinese invented way back when.

[Davian93]

Basically Mat has come up with very primitive gunpowder grenades and as for the cannon...

 

FROM WIKIPEDIA:

Fire lances", gunpowder-propelled arrows, were used in China from at least 1132. The first documented record of artillery with gunpowder propellent used on the battlefield was on January 28, 1132 when General Han Shizhong of the Song Dynasty used escalade and Huochong to capture a city in Fujian. In 1221, cast iron bombs thrown by hand, sling, and catapult were mentioned. Somewhere around 1249, the Chinese of the Song Dynasty began to load early gunpowder in the middle of thick bamboo as a projection firearm, firing clay pellets like a shotgun.

 

Around the time of the wars between the Mongols and the Song Dynasty (1268-1279), mortars with bronze tubes first appeared.[3] (However, the earliest certain example was dated 1332). Additionally, the Chinese and Mongols took up the use of "true" gunpowder instead of the slower-burning older mixture - which made this early cannon, known as the Huochong, more reliable and powerful. During wartime, the Chinese used the early gunpowder weapons in defence against the Mongols, mounting more than 3,000 bronze and iron casted cannons on the Great Wall of China. The weapon was later taken up by the Mongol conquerors, and also the Koreans. Many of the earliest weapons seem to primarily have functioned as psychological weapons, a trait gunpowder arms would keep for a long time.

 

From the early 14th century Chinese manuscript known as the Huo Long Jing, a passage refers to the first use of cast iron shell casings for gunpowder-filled cannon balls, fired by what the Chinese had termed the 'flying-cloud thunderclap eruptor' (fei yun pi-li pao):

 

The shells (phao) are made of cast iron, as large as a bowl and shaped like a ball. Inside they contain half a pound of 'magic' gunpowder (shen huo). They are sent flying towards the enemy camp from an eruptor (mu phao); and when they get there a sound like a thunder-clap is heard, and flashes of light appear. If ten of these shells are fired successfully into the enemy camp, the whole place will be set ablaze...[4]

 

Having an illuminator who is knowledgable of gunpowder ratios, Mat should be able to skip the firearm evolution process directly to high explosive powder for artillery with a fairly decent range.  Also, Mat would likely use explosive shells (having seen their effectiveness with the Dragon eggs) and stay away from solid shot.  I would predict a fairly quick evolution to the bronze cannons of the 16th/17th centuries known for excellent reliability, accuracy (when the crew is properly trained...no easy task) and durability (bronze is much more resistant to stress than cannons made of iron...problem is it costs 8-10 times as much)

[Quixotic]

Basically Mat has come up with very primitive gunpowder grenades and as for the cannon...

 

FROM WIKIPEDIA:

Fire lances", gunpowder-propelled arrows, were used in China from at least 1132. The first documented record of artillery with gunpowder propellent used on the battlefield was on January 28, 1132 when General Han Shizhong of the Song Dynasty used escalade and Huochong to capture a city in Fujian. In 1221, cast iron bombs thrown by hand, sling, and catapult were mentioned. Somewhere around 1249, the Chinese of the Song Dynasty began to load early gunpowder in the middle of thick bamboo as a projection firearm, firing clay pellets like a shotgun.

 

Around the time of the wars between the Mongols and the Song Dynasty (1268-1279), mortars with bronze tubes first appeared.[3] (However, the earliest certain example was dated 1332). Additionally, the Chinese and Mongols took up the use of "true" gunpowder instead of the slower-burning older mixture - which made this early cannon, known as the Huochong, more reliable and powerful. During wartime, the Chinese used the early gunpowder weapons in defence against the Mongols, mounting more than 3,000 bronze and iron casted cannons on the Great Wall of China. The weapon was later taken up by the Mongol conquerors, and also the Koreans. Many of the earliest weapons seem to primarily have functioned as psychological weapons, a trait gunpowder arms would keep for a long time.

 

From the early 14th century Chinese manuscript known as the Huo Long Jing, a passage refers to the first use of cast iron shell casings for gunpowder-filled cannon balls, fired by what the Chinese had termed the 'flying-cloud thunderclap eruptor' (fei yun pi-li pao):

 

The shells (phao) are made of cast iron, as large as a bowl and shaped like a ball. Inside they contain half a pound of 'magic' gunpowder (shen huo). They are sent flying towards the enemy camp from an eruptor (mu phao); and when they get there a sound like a thunder-clap is heard, and flashes of light appear. If ten of these shells are fired successfully into the enemy camp, the whole place will be set ablaze...[4]

 

Having an illuminator who is knowledgable of gunpowder ratios, Mat should be able to skip the firearm evolution process directly to high explosive powder for artillery with a fairly decent range.  Also, Mat would likely use explosive shells (having seen their effectiveness with the Dragon eggs) and stay away from solid shot.  I would predict a fairly quick evolution to the bronze cannons of the 16th/17th centuries known for excellent reliability, accuracy (when the crew is properly trained...no easy task) and durability (bronze is much more resistant to stress than cannons made of iron...problem is it costs 8-10 times as much)

 

 

 

I recall that there was a vision involving Matrim Cauthouns and Pins made out of man , as well as what sounds like gunpowder based munitions raining down on battle fields. Where was it I wonder? Perhaps its a fortaste of the carnage that Matrim Cauthon would inadverntly cause ( Possibily in Seanchan) after the Last Battle .

[Davian93]

I recall that there was a vision involving Matrim Cauthouns and Pins made out of man , as well as what sounds like gunpowder based munitions raining down on battle fields. Where was it I wonder?

 

That was a dream by Egwene I believe.

 

[ACOS: 10, Unseen Eyes, 202]

 

Mat sat on a night-shrouded hilltop, watching a grand Illuminator's display of fireworks, and suddenly his hand shot up, seized one of those bursting lights in the sky. Arrows of fire flashed from his clenched fist, and a sense of dread filled her. Men would die because of this. The world would change.

 

Was that what you were thinking of?

 

Or more likely it is this one...

 

[COT: 20, In the Night, 492-495]

Mat stood on a village green, playing at bowls [...] he was sharp and clear, dressed in a fine green coat and that wide-brimmed black hat [...] Rubbing the ball between his hands, he took a short run and casually rolled it across the smooth grass. All nine pins fell, scattered as if they had been kicked. Mat turned and picked up another ball, and the pins were back upright. No, there was a fresh set of pins. The old still lay where they had fallen. He hurled the ball again, a lazy underhanded bowl. And Egwene wanted to scream. The pins were not turned pieces of wood. They were men. [...] there were more new pins, new men, standing in orderly formation among the men lying sprawled on the ground as if dead. No, they were dead. Unconcerned, Mat bowled [...] Every one of those human pins had represented thousands of men. Of that she was certain. And an Illuminator was part of it [...] Still, it was only a possible future.

[Quixotic]

Yes , and there was a third occurance where Matrim Cauthon dreams of attempting to catch explosives while vast quantities continuously rain down on " massed pikes and charging horsemen." In the knife of Dreams( I believe it was in the chapter Dragons , and after Aldura demonstated a cannon prototype to Mat.)

[TaiSharRocklin]

I see a lot of folks talking about the Aiel's spear. They are right when they say they are based on the short stabbing spears used by the Zulu. The weapon was called an ikwla because of the similarity to the sound it produced when it was stabbed into and pulled out of an enemy. Many people also call it an assagai but that is actually the name of the full sized throwing spear the Zulu used before King Shaka invented the ikwla for melee combat.

[DojoToad]

I posted some pics in another thread I started of Aiel weapons I had a blacksmith make. Spears and a belt knife. Just my vision...  I’ll try to post a link. 

[DojoToad]

Aiel shield

https://imgur.com/sR7BZcF

https://imgur.com/MciFAL7

 

Aiel spears

https://imgur.com/2e2h0HU

https://imgur.com/DiImt4Q

 

Aiel Knife

https://imgur.com/eKcbrng

https://imgur.com/HgPeX0b

 

I had a blacksmith make the knife and spears, but I made the shield.