Verin and her 70 year project

[Jonn]

[Quote:

 

 

those are the only incidents i can think of that seem relative.

 

My interest in the relationship is more based on the fact that the inability of healing to totally fix Rand's side seem to be associated with the fact that each injury deposited a different type of "evil" into his side and not the actual weopons used. Simply put was Verin's injury not totally healed because she was cut by one of the same type of "evils" that Rand was?  This is especially intriguing because will are told that a cut from fain's dagger is always fatal.(Mat absorbed the taint in the knife because of his proximity to it not because he was cut). Now, that the Dragon Reborn is not necessarily killed by the taint might be expl;ained by his role in the pattern or is taverenness, but why would Verin survive a cut from such evil?  My speculation is not spported by any evidence that comes to mind and I have no theories as to how this fact is important, but something about it tickles the back of my mind.

 

 

Jonn, how is this fact(the inability of Verin's injury to be totally healed by the power) intrigrated into your "time anamolies theory"?

 

 

Verin's injury could be from what you say, a type of evil like a tainted weapon, or something like Mashadar or a ter'angreal...

 

A scar could form if Healing is not applied before a wound heals naturally. She could have been caught in a situation where Healing was not available, held prisoner, unable to channel.

 

There are several possibilities.

[Caramoore]

Could Lanfear have posed as Moiraine and told Verin to look after Rand? She could have used Illusion, Compulsion, a combination. See at this point Lanfear wants Rand to reach Falme. She wants him to overthrow Ishamael. She wants him to become the Dragon. She needs someone who channels around Rand so she can conceal it if she needs to "help" with things like portal stones or the like. She can still remain hidden as Selene or just stay out of sight. It's been a while since I've read The Great Hunt, so bear with me if I haven't thought every detail out. What do you think? Possible?

Not trying to shoot it down, but do we even know if Lanfear was free of the Bore at this point in the series. Sorry if I'm sounding like an idiot but I haven't done a re-read in a while and I'm too lazy to look it up... ;)

[CUBAREY]

Could Lanfear have posed as Moiraine and told Verin to look after Rand? She could have used Illusion, Compulsion, a combination. See at this point Lanfear wants Rand to reach Falme. She wants him to overthrow Ishamael. She wants him to become the Dragon. She needs someone who channels around Rand so she can conceal it if she needs to "help" with things like portal stones or the like. She can still remain hidden as Selene or just stay out of sight. It's been a while since I've read The Great Hunt, so bear with me if I haven't thought every detail out. What do you think? Possible?

Not trying to shoot it down, but do we even know if Lanfear was free of the Bore at this point in the series. Sorry if I'm sounding like an idiot but I haven't done a re-read in a while and I'm too lazy to look it up... ;)quote[/]

 

First, theory seems possible, don't have enough facts to actually have a real strong opinion either way, but its certainly possible. Especially as a back-up plan in case she was unsuccesful in tempting Rand during their stay in the alternate universe.

 

Second, Lanfear appears to Rand when he accidentally triggers the Portal Stones in his sleep. So Lanfear definately was free in time to have such a conversation with Verin.

[BrainFireBob]

We can't always follow strict legal doctrine. We can't always see subjective content as a focus to "score points". I'm not in law school nor do I plan to be. If that is what you're here to practice, I can't say that I really like that idea...

Robert's hypothesis about Verin's lie is based on what is standard about Aes Sedai. They twist words and promises such that as long as they believe what they say is the truth they can say it.

Well, by that point in The Great Hunt, we didn't know that much. We didn't know that they could be physically hurt by lying. We didn't know that they had to trick themselves into believing. We were simply lead to believe that an Aes Sedai would rather be vague in order to make room to conceal something that could be thought of as a lie. We didn't know anything about the physical repercussions involved, the self-delusion trick.

 

 

To the first part:

 

The proof becomes relevant when we try and present our beliefs as facts, and free speech does not come without consequences.

 

To the second:

 

As I recall, the fact of the Three Oaths, and the fact they were technically inviolate, was already established- at a minimum, by the glossaries, by this point in the story. So yes, we do know that it's inviolable. We don't know about how or why, but we do know that they can't speak a literal untruth with intent to deceive (logic lets us deduce that from Siuan's colorful language). So yes, we do know they can't lie by that point in the story.

 

In general:

 

Jordan structured one of the most logical, consistent stories I've ever seen in my years of reading fantasy. He even came up with an in-universe reason for Deus ex Machina, he was so insistent on being consistent and thorough. This means that given his story, we can often work backwards through the logic- once one does so, one begins to see just how much his scientific training dictated his structure. Everything for a reason.

 

 

[cloglord]

Could Lanfear have posed as Moiraine and told Verin to look after Rand? She could have used Illusion, Compulsion, a combination. See at this point Lanfear wants Rand to reach Falme. She wants him to overthrow Ishamael. She wants him to become the Dragon. She needs someone who channels around Rand so she can conceal it if she needs to "help" with things like portal stones or the like. She can still remain hidden as Selene or just stay out of sight. It's been a while since I've read The Great Hunt, so bear with me if I haven't thought every detail out. What do you think? Possible?

 

Possible?  Yes.  Probable? No. We know that Selene is perfectly capable of spiriting Rand off to do whatever she wants, and that she is certainly capable of filling the role of teacher, by claiming that she "read it in a book somewhere."  I have a fabulous imagination, but even I can't think of a reason why Lanfear would act that way.

 

Verin is clearly a case which one has to think outside the norm to even approach figuring out.

 

Moiraine, who is herself, an exceptional Aes Sedai.

 

She [Moraine] would mention it, call attention to it because she is actually startled that Verin could have possibly lied.

 

This is pretty weak, in the space of two paragraphs you make the argument that the actions of a wierd Aes Sedai aren't predictable, and then proceed to try and predict what Moraine would do.

 

Listen, I hear what you are trying to say.  Why are we trying to logically discect a work of art, of creativity?  Cubbarey might be a lawyer, but I'm an artist, and I don't see an incongruity in what we are doing.  In fact, art has to be one of the most discussed and discected subjects there is after politics and religion.  I think what you are doing is appreciating art, and allowing it to fuel your creativity, while most of the rest of us are trying to understand the art that we appreciate.  Neither is wrong, both have their place, but I think that in this case, you are looking to get something from this discussion that you aren't likely to get.  That said, I agree with you, the Wheel of Time is a masterwork, and I predict that I will be astounded by it until well after the publishing of the last book.  That sense of wonderment is priceless, but it doesn't fulfill my curiosity about Verin.

 

I think that maybe we aren't being clear enough in the way that we use our words.  When I see the word, "proof"  it communicates to me an attempt at proving, or in other words, a belief that you are correct.  Since we are of nessecity discussing things that are not provable, then I think that this is the incorrect word.  I see no problem with using evidence in support of a theory, but once, it becomes proof, it stakes a claim to the correctness of that viewpoint.  I think that the most we can get out of any debate on these theories is to make a strong argument, and try to be convincing.  "Winning," is an impossibility here.  Take for instance the old Taimandred debate.  It used to be hotly contested on these boards, but when WH disproved this theory, did the Taimandred discussions stop entirely?  It was not until RJ weighed in and closed the issue for good, that the debate was "won," and it certainly wasn't decided by the use of "proof."

 

So now that we have firmly established the existence of two entirely seperate threads, going simulateously, lets please try to stick to the topic at hand.  While reading the last several posts an idea occured to me that might help to unmuddy the waters here a little.  We are all agreed that Verin is a mysterious character.  We all seem to be interested in different aspects of that mystery, so lets make a list of all the unexplained Verinisms, that intrique us.  I'll start.

 

(These first few are ones raised by the FAQ.)

 

1.Verin's lie.  Is it more than simple Aes Sedai word twisting, is it compulsion, why did RJ make it so obvious?

2.  What's in Coriannin's notes?

3. What's up with Verin in the 2 rivers, why does she warn Perrin about Alanna?  Why doesn't she tip the group off about Luc?

(the rest come from us.)

4.  Why didn't her scar from TAR heal properly?

5.  Does she have some abnormal connections to time/timetravel?

6.  How does she know to go to the 2 rivers in the first place?

7.  What is her 70 year project?

8.  What was her 70 year old mistake?

9.  Why is she outlawed in Far Madding?

10.  Why does she know about a portal stone in the waste?  Is it the one in Rhuidean?

11.  Why/How did she get her angreal?

12.  How did she catch up to Ingtar and Co.?

13.  Who was the man that she tried her compulsion on?

14.  Why does she seem to like novices so much?

15.  Does she have a network or E & E's

16.  Why doesn't she know who Isam is?

17.  Where did she run off to at the end of KoD's?

 

I have a possible answer to Cubberey's question about Verin's scar.  We know that if a wound is not attented to quickly enough, then it won't heal correctly, and we know that time flows differently in TAR.  Further we know that TAR is very malleable.  Stray thoughts or nightmares can effect reality in negative ways.  What if Verin got wounded, then inadvertently infected it, tried to heal it using TAR, etc, and managed to screw up the normal process. What if she got wounded early on, left an hour later in TAR, and found out that she had actually been sleeping for 2 days?   

[Jonn]

We can't always follow strict legal doctrine. We can't always see subjective content as a focus to "score points". I'm not in law school nor do I plan to be. If that is what you're here to practice, I can't say that I really like that idea...

Robert's hypothesis about Verin's lie is based on what is standard about Aes Sedai. They twist words and promises such that as long as they believe what they say is the truth they can say it.

Well, by that point in The Great Hunt, we didn't know that much. We didn't know that they could be physically hurt by lying. We didn't know that they had to trick themselves into believing. We were simply lead to believe that an Aes Sedai would rather be vague in order to make room to conceal something that could be thought of as a lie. We didn't know anything about the physical repercussions involved, the self-delusion trick.

 

 

To the first part:

 

The proof becomes relevant when we try and present our beliefs as facts, and free speech does not come without consequences.

 

I don't think you really understood my point about that. I never said that freedom of speech comes without consequences. If that's what you think I was saying, then you've misunderstood me.

 

As for proof bringing facts...When the question has no given answer, you cannot rely on a hypothesis to become fact. You may partially solve your initial question, and the best you can come up with is a THEORY.

 

To go so far as to regard your OWN theory as fact...that my friend is pompous and self-important to such a degree that it generally gets on the nerves of most people.

 

So to does the attempt to make your theory canon, fact. In this case, where much about Verin is hidden from us, naturally, nothing we can postulate here can go beyond that point, that we have theories of varying credibility.

 

Proof can determine credibility in this case, certainly, but there still are intangibles and nuance involved. And as we are all voicing an opinion on a piece of art, literature...sometimes aesthetic values are just as important.

 

 

 

To the second:

 

As I recall, the fact of the Three Oaths, and the fact they were technically inviolate, was already established- at a minimum, by the glossaries, by this point in the story. So yes, we do know that it's inviolable. We don't know about how or why, but we do know that they can't speak a literal untruth with intent to deceive (logic lets us deduce that from Siuan's colorful language). So yes, we do know they can't lie by that point in the story.

 

Not disputing that, but we did not know the nuances of that bind. We did not understand the consequences or the details of HOW an Aes Sedai would work around the Oath other than she could be vague or use semantic language. We knew nothing about their own psychological process, we just knew that an Aes Sedai would try to manipulate someone else's perception.

 

In general:

 

Jordan structured one of the most logical, consistent stories I've ever seen in my years of reading fantasy. He even came up with an in-universe reason for Deus ex Machina, he was so insistent on being consistent and thorough. This means that given his story, we can often work backwards through the logic- once one does so, one begins to see just how much his scientific training dictated his structure. Everything for a reason.

 

I don't disagree with that, but science always works with the element of what is unknown. It works under the precept that even things that are regarded as PROOFS have nuance, have variables.

 

What is light? What is energy? What determines life?

 

You could write pages and pages with proof and evidence, case studies to scientifically examine these questions, but it is unfathomable that someone would be able to truly answer these questions with the ultimate understanding. If someone did it would be so indistinguishable from any language a human would know, that it generally would be useless to most people.

 

What an artist does is try to relate complexity on a level that lets people, with intelligence, start on a path of their own, to make sense of big questions that they pose. Cause the fact is, their ideas are simply theories as well.

 

 

[World_of_Wheel_of_Time]

I think what Jonn's saying is that we can't assume anything...

 

In science when something is proved to be true over and over again, it's classified as a THEORY... This means it's generally taken to be true by the scientific community... However, if anyone is paying attention to the scientific papers (I just heard about this last month) there are some scientists that are about to prove Einstein's Theory of Relativity by making light travel faster than the speed of light (I know it's confusing, just bear with me).

 

Now the Theory of Relativity was one of Einstein's major breakthroughs. Most had believed the Theory to be a staple in the world of science. But now some unknown scientists (that are not nearly as amazing as Einstein was) are going to prove him wrong...

 

Now if you don't get my point here it is: nothing is proven through science. Theories are accepted but not perfect... So stop using science as an example...

 

Anyways, as far as the lawyer thought process goes, that's great. I'm sure everyone has heard of Sherlock Holmes, he uses his superior logical skills and intelligence to solve all of the cases he gets. He's a classic case of using clues that are barely uncovered to prove himself correct. Now his thought process may be like a lawyer (logic, science, whatever), but was anyone never surprised by the turnout of all of the Sherlock Holmes stories? It's not a matter of the clues not being there, or false trails, it's usually because of misinterpretation.

 

Now where I'm going with this is this: we as the people are not perfect. We do not know what's going to happen in WoT. We may speculate through the clues given, but as I've proved above (sorry about that word), speculation is just that: speculation... We don't know what's going to happen...

 

Now Jonn has said earlier that the plot twists and surprises were part of the book naturally and that we have to be open to new possibilites. I agree with this, however much someone believes themselves to be correct they also have to understand that they may be wrong. You have to understand this too Jonn.  ;D

 

RAW handled this the wrong way, sparking off another argument about something totally different from the actual purpose of this thread. He said that Jonn's idea was too convoluted (I think), now who're you to say that Jonn's ideas are too complicated? Is your name Robert Jordan? No, and even if you were, you'd maybe consider what Jonn said, and PM him back saying "that's interesting, we'll see what happens."

 

Now where I'm going with my three points is this: everything can be wrong, the most solid theories can be proven wrong. You have to be open to your own failure, and the possibilities of others. Do not make others seem dumb saying that their ideas are too complicated, convoluted, crazy, roundabout, not scientifically correct, whatever...

[World_of_Wheel_of_Time]

Personally I believe that Jonn's theories are a bit of a stretch. Possible, but not probably to going to happen... If the author of AMoL decides to create a good book, he's going to have to break the boundaries of expectation, and create a ending that no one would suspect could happen.

 

My ideal finale would be a combination of complications and simplicity. A mix between the "overcomplicated" theory, and a "simple" ending. With the simple seeming on the outside, but when you dig deeper, you realize that the author had thought it through thoroughly and completely and made it seem simple while the undercurrents were extremely hard to navigate through.

 

WOAH, I've just realized how far off topic I've gotten... Sorry, I'll just leave you guys with these thoughts.

 

Jonn seems to take his idea's seriously, and I suggest everyone else do too.

RAW also does this, so consider his opinion carefully too...

[Jonn]

I agree with this, however much someone believes themselves to be correct they also have to understand that they may be wrong. You have to understand this too Jonn.  ;D

 

 

I do understand this. Just for the record, I always work off of the preamble thought that I could be wrong, and that this is a mere possibility...I like to go fish out in the deep waters if you haven't noticed. You can catch big fish out there and it's more fun for me.

 

I don't do this lightly though. You go out in deep waters, you could drown, so I do take it seriously. It would be insulting if I were just here to throw non-sensical ideas out there just to jumble up the discussion. For the most part I feel I have posed real questions and that I haven't been wasting everyone's time.

 

My aim is to be thought provoking, challenging perhaps, but I do this for enjoyment of new ideas, and to share them with people who love these books as much as I do. I grow tired of old ideas quickly, and hey, that may be a flaw in me, but that's just me. I'm not here to insult people or to make myself important, ok. Please bear this in mind.

[Jonn]

Could Lanfear have posed as Moiraine and told Verin to look after Rand? She could have used Illusion, Compulsion, a combination. See at this point Lanfear wants Rand to reach Falme. She wants him to overthrow Ishamael. She wants him to become the Dragon. She needs someone who channels around Rand so she can conceal it if she needs to "help" with things like portal stones or the like. She can still remain hidden as Selene or just stay out of sight. It's been a while since I've read The Great Hunt, so bear with me if I haven't thought every detail out. What do you think? Possible?

 

Possible?  Yes.  Probable? No. We know that Selene is perfectly capable of spiriting Rand off to do whatever she wants, and that she is certainly capable of filling the role of teacher, by claiming that she "read it in a book somewhere."  I have a fabulous imagination, but even I can't think of a reason why Lanfear would act that way.

 

I hardly believe that Lanfear thought that she could teach Rand enough about saidin to be useful. Her solve for that was to get Asmodean to agree to teach him, but as we saw Asmodean  had his own ideas.

 

Still, she does appear in The Great Hunt as Selene, from what I recall.

 

I do believe that a few of your questions ask about how Verin could track Ingtar and such, Lanfear close by using Compulsion to use her as a hound...that could be an explanation.

 

 

[Cybertrolloc]

(These first few are ones raised by the FAQ.)

 

1.Verin's lie.  Is it more than simple Aes Sedai word twisting, is it compulsion, why did RJ make it so obvious?

2.  What's in Coriannin's notes?

3. What's up with Verin in the 2 rivers, why does she warn Perrin about Alanna?  Why doesn't she tip the group off about Luc?

(the rest come from us.)

4.  Why didn't her scar from TAR heal properly?

5.  Does she have some abnormal connections to time/timetravel?

6.  How does she know to go to the 2 rivers in the first place?

7.  What is her 70 year project?

8.  What was her 70 year old mistake?

9.  Why is she outlawed in Far Madding?

10.  Why does she know about a portal stone in the waste?  Is it the one in Rhuidean?

11.  Why/How did she get her angreal?

12.  How did she catch up to Ingtar and Co.?

13.  Who was the man that she tried her compulsion on?

14.  Why does she seem to like novices so much?

15.  Does she have a network or E & E's

16.  Why doesn't she know who Isam is?

17.  Where did she run off to at the end of KoD's?

My answers that hopefully aren't speculative:

1. RJ fixed something about that passage in later editions. I don't know what.

7. A mistake, we don't know that it's 70 years.

10. She saw a similar one near a Stedding near the Waste? I don't recall exactly, but am pretty sure the questioner is misremembering the passage.

 

Speculative:

2. Probably something prophetic. Maybe lots. I tend to see Verin as more an agent of prophecy anyway (her choice), not as an avatar in some way we haven't seen yet.

3. How does Verin turn up when one or more of the Taveran does something cool? ;) I don't think the warning was too specific, there could be a lot of reasons. She should have seen something was up with Luc, I'm pretty sure she saw the Dark Prophecy thingy at Fal Dara.

4. I doubt we know whether or not someone was nearby that could heal it. She may have chosen not to have it healed. Or she could be a Dream-Walker herself and it was before she went to the tower met other AS, etc... ;)

5. Why would you think this?

6. See 3.

8. No idea.

9. No idea.

11. How did Moi get hers?

12. Read tGH.

13. No idea.

14. We know that she likes to collect the 'my first weaves' they come up with.

15. I'd say most assuredly. Though she may place a lot of importance in seeing things with her own eyes too.

16. See 4.

17. Seeing her as someone self-appointed to nudge prophecy along and possessing at the very least some unique knowledge or hints from Corianin, I see her going to one of the other Taveran. Either Perrin or she'll grab the Horn then go to Mat. However she can travel now, so there's tons of other possibilities too, but eventually either to Mat or Perrin. My guess is Mat.

 

I think some of your questions are extraneous to say the least. Not every bit of character throw-away history is going to be explained.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

Now if you don't get my point here it is: nothing is proven through science. Theories are accepted but not perfect... So stop using science as an example...

 

Now from a philosophical point of view you are correct, objective truths is unkowable to humans( a long line of philosophers have spent their intellectual lifes making that point). However in science a generally accepted theory, has the force of law. It can of course be refuted but scientists take its validity as a give. Your example of the General Theory of relativety is flawd in at least in two ways. First the scientists will attempt to disprove Einstien's assertion tat nothing can travel faster then the speed of light, whether they will be succesful is still not known. Second, the tenents of the Theory has already been put in question by the decelopment of Quantum Mechanics in the 1920's. That is why Einstien spent the last 25 years of his life trying to develop a Unified Field Theory.

 

More importantly you miss the import of the logical processes used by scientists lawyers, etc.  When examining a given question a scientist will attempt to review all relevant facts and then comes up with a theory.  His peers will then ask him for certain facts, issues, variables he may not of thought of. They will also ask him to explain what appear to be contradictions or inconsistencies in the theory.

 

Now, my point in mentioning the fact that I am a lawyer was not that I expect any theory proposed in this forum to be a "legal brief", but to point out that I have a bias in favor of clearly disclosing the logic behind as assertion.  This is especially relevent in a discussion concerning a series of fiction.  Since, none of us are RJ there is no way we can "prove" are theories are correct.  At most we can point to evidence in the books or assert the rationality of the theory within the framework of the WOT Universe.  That being said half the "fun" I get from these threads is logic used by each participent in coming up with there theories.  To put out a theory but refuse to disclose the reasoning behind it is I assert a form of intellectual masterbation (it may be personally gratifying but does nothing for others).

[deathgate]

Since she is from Far Madden and the power is unable to be used there, perhaps she was injured there and put in a cell like Rand was. Therefore, she was not able to be healed in time for the scar to be removed. Possibly, some of the other ideas everyone has brought forward could be tied together such as the missing Aes Sedai - Zarya Alkaese, the injury, the mistake etc. Probably unlikely they all tie in together to make an easy solution.

[cloglord]

My answers that hopefully aren't speculative:

1. RJ fixed something about that passage in later editions. I don't know what.

7. A mistake, we don't know that it's 70 years.

10. She saw a similar one near a Stedding near the Waste? I don't recall exactly, but am pretty sure the questioner is misremembering the passage.

 

1.  I am aware that RJ stated later that the Verin Lie was intentional, but I'm unaware of any corrections made in later additions, could you post were you heard this?

7.  We do know that she has been working on something for the last 70 years. LOC: 11, Lessons and Teachers

10.  TGH: 36, Among the Elders.  "I know none [portal stones] closer than the Aiel Waste."  The clear implication is that she knows of a portal stone in the Aiel Waste.

 

2. Probably something prophetic. Maybe lots. I tend to see Verin as more an agent of prophecy anyway (her choice), not as an avatar in some way we haven't seen yet.

3. How does Verin turn up when one or more of the Taveran does something cool? Wink I don't think the warning was too specific, there could be a lot of reasons. She should have seen something was up with Luc, I'm pretty sure she saw the Dark Prophecy thingy at Fal Dara.

4. I doubt we know whether or not someone was nearby that could heal it. She may have chosen not to have it healed. Or she could be a Dream-Walker herself and it was before she went to the tower met other AS, etc... Wink

5. Why would you think this?

6. See 3.

8. No idea.

9. No idea.

11. How did Moi get hers?

12. Read tGH.

13. No idea.

 

3.  She certainly should have seen something was up with Luc,  not only did she see the dark prophecy, she translated it for Siuan.

4.  We do know that someone was nearby to heal it, Verin mentions that Anaiya was the one who did the healing, and that it did not work as it should.

5.  It was suggested by Jonn, and I'll let him anser this if he wants.

11. Moirane got her angreal, by having it issued to her by the amrylin seat, and by going through the proper channels. With Verin's this is clearly not the case.

12.  I did read TGH, several times in fact, and as near as I can tell, Verin managed to catch up to a group that had been traveling in a direction nearly opposite that which would have been predicted(SE instead of N towards the blight) with almost a week long head start, that was traveling at its maximum speed every day from before sun-up to sun-down, that had changed course at least twice a day for the entirety of its journey, and she managed to do it with no apparent means of predicting where they would be when she caught up to them.  Yet still she manages to accomplish this feat in a matter of only a few days.  This struck me as odd. 

 

To put out a theory but refuse to disclose the reasoning behind it is I assert a form of intellectual masterbation (it may be personally gratifying but does nothing for others).

 

For the record, intellectual masterbation is my second favorite kind. ;)

[Jonn]

Hey, I thought I was the only one allowed to say "intellectual masturbation" around here!

 

Cloglord, thanks for going into Verin's strange reappearance in The Great Hunt. I don't have that book with me and I haven't read it in about two years.

 

It did strike me odd on first read that she suddenly showed up at the exact right location at  the right time to intercept the party.

 

Now the quote about knowing of a portal stone in the Aiel Waste, that has been lost in my memory as just another detail. Could someone kindly past these bits onto this thread for examination? I would like to know what exactly she said about her knowledge of portal stones, what she knows about them and her experiences with them. That would be very helpful to people like myself who have lost their copy to a friend who never gave it back after loan. I would appreciate it.

 

Now let me take on the time warp, prophecy angle with Verin again, because I do realize that I have given three lines of theory regarding her lie, but let me paint a bigger picture.

 

There are several instances where we have main characters struggling against a prophecy that involves them. The main character is struggling against THE prophecy. It's a MAJOR theme in the books.

 

There's Rand. There's Min. There's Aviendha struggling after her trip through the Rings of Rhuidean. There's Moiraine. There's Mat and the Aelfinn. There is Thom and Moiraine's letter. There's Tigraine...

 

I've just mentioned more than half a dozen characters who in some form or other have received information from another time and struggle with some sort of prophetic duty they must uphold. What do they have in common?

 

They have all, by extraordinary means, been given a glimpse into their future. They have all hit points on their paths where their actions defied explanation in the eyes of those around them. What I mean is...there is always a scene where another character wonders about them as to how that person knew about something they shouldn't be able to know. They are observed doing things that are seen as questionable, but later on the balance is tipped in their favor miraculously...

 

Sound familiar?

 

Verin is one of those characters who is surrounded by a shroud of strange inconsistencies. She is one of those characters who seems to simply know things that should not be common knowledge. She appears to be following a path that leads others to believe that what she does is very strange, out of the ordinary, mysterious.

 

Take Aviendha for example. She returned from Rhuidean and displayed open rage towards Rand, something most Aiel never do, let alone someone who would be Car'a'carn. She avoids him as much as she can and tries her best to make him dislike her, but of course Rand becomes more and more intent on making peace with her. Her vision in Rhuidean told her that anything she did, all paths lead her to Rand's arms, but she still resisted, acted strangely, trying to defy her path. The strangeness of her demeanor was very noticeable.

 

Now would it be different for someone who willingly embraces the path that they seem destined to follow? I wouldn't think so.

 

Tigraine was sent to the Waste, and all of the Aiel thought she was crazy, but she had embraced the path she was given by Gitara. She went full throttle and was seen as strange, mysterious, but always decisive.

 

People who have sure knowledge of the future always stand out.

 

I believe Verin's behavior puts her in this category.

 

Her "lie" is jut another example of the strange inconsistencies in her character. So, given her actions, I believe that she is following path that has been pre-determined. The lie could well be a clue to this.

[Cybertrolloc]

12.  I did read TGH, several times in fact, and as near as I can tell, Verin managed to catch up to a group that had been traveling in a direction nearly opposite that which would have been predicted(SE instead of N towards the blight) with almost a week long head start, that was traveling at its maximum speed every day from before sun-up to sun-down, that had changed course at least twice a day for the entirety of its journey, and she managed to do it with no apparent means of predicting where they would be when she caught up to them.  Yet still she manages to accomplish this feat in a matter of only a few days.  This struck me as odd.

Yes, Ingtar's group is in a hurry: to follow the Darkfriends who aren't travelling in a straight line. The Tar Valon group left Fal Dara at nearly the same time, Verin splits with them sans Tomas like 3 nights later (after Moi splits)...

 

Looking at http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/tl0998.htm#book2 things aren't that straightforward. From the synopses in the link, it's possible the Amrylin's party could have crossed paths with the DF's and pursuers, the Warders should notice that. Both parties do make their way to the Erinin after all, though the Amrylin's group left 2 or 3 days later.

 

On the changes to Verin's lie scene...if someone will post the MRP (the half book reprints?) of that, I'll dig up my second ed. Great Hunt pb text and post it.

[CUBAREY]

Three Quesion's

 

1. I know I should read the enite thread and all previous realed threads before asking this question, but has anyone brought up the possibility that Verin may have placed a "finder" (like the coins Moirainne gave the boys in the EOTW, to one of the minor characters that went on the journey with the boys and Ingtar?

 

2. Jonn is it your theory that Verin (either in the actual world or the Dream world) went through the same rins as the Aiel wise-ones? I could buy that.

 

3. I thought Verin did not get the significance of the Luc/Sham allsusion in the Dark Prophecy eritten in the Dungean in Fal Dara?

 

 

As to the Intellectual masterbation quote, I once incuded the term in a legal brief (and its close cousin Intellectual Incest) in a legal brief and got hell from a judge who did't grasp the meaning (pun intended) of the term and was quite offended by their inclusion. :o :o

[BrainFireBob]

Quote:

 

Now if you don't get my point here it is: nothing is proven through science. Theories are accepted but not perfect... So stop using science as an example...

 

Now from a philosophical point of view you are correct, objective truths is unkowable to humans( a long line of philosophers have spent their intellectual lifes making that point). However in science a generally accepted theory, has the force of law. It can of course be refuted but scientists take its validity as a give. Your example of the General Theory of relativety is flawd in at least in two ways. First the scientists will attempt to disprove Einstien's assertion tat nothing can travel faster then the speed of light, whether they will be succesful is still not known. Second, the tenents of the Theory has already been put in question by the decelopment of Quantum Mechanics in the 1920's. That is why Einstien spent the last 25 years of his life trying to develop a Unified Field Theory.

 

Sadly, this is something many don't grasp who aren't trained in precision.

 

My training is physics, and I can tell you, it's not that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light- it's that the concept of fast has a time element, and the rate of time passing and speed of tracel are codependent- essentially, at the speed of light in a vacuum time stops, or more accurately ceases to be diifferentiated.

 

Einstein was trying to disprove the Born interpretation of Schrodinger's equation- that existence is effectively nothing more than a probability function.

 

Without years of training, people can't grasp the particular nuance of the terms use, and conflate concepts that are conflatable in colloquial, not specific, usage but that aren't conflatable in the nuanced usage- with reference to your field, CUBAREY, it's the same as people claiming "free speech" protection for everything they say- when free speech also covers symbolic acts, but does not cover obscene speech (Schenk vs. Maine? Maryland?). Meaning that it's constructive speech that's protected, not any old gibberish.

 

Science follows an impersonal methodology- there's no investment in science, only in learning. Bias and attachment aren't relevant in any meaningful way.

 

With respect to WoT, Jordan had reasons for his decisions, and followed a methodology in writing. We attempt to deduce this by deriving his logic in reverse- down to his preconceptions and base assumptions. Based on these things we accept or reject theories as being inconsistent with the shape of Wheel of Time- not personal bias. In that context- trying to discern the intent of the artist- analysis of art is rather objective, and does in fact have right and wrong answers. Only fully known to the artist, but not necessarily universally obscured.

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

With respect to WOT, Jordan had reasons for his decisions, and followed a methodology in writing. We attempt to deduce this by deriving his logic in reverse- down to his preconceptions and base assumptions. Based on these things we accept or reject theories as being inconsistent with the shape of Wheel of Time- not personal bias

 

This is a much more eloquent way of stating the point I was trying to make. It is not stifling creativity to ask that the proponent of a theory explain his reasoning. People who maintain that "art" is different (at least "art" that is in written form-- novels, short stories, essays, etc.) have obviously never encountered an editor or publisher. Moreover some of the most imaginative people I know are scientists, whose work goes through a rather critical review process before it ever sees the light of day. 

 

I would also like to point out that the argument that a theory is based on the vision propounded in WOT or is consistent with the universe created in WOT, instead of in particular scenes or "facts" included in the books, does not estop a particepent from inquiring from the proponent of the theory how the theory how the theory is consistent with the universe or vision of WOT.

[cloglord]

People who have sure knowledge of the future always stand out.

 

I believe Verin's behavior puts her in this category.

 

Her "lie" is jut another example of the strange inconsistencies in her character. So, given her actions, I believe that she is following path that has been pre-determined. The lie could well be a clue to this.

 

What you have said is correct.  Verin does seem to exhibit behavior that indicates her knowledge of the future.  And of the types of methods that you decribe as being possibly predictive, we know for sure that she has experienced at least 3,(if you count her test for accepted,) the other two being her apparent mastery of interpretation of the Kaerethon prophecies, and Corianinn's notes.  Either of the second two are fully sufficient to explain her odd behavior in terms of knowledge of the future, so you'll propbably have to work quite a bit harder at convincing me that there is some further extra-dimensional aspect to Verin.

 

Yes, Ingtar's group is in a hurry: to follow the Darkfriends who aren't travelling in a straight line. The Tar Valon group left Fal Dara at nearly the same time, Verin splits with them sans Tomas like 3 nights later (after Moi splits)...

 

Looking at http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/tl0998.htm#book2 things aren't that straightforward. From the synopses in the link, it's possible the Amrylin's party could have crossed paths with the DF's and pursuers, the Warders should notice that. Both parties do make their way to the Erinin after all, though the Amrylin's group left 2 or 3 days later.

 

There are some bits here that are clearly wrong.  I'll re-post the post I made, where RAW and I had this same discussion.

 

Quote

Now, lets establish when Verin left the Aes Sedai convoy, and started south after them.

 

The Aes Sedai left Fal Dara just minutes after Ingtar.  They moved straight southeast (not having to veer back and forth, following a zig-zagging trail) toward Medo on the River Mora (all this per TGH ch 12).  Medo is not on the map, nor is a distance given, however, given its stone piers and the description as being along the border between Shienar and Arafel, it is probably around the point where the main road from Fal Moran to Shol Arbela crosses the Medo.  Certainly whatever settlement is along that road must have dock facilities for trade, and if there was one closer, the Aes Sedai would have used it.

 

Again, wrong.  As per chapter 12 the column, "angled Westward as they traveled...through the Shienarian hills."  Not southeast, (I think you might have meant SW.) They didn't follow the road, as the road runs through Fal Moran, they went through the hills.  However Medo is pretty easy to posit on a map, as the book tells us that Medo is on the river Mora along the border, and that Mora runs into the Erinin.  If you look at the map, I've provided below, there is a stub of river that runs along the border that also runs into the Erinin, That is where I put the red dot, point one.

 

Quote

Now, when the Amyrlin's party reaches the river Medo, Egwene finds out that Verin left the party two days before.  We know Verin was there the first night (she taught the wondergirls their lesson) but after that we do not see her.  So, Verin (and Moiraine and Liandrin) probably left the Amyrlin's party the second night out of Fal Dara.

 

No, it took 6.5 days to reach Medo (steven Cooper's timeline based on the fact that the moon is waxing) and Verin left 2 days before, 4.5 days out of Fal Dara.

 

Quote

Drawing an arc on the map to see where Ingtar and co. would have been at this time (and keeping in mind that they were travelling in zig zags for the first couple days, which offsets the slower speed of the Amyrlin's troop), they would be about 3-4 days south of Fal Dara at that time (meaning it took 3-4 days for the Amyrlin's party to reach the river, which fits the description) and still north of the River Erinin.

 

I did just as you suggested and drew an arc.  By the time that Verin caught up to the group they have traveled nearly 6 full days (1/2 day the first day, 4 full days from dawn to dusk, the nearly full day they crossed the river, and the hours spent in the morning of the 7th day before Verin caught up.)I estimated their trajectory keeping in mind that they did not have to follow a zigzag course the last two days of the chase.  That is the yellow dot and the number two, the point at which Verin caught up.  The blue line is an "as the crow flies" path that Verin would have had to cross having left on the 4th day traveling with the Aes Sedai, in order to catch up to Ingtar.

 

 

as you can see, she made a trip similar in length to a 6.5 day trip for Aes Sedai in a little over 2 days.  Also keep in mind that she would have had to be clairvoyant to know exactly where they were headed, as Ingtar's group left before Verin's and traveled unexpectedly south instead of towards the blight as was predicted.  So, I'll ask it again, how did Verin know where Rand & Co. was, and how did she make a 6 day trip in 2 days?

 

1. I know I should read the enite thread and all previous realed threads before asking this question, but has anyone brought up the possibility that Verin may have placed a "finder" (like the coins Moirainne gave the boys in the EOTW, to one of the minor characters that went on the journey with the boys and Ingtar?

 

Not yet, I was hoping someone would ask this question. ;)  The problem with this question is that it raises more questions about Verin than it answers.  Before Rand and Co. leave, Moraine had all of their old things burned, and cleansed them to prevent anyone from following them using the OP.  So, either Verin did not use a finder, or she found a way to put one on the boys/group in direct opposition to the Moraine/Suian plan.  To my mind, if Verin is actively counteracting Moraine's plan, then it makes it less likely that Verin was sent by moraine by way of aes sedai prevarication, and more likely that Verin did something to Moraine to make her forget.

 

3. I thought Verin did not get the significance of the Luc/Sham allsusion in the Dark Prophecy eritten in the Dungean in Fal Dara?

 

TGH: 7, Blood Calls Blood.  "...Verin nodded as if it were all just words.  'Other names are clear, too, Mother.  Lord Luc, of course, was brother to Tigrane, then the Daughter-Heir of Andor, and he vanished into the blight.  Who Isam is, or what he has to do with Luc, I do not know however.'"

 

She clearly know who Luc is, and yet fails to put it together or mention it, when she meets him in the 2R's.

[CUBAREY]

To Cloglord:

 

Quote:

 

Moraine had all of their old things burned, and cleansed them to prevent anyone from following them using the OP.  So, either Verin did not use a finder, or she found a way to put one on the boys/group in direct opposition to the Moraine/Suian plan.  To my mind, if Verin is actively counteracting Moraine's plan, then it makes it less likely that Verin was sent by moraine by way of aes sedai prevarication, and more likely that Verin did something to Moraine to make her forget.

 

First, Verin was not privy to the conversation between Moiraine and the Amyrlen in which Morraine said that she had decided to let the boys go on their own way for a while. Second, I'm pretty sure that Verin did not know that Moiraine  had destroyed all the boys' belongings in order to destroy any finder placed on them. Third, and this is nit-picky I admit(but the Three oaths leave a lot of room to maneuver), but if she placed a finder on Igtar or another of the Shinerians she was not technically going against the dictates of Moraine's plan (even if we theorize she was told about it off-screen). 

 

Wheather or not Verin is a Darkfriend used compulsion or simply put the Finder on one of the Shinerians following Moiraine's admonition that "we will do what we have to do", placing the Finder does explain how she found Igtar and the traveling group but was surprised that Rand was not with them.

 

 

[cloglord]

First, Verin was not privy to the conversation between Moiraine and the Amyrlen in which Morraine said that she had decided to let the boys go on their own way for a while.

 

This has been a bone of contention between RAW and I before.  Even if she weren't privy to that conversation, the plans of that earlier conversation may have changed drastically with the fact that the Horn had been stolen, and that one of the Taveren's lives hung on retrieving the SL dagger.  However, as has been mentioned before there is the quote from TGH Ch 8.  Where Verin is clearly involved in the manipulation of Rand in which he is sent away on his quest.  At the very least, it indicates that the 3 of them were privy to some sort of plan to send Rand away, one that neither Moraine or Suian can send an obvious aes sedai tail to, as evidenced by the fact that they clearly did not.  I'm not denying that Verin could have put a finder on the boys, in fact, I think it is very likely that she did.  I also think that its likely that she did so without Moraine or Siuan's knowledge.

 

Second, I'm pretty sure that Verin did not know that Moiraine  had destroyed all the boys' belongings in order to destroy any finder placed on them

 

Why?  Half the women servants were aware that Moraine has had his clothing taken, they seemed very amused by it.  Most everyone else seems to know that Moraine had had a whole new wardrobe made for him.  Any reasonably intelligent Aes Sedai with a knowledge of the finder weave could have deduced Moraine's motives here.  So why are you, "pretty sure"?

 

VThird, and this is nit-picky I admit(but the Three oaths leave a lot of room to maneuver), but if she placed a finder on Igtar or another of the Shinerians she was not technically going against the dictates of Moraine's plan (even if we theorize she was told about it off-screen).

 

Its not nit-picky at all, I think it is a very likely scenario, however that doesn't get around the fact that she would still be working in direct opposition to Moraine's stated goals about letting him go his own way.  She can split ahirs all she wants, but that is the fact of the matter.

 

placing the Finder does explain how she found Igtar and the traveling group but was surprised that Rand was not with them.

 

It does help explain how she found them, but doesn't explain how she managed to make a 6 day trip in 2 days.

[General Cauthon]

It does help explain how she found them, but doesn't explain how she managed to make a 6 day trip in 2 days

 

Here's my explanation how it's possible for Verin to catch up with Ingtar and company

 

Didn't the Amyrlin travelling on a wagon/carriage? Then Verin should be able to ride faster on her own.

If she rode through flat terrain, she would have gained alot as well. (I don't know the terrain she rode through, but it was mentioned that the Amyrlins party travelled through hills after leaving Fal Dara)

If she used the Power on her horse (like Rand did on Bela), she could hold a much higher pace then Ingtars group, who walked their horses 1/3 of the time, ran along with them 1/3 of the time, all in full heavy armor.

 

 

[CUBAREY]

Quote:

 

however that doesn't get around the fact that she would still be working in direct opposition to Moraine's stated goals about letting him go his own way.

 

Except that the Admonition "we will do what we have to do" gives her that leeway. Basically, Moiraine has a specific plan and a general admonition that can easily be twisted to override the specific plan (even if Verin is privy to the plan). Moreover placing the finder on a Shinearian does not technically violate the plan (its not on the boys, she is tracking the Shinerians).

 

If your time line is correct (which I'm not really sure about, your calculations maybe incorrect and RJ made other mistakes concerning the phases of the moon), only four possible explanations, Verin knows how to travel or skim at this early date, she is a darkfriend and a Choosen opened a gateway, there are portal stones that she could of used and she was a darkfriend (she later says she has never used a portal stone) or she can enter the Dream World in the flesh.

 

 

[BrainFireBob]

I'll agree with cloglord that slowly killing her horse by cleansing its exhaustion also would help- she could also have deduced the pattern of travel they were following and attempted a cross-country ride directly.