Sexism (split from book forums)

[Kaffa]

I don't mean to be rude, but why is it considered sexist for a man to value the safety of females over that of men. I will admit there are exceptions to every situation, but 9 times out of 10 a man is physically stronger and more capable of defending themselves than a woman. It seems silly that we view this as a matter of social value or merit, when it is in fact simply a representation of only one difference between the sexes. For thousands of years, men have cared for and protected their mothers, sisters, wives and daughters. Every man worth the air he breaths would lay his life down without thought for a woman in need. And for that men are considered sexist?

 

Call it what you will, but the death of a woman is a far sadder thing that that of a man. Men who are fueled by testosterones and and loyalty, are somehow more suited to violence. I have had the misfortune of having seen many people postmortem, and the saddest is always the girls...... Then again I am a man so what do I know.....  ;)

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Way to cop out there, BranFire. ;) Instead of actually saying something meaningful in defense of your beliefs, you simply refer him to a psychology book.

 

I'm not saying I disagree with you're views, by any means. I just think it is a lot better to personally defend your views than to have someone else do it for you.

 

[sarcasm]I'm about to go pick up a copy of "Psychology and You," from the nearest Barnes and Noble now, and flip through the thousand pages or so in order to see what you were talking about.[/sarcasm]

 

No really though, I think its best if you state your argument here. You should know full well that no one is going to research psychology just to refute you.

 

By the way, sorry if you find this impolite, but I just thought it was necessary.

 

EDIT: Also, it is useless to get into a debate about whose death is more sad. Sadness is subjective. So what is sad for you may be less sad or more sad or not sad at all to the next guy.

[drunkengrizzly]

i hate to be that guy, but this is getting old.  when did dragonmount become a banner to be waved by militant feminazis?  if you don't like the books, don't read the books.

[Cadsuane]

Drunken Grizzly - She's hardly a "militant feminazi", she never said she doesn't like the books, and she has every right to create ONE thread out of several hundred (thousand?) to discuss this aspect of them. To use your own thought process, if you dont' want to read about it, then you shouldn't read the thread. It's not hard to avoid.

[BrainFireBob]

Way to cop out there, BranFire. ;) Instead of actually saying something meaningful in defense of your beliefs, you simply refer him to a psychology book.

 

I'm not saying I disagree with you're views, by any means. I just think it is a lot better to personally defend your views than to have someone else do it for you.

 

There's copping out, and then there's politely telling someone they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

 

I'm not going to distill years of research into a post to someone that obviously has made up their mind and doesn't have the background knowledge to create a frame of reference for what I'm saying. Nor am I going to engage in a pissing contest over other people's ignorance. Frankly, I didn't care to bother, and no amount of mudslinging credibility attacks is liable to make me change my mind.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Way to cop out there, BranFire. ;) Instead of actually saying something meaningful in defense of your beliefs, you simply refer him to a psychology book.

 

I'm not saying I disagree with you're views, by any means. I just think it is a lot better to personally defend your views than to have someone else do it for you.

 

There's copping out, and then there's politely telling someone they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

 

I'm not going to distill years of research into a post to someone that obviously has made up their mind and doesn't have the background knowledge to create a frame of reference for what I'm saying. Nor am I going to engage in a pissing contest over other people's ignorance. Frankly, I didn't care to bother, and no amount of mudslinging credibility attacks is liable to make me change my mind.

 

Why come here into this thread to debate if you aren't willing to debate? By the way, as I said in the last line of my post, which you so conveniently did not quote, I didn't intend to insult you or anything, I just thought it needed to be said by someone.

 

Actually, no matter what you saw what I said as, as long as it got you to say what you believe, it was worthwhile.

 

...and then there's politely telling someone they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

lol. That seems somewhat like an oxymoron to me.

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Women have greater aptitudes (and room for improvement) than men in certain areas and men have greater aptitudes (and room for improvement) than women in other areas. And men and women both have equal aptitudes in still other areas.

 

But man or woman, we're of equal value.

[walkerhound]

Somehow I doubt "important" refers to: we need the women around so they can have lots of babies

 

Well...keeping in mind that "lot's of babies" is basically the deference between having a future and not (from a species, societal, national ect ect aspect).  Then ya i would say it's pretty dang important.  the thing is that while ya need men and woman both to have babies (takes two to tango and all that) the women’s part of the equation is and well probably always be much more...time consuming  ;D.

 

i think deep down a lot of this sentiment of men dieing for/instead of women is because of men ultimately being the "disposable" gender.  If nothing else form a biological standpoint, the number of healthy female’s need to have a stable (to say nothing of a growth potential) population is much higher than the number needed of healthy males.  You lose x% of men in a year to what ever dangers are out there no big deal, ya'll make 'em up.  You lose X% of woman in a year....you got a problem.

 

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

Just because something has always been done some way doesn't mean it is right. I think using the whole "historically it's always been like that" rationale can get old. It's the same excuse lots of people used to continue slavery, to give voting voting rights only to the rich and elite, to oppress lots of people and do many other horrible things.

 

 

I believe women and men are equal in intelligence and other qualities, yet men have always been viewed as the "protector". When safety is concerned, the father figure usually steps in to defend his family.

 

The father steps in to defend the family? Would any mother protect her children less?

 

 

 

i think deep down a lot of this sentiment of men dieing for/instead of women is because of men ultimately being the "disposable" gender.   If nothing else form a biological standpoint, the number of healthy females need to have a stable (to say nothing of a growth potential) population is much higher than the number needed of healthy males.   You lose x% of men in a year to what ever dangers are out there no big deal, ya'll make 'em up.   You lose X% of woman in a year....you got a problem.

 

Interesting theory, but I disagree. The men would die for women because they're more...disposable? Nah. Human life is human life.

[Breaker of Light]

i will totally respect a women that can defend herself, like in the army and stuff. But since almost all of us have been raised with the tought that men are the defender, it still seems weird to me that a women would be in the army. I don't have any problem killing a women if she's trying to kill me. mmmmmmmm...fresh meat

[The Dragon Reborn]

Interestingly enough, the idea of the men being the 'protectors' is in our DNA. In times of war, the percentage of males born increases drastically...

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Actually, I always thought that when men came home from war, they were anxious to see their wives, and well, you do the math...surplus population. For instance, the baby boom which ocurred after World War II.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I have had a pet theory that our world would be matriarchal too, perhaps, if not for the Catholic Church. They suppressed and rejected the ideas of chivalry, fearing that it would bring about a return in reverence of the female that would eventually lead to renewed worship of the old pagan fertility deities.

[The Dragon Reborn]

Actually, I always thought that when men came home from war, they were anxious to see their wives, and well, you do the math...surplus population. For instance, the baby boom which ocurred after World War II.

Well what I mean is that the ratio of men born as opposed to women increases. ie

If normally the ratio of boys born vs. girls born is say 50:50, it would change to something like 70:30 in the favour of boys.....to replace the natural 'protectors' that have been killed.

[Mistress alDebaw]

I simply adore a chivalrous man! Hmm Hmm.  ;)

 

Oh, I don't consider myself, as a woman, less than a man. I just happen to be stronger in some areas than a lot of men. Of course that's a two way street, isn't it"? But then again I'll be the first to admit I'm old fashioned.  ;D

[DragonSpawn]

I have had a pet theory that our world would be matriarchal too, perhaps, if not for the Catholic Church. They suppressed and rejected the ideas of chivalry, fearing that it would bring about a return in reverence of the female that would eventually lead to renewed worship of the old pagan fertility deities.

 

    I call bullsh*t on that post dripping with prejudice and bigotry. The world would be matriarchal if not for the RCC? I would like some of the stuff you are smoking. Or is it that without the RCC all nations including India, China, Japan, Korea, Saudi Arabia, Northern Africa, Eastern Africa as well as quite a few other places would be matriarchal? Somehow I severely doubt this, seeing as these places aren't even christian yet still seem to be on the top list of most sexist nations. So forgive me for the outlandish claim that the two may be unrelated.

 

      Also if Northern Europe had kept it's Norse Pagan belief I don't think the world would be a too much better place. Considering even Hitler and various Nazi's attempted to bring Norse Paganism back into the mainstream to the German people, preferring how Norse Paganism glorified war, pillage, brutal revenge and complete destruction of enemies without mercy,..whereas christianity asked to "turn the other cheek," which fit less with the National Socialist agenda, on top of Jesus being a jew. But I suppose in your eyes the Vikings were super matriarchs because they were Pagans,..regardless of their reputation as being one of histories most fearsome and brutal killers reknown for their tendency to plunder, rape, and murder whole villages down to the last child,..then burning every building. It was arguably with the introduction to christianity that the Danish people calmed down their ethnic cleansing mania, or at least the two events are conspicously close.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Whoa, Nelly. Relax, DragonSpawn. You do realize I said that lightheartedly, don't you? It's almost verbatim of what the DaVinci Code says. Of course, you can't hear my tone of voice because all my words are written, so you wouldn't know.

 

 

[lou]

wow...chivalry, feminazis (i nearly choked on that one), the catholic conspiracy, women in the military, sperm donors, the mother complex (freud himself had it the worst)...this thread has everything!

really, noone needs to read psycology today to know that the list rand keeps on the women who died for him is unhealthy at best.

 

[Mashiara O Aan.a--ein]

First...*gives DragonSpawn some very calming chamomile tea, which I often have to use myself*  ;)

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Next...

There is nothing a man can do that a woman cannot.

 

Father Children. Done. See also, produce sperm and grow facial hair(except in cases of women with abnormal testosterone levels).

 

 

ha Ha HA (very sarcastically). I most obviously was NOT referring to the ability to produce sperm cells.

 

====================================================================================================

Well what I mean is that the ratio of men born as opposed to women increases. ie

If normally the ratio of boys born vs. girls born is say 50:50, it would change to something like 70:30 in the favour of boys.....to replace the natural 'protectors' that have been killed.

 

Hmmm...more boys are born because the protectors have to be replenished? Not to be a great skeptic or anything, but doesn't that sound a little far-fetched?

[BrainFireBob]

Only to someone unfamiliar with the actual numbers- this is an observed phenomena in all mammalian species, so far as I'm aware. However, more mainstream anthropologists put forward that it's because male infants are more susceptible to disease, etc., than female, to ensure a continued breeding population.

 

Study any primate. Including humans. Females are more necessary to maintain the species- only a few males need survive. Hence males being competitive- it's over breeding rights. There's a lot of speculation that that is the reason women live longer than men, in fact. It's all interesting stuff.

[Darkness Incarnated]

DragonSpawn, I get the point you're trying to make, but I still would like to know what stuff you're smoking for claiming that those places you named are not Christian. I can't speak for others, but whoever told you that people in Eastern Africa are not Christians?

[DragonSpawn]

DragonSpawn, I get the point you're trying to make, but I still would like to know what stuff you're smoking for claiming that those places you named are not Christian. I can't speak for others, but whoever told you that people in Eastern Africa are not Christians?

 

  I think all nations in East Africa are mostly muslim, with the exception of Ethiopia which is 50/50, and Sudan which has a 20% minority or so? Since I doubt the peoples of Somalia, Egypt, Tanzania, Sudan, Eritrea, Djibouti are mostly Christian in their makeup?

[Darkness Incarnated]

DragonSpawn, do a little search--that's what Google is for--on the countries of East Africa and their religions, and you'll realize how wrong you are. Basically what you did was generalize your perceptions, and generalization is often a flawed method. I prefer not to go into the details, this thread is about Rand and his so-called sexism, not religion in East Africa.

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Right. If we want to debate the religious preferences of East Africa, or whatever, we should debate it in the General Discussion board, rather than in the Wheel of Time Discussion board.

 

Also, Dragonspawn, I sent you a pm...I don't know if you received it or not, but if you did, please tell me so.

[CorenYi]

ha Ha HA (very sarcastically). I most obviously was NOT referring to the ability to produce sperm cells.

 

Nevertheless, it disproves your claim that there was nothing a man could do that a woman cannot. On the simplest biological level we are different. There is nothing wrong with accepting those differences, focusing on our strengths and using them together to create functional working groups that cover the other's weaknesses. It's biologically what we were made for.

 

I guess everybody just ignored my comment about Chivalry being sexist AGAINST men? *smiles* oh well, people often ignore what they can't argue with.