Follow the Bouncing Taim......One More Time

[cloglord]

Okay, as promised in the "I don't think Be'lal was meeting Ravhin" thread, here is the long awaited connect the dots between Be'lal, Demandred, Sammael, and Taim.

 

First lets talk about the similarities and rivalries among the above mentioned forsaken, (excluding Taim for the time being.)

 

Be'lal, Sammael, and Demandred all share the distinction of being generals under LTT in the war of power, all three, for reasons of their own went over to the shadow. All three were acclaimed as important generals, all hated LTT personally, and none of them got along with the others.

 

 

It has been mentioned in other theories, the beliefe that Demandred did not try and take over a throne of his own, becasue he was instead angling to become the overall military leader for the shadow. I don't think that this falls short of the mark, in fact, I believe that there was an overall military leader for the shadow chosen from almost the time when the Forsaken were released. I believe that leader to have been Be'lal. There has been quite alot of speculation about the clenched gauntlet w/lighting bolts sigil. It is most commonly referenced to Be'lal's coach in TDR, Sammael's throne in the forsaken meeting in TFoH, and lately in the epilouge to KoD's. What if this isn't a personal sigil, but is rather a mark of military rank? The mark of a general or more aptly the mark of THE general. This seems to be supported by the lesser ranks given to Taim's ashamen cronies. I don't remember who was who, but one was an attack leader, and had a clenched fist belt buckle, the other was a storm leader,(an allusion to the lightning bolts?) This would explain why Demandred and Be'lal would have been arguing in Perrin's TAR experience, and why it would take Ishmael's intervention to settle. If this is the case, then it would appear that Be'lal was chosen over Demandred, due to the use of the sigil in TDR. Upon Be'lal's death, the rank would then most likely go to either Sammael or Demandred. Since Sammael uses this sigil in his TAR meeting with Ravhin, Graendal, and Lanfear in TFoH, this certainly could mean that it was granted to Sammael, or that Sammael simply assumed the position inspite of Demandred, it could be that the two were both claiming it at this point. If there was some contention, as there likely would be without a clear Naeblis to intervene, it would explain the mutual dislike that Demandred and Sammael show for each other in their POV's. Personally, I think that the title of overall military commander is likely to be tied to how effectively one of these three generals can control the channeling forces of the Dark.

 

Lets just call this hypothetical military position the General. In TDR, Be'lal has exhibited some degree of influence within the BA, he knows who is in charge of the BA, and has commandeered a platoon of them for his own uses. Further, from this cabal of BA, he likely is aware of the plan to free Taim, and is potentially in a place to set up his own male channeling force. He is in a position to command one of the great nations, and half of the dreadlords, the BA, and is set up to control the other half of the dreadlords. He is the strongest militarily of all the forsaken up to this point, and by virtue of this has been granted the title of General.

 

By these criteria, Sammael would need to attempt to control the male dreadlords to attempt to wrest this position from Be'lal. Since Be'lal is attempting to whip up Tear against Illian, Sammael is likely preparing a defense against Be'lal, and this could include trying to come up with some channelers of his own. Namely Taim.

 

So, before we go any further, we should try and figure out exactly what Taim is. Luckers has proposed a theory that Taim was trained by Ishmael, others claim he was trained by others, or perhaps turned against his will by the 13 BA & Fades trick. Regardless of which theory you chose, Taim is clearly a DF, and is very likely Forsaken trained. It could be he was trained by ishy before the others were release, it could be that he was trained by Be'lal, Demandred, or Sammael during the 250 or so days between when he declared himself the dragon reborn and his capture. It could be that he was trained by Sammael or Demandred during the 341 days between his capture and his arrival in Camelyn. It could even be that he was trained by Dashiva during the 44 days between when Osangar was released and when Rand chose him as one of his personal ashaman. However you explain it, Taim was obviously the first choice as a non-forsaken leader of male dreadlords, and as such would have been a valuable pawn in any number of schemes.

 

If Taim is so valuable, who is controlling him at any given time? Personally I believe that Taim was trained by Ishmael, and was under his control prior to his capture at the end of TGH. With Ishmaels wounding at Falme, and Taim's capture, Ishmael probably commanded Alviarin to rescue Taim, and left it at that for the time being, chosing to focus on Rand, and delegate these less important matters. Maybe he even delgated them to Be'lal. This would seem to be supported by the fact that Ishmael was watching Be'lal closely enough to appear moments after his death to confront Rand. I suspect that Ishmael did not expect to die shortly after Be'lal however, which left Taim's rescue soley in the hands of the BA, and left Taim as a free agent after his release. A free agent that could deliver a great deal of military power to either Demandred or Sammael.

 

There has also been quite a bit of speculation about Demandred's involvement with the borderlander's and his specific involvement with the forthcoming 'darkness' associated with Davram Bashere. This speculation is based on the fact that we have seen nothing concrete and signifigant resulting from Demandred's influence, and we have also seen no proven actor behind the movement of nearly half of the borderland military away from the blight. I happen to agree with this speculation, and would further speculate that if Demandred is directing the borderlanders, he was the one who orchestrated Bashere's attempted capture of Taim. There are two things that I would point to in support of this. Davram Bashere is one of the great general with a widely held reputation, yet he used the offer of truce, to attempt to betray Taim, this seems out of character to me, since these sorts of truce agreements have tended to be made with the oath that only a DF would break. I think that this uncharacteristic behavior is possibly an indicator that Bashere, is one of Demandred's 'proxies'. The second indicator of Bashere's shadyness, comes from the Cooper timeline. According to it, Bashere, who claimed to be following Taim, showed up in Camelyn 37 days before Taim. The question I have to ask is how a person follows another one to a destination 37 days ahead of their quarry. This make me think that Bashere was in fact sent to catch Taim, but was sent by Demandred, not Tenobia. He was sent with the instruction to bring Taim to be controlled, not gentled.

 

This scenario would help me to understand another nagging question I've had, the mysterious change in behavior that Sammael exhibits in LoC. Around the same time that Taim is arriving in Camelyn and turing himself in for Rand's amnesty, Graendal is trying to manipulate Sammael into attacking and killing Rand. Graendal's POV seems to show that she is largely succesfull in pulling Sammael's strings, and accomplishing her manipulations. Yet at their next meeting, Graendal notices that all of the strings that normally motivated Sammael seemed as though they were cut. It is at this meeting that Sammael claims to have made a truce with Rand, and claims the title of Naeblis. This sudden change in Sammael's temperment can be explained by Taim as well. According to the cooper timeline 142 days elapsed between the time that Siuan recieves word of Taim's escape and his arrival in Camelyn. If Sammael managed to get to Taim first, it would explain the 37 day arrival delay, and could explain why Taim would lie about shaving his beard for the heat. If Sammael snagged Taim after his escape, and took him to Illian, it would be a rather severe change in temperature, severe enough to cause the man to shave his beard, until Sammael could train him to ignore the heat. This would explain the sudden change in Sammael's temperment as well. The Cooper timeline puts the first Sammy/Graendel meeting 3 days after Taim shows up in Camelyn, the second is 12 days later. If Sammy had captured and claimed Taim as his own, he would be taking a pretty big gamble sending him to Rand, it would likely make his tense, irritable, and prone to cursing, much as he was at that first meeting. If that gamble paid off by placing a powerful pawn close to rand, and making an allegiance with Rand, it would explain Sammael's claim of an alliance, and explain his sudden surety that Rand would not attack him, because by controlling Taim, he would be controlling the most dangerous part of Rand's military. It fits rather well, I think.

 

Of course Sammael's death occurs after Moridin's rebirth, but before his naming as Naeblis. NOtice the attention that Moridin pays to Sammael during this time. He notes, that he is unsure if Sammael is lying about being named Naeblis, he thinks that a claimed alliance between Rand and Sammael is surely dangerous and false, he shows up in Ebou Dar at the same times that Sammael is there attempting to claim the cache of angreal et al, and he is there in shadar logoth when Rand tries to kill Sammael. Clearly, Sammy is the big dog in a post Be'lal/post ishmael world, and Moridin is paying close attention to what the big dog is doing, presumably so that he can knock him off, and become the big dog again.

 

Once, Sammy is gone, Taim becomes a free agent again, right? It would appear that both Moridin and Demandred have been trying to influence him. Taim, Demandred, and Moridin all gave similar orders to the Ashaman that went to Far Madding after Rand, it would appear that as of KoD's that Moridin has claimed taim as his own, given the dominating colors of Taim's throne room. It is unclear to me, if the fist and lightning bolts on Taim's door indicate that he hase been given rank as a General, if Moridin has claimed that rank for himself, and if Moridin has granted the title to Demandred and placed Taim under him. I really couldn't say.

 

So, As Egeanin Tamarath would say, I have woven moonbeams and happenstance together to make a noose for myself, have at it.

_________________

[Sab]

Still say Taim became a DF after going to Rand, mainly becuase I doubt the Forsaken would allow him to give a seal of the dark ones prison to Rand.  Especially with how hard they have been tasked to find them.

 

As for Demandred, I can only remember two hints pointing to his plan\location.

 

First was Sammael saying 'events in the south had Demandred's mark all over it" and the second I believe was in Winters Heart where it was said Demandred and Aran'gar were responsible for looking after Rand.

[Triggy]

Very good theory, certainly seems to fit together with the facts as you state them. Particularly I like the linking together of the fist and lightning bolts motifs.

[DemandredFO]

I have to say I like the theory and as for what you say of Bashere it could be true because I think we have to have at least one other character everyone likes turn out to be a darkfriend.  I mean we had Ingtar and Gawyn unknowingly, we think, helped Mesaana take down Siuan but we need another good guy darkfriend.

 

That's my 2 cents

[Nelal Hurcran]

If Bashere is a DF, then Faile needs to be the one who kills him (you can't honestly think he'd survive that, do you?), just so she has at leats one redeeming act in the books.

[wvlr]

If Bashere is a DF, then Faile needs to be the one who kills him (you can't honestly think he'd survive that, do you?), just so she has at leats one redeeming act in the books.

 

 

I always thought that suicide was the only redeeming act she could contribute to the series. ;D ;) 8)

[lou]

what makes you think that taim wasnt a darkfriend all along? before the forsaken were freed.taim has held off madness much longer than anyone living. maybe that is because he has been channeling untainted saidin all along.

concider,LOC: a new arrival

"at least fifteen years older than himself;thirtyfive then, or a few years more at most"

"rand had clung to sanity for close to two years so far. yet, in front of him stood a man who had managed it for ten or fifteen"

later, when moridan gives the command to kill rand (and bring all his stuff to moridan) it is curious to the ashaman that they had also recieved the same orders from demandred and taim. as if the three are all on the same level. if ishmael or demandred had issued that command to taim personally, then why bother to voice it again to the asha?

IMO i think it likely that taim has, at the very least, been a darkfriend since he was a very young adult.

[Majsju]

Taim is in his late 20s, not around 35.

 

http://p079.ezboard.com/Dragon-Con-Book-Signing-Reports/ftheorylandfrm30.showMessage?topicID=4.topic

[lou]

it is unfortunate that i must take my information from the books themselves, as opposed to a board posting by third or fourth hand.

[cloglord]

Lou, you have a point, but that quote is essentially transcription.  You wouldn't doubt the readback of a court trancriptionist would you?

[lou]

it's not merely transcription of that sort, it is second hand from a conversation that none of us were a party to, given over to a third party (the boards). i have heard retractions before given over what was sopposedly said at a signing.if it were mentioned in RJ's blog, or question of the week, it would be a different story entirely.

[Majsju]

Ah yes, Tamyrlins post at one of the largest WOT communities is the same as if a random bloke was posting in his own private blog...I bet he wasn't even there! *snickers*

 

 

[lou]

that is just small, petty, and rude...as usual. there have been retractions (some RJ had made to retract comments he himself had made) and of course rumor and misinformation.there is argument on the "definitive answers" thread on the wording of an answer that RJ gave. it could be interpreted either way. none of this is as far-fetched as some of the "theories" presented here, but it is not neccessary to act like a child over any of it.

Robert Jordan's Blog Oct 4th, 2005:

"For Linda Sedai, Rand misjudges Taim’s age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet.  He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted — along with other reasons — and that has a wearing effect on anyone.  Now that he has recovered, he doesn’t look so old"

[Caramoore]

Well as for the seals, I think Taim gave Rand the Seal because he knew Rand wouldn't break it. I think the DO doesn't want the seals broke early when he is not as prepared as he would be if they just wore out and broke on there on.

 

And your theory on Taim is why I say he's the one who killed Asmo cause I think he's been "Dark" a long time  ;D but let's not drag Asmo into this, he had been through enough...

[Majsju]

Robert Jordan's Blog Oct 4th, 2005:

"For Linda Sedai, Rand misjudges Taim’s age because when they meet, you might say Taim has been rode hard and put away wet.  He has just finished a long and difficult flight to reach Caemlyn, the one place where he might find refuge instead of being hunted — along with other reasons — and that has a wearing effect on anyone.  Now that he has recovered, he doesn’t look so old"

 

And that contradicts Tamyrlins post just how?

 

Oh wait, it doresn't. It elaborates.

You don't think that on a forum where several members where present duringt the signing, someone just might protest if something is reported that was not actually said? That's more than a little rude towards Theoryland, a site that is a good friend of Dragonmount.

[lou]

you are just sad. i said that i wouldnt trust something that had been passed around, if it contradicts what is written in the books, why wouldnt i? i never said anything about theoryland or any of the people there, those are your words. there have been many postings and misinformation and recantations over the years, you know this as well as any. i looked to the Blog, and that was all that was there, nothing as definitive as the answer you posted. taim cleaned up, got a good nights sleep and looked a sight better. it doesnt say late 20s or late thirties for that matter. i just think in that instance trust to the series itself, thats all.