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Rand and the Third Man *****(KoD spoilers)*****


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Okay, guys, I’ve been developing this theory ever since Knife of Dreams, and I wanted to see how you guys felt about it. To further my theory, I will use quotes from Min, in regards to her viewings of Rand.

 

"I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and I don't know what it means, Rand, except that one of you dies, and one doesn't." (ACoS, Ch. 33).

 

I had previously assumed that this must be Lews Therin. However, with the revelation in KoD that Moridin is the Third Man in Rand’s head, I’ve begun to think that it refers to him.

 

"Rand, I like Alivia. I do, even if she does make Nynaeve have kittens left and right. But she is going to kill you." (WH, Ch. 25).

 

Min’s vision points to Alivia “helping” Rand die, however at this time, she interprets it as “killing” him, because she doesn’t see how there would be any difference. But in my view, this makes a whole lot of difference.

 

"...three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood...” (TEotW, Ch. 15).

 

From this vision, it appears that Rand dies at the Last battle, and the three women would be his three loves.

 

Now for the theory:

 

Rand goes to Shayol Ghul, and uses the link in his head with Moridin, the link forged by the crossing of their balefires, to insert himself into Moridin’s body.  Alivia balefires Rand’s old body while Lews Therin and Ishy are fighting for control.

 

And problem solved. Rand’s body dies, so all the nobility and whatnot assume he is dead. He gets a healthy body, one that has two hands (which means he is back to being a badass blademaster), one that doesn’t get queasy/dizzy when he tries to touch saidin, and no wounds that can’t be healed.

 

And since everyone saw Rand die, he has the ability to live a normal life once more, like he has always wanted. Remember, Rand never wanted to be the Dragon, or to be a lord. He just wanted to live a peaceful life in Two Rivers. But now, he can live in quiet, and resume a low-key life.

 

One of the ways I look at it is this: Rand’s body is broken.  He can barely touch saidin, and every time he does, Lews Therin fights him for control of it. He can’t possibly do much of anything at the Last Battle in his present condition; he would be a liability more than anything else.

 

But after becoming Moridin, he can use the TP to seal up the Dark One’s bore, since Moridin, being Nae’blis, would have access to that. And unlike the OP seals, which were slowly worn down with the DO’s True Power, the DO won’t be able to break free of his prison if it is sealed with the True Power.

 

I’ve always had a theory that the cuendillar seals were broken by the True Power, because the TP, unlike the OP, should be able to damage them.

 

Anyways, that’s my theory. What do you guys think?

 

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:)Hmmm... that could be it.

but...

some Q's:

WHEN does Rand meet Moridin?

IF Mat died and came back, couldn't Rand do that also?

AND building on another theroy... If Nyeneve IS someone from the AoL "reborn", I think that she will suddenly find new powers in herself and be able to heal Rand's wounds and grow back his hand, because it says somewhere that Aes Sedai Healing in the AoL was AMAZING.

 

:)My brain is controlled by a tuna...

don't blame me! :)

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I would assume Rand would meet Moridin in the Pit of Doom.

 

He should reach Shayol Ghul, and as he does so, his wounds break open. And he ends up in the Pit, with Moridin, and recognizes him as the wanderer. Realizing that he should be able to manipulate the link in the same way Lews Therin has, he utilizes it to swap bodies.

 

No, even if Nynaeve eventually becomes skilled enough to heal a hand, Rand will never get his hand back, because the skin has already been healed over, so it is as if there is no wound.

 

Anyways, Nyn is skilled at healing but that doesn't mean she is a person from the AoL reborn.

 

And I would assume RJ wouldn't have a transparent enough plot to have Rand be reborn in much the same way that Mat was.

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But after becoming Moridin, he can use the TP to seal up the Dark One’s bore, since Moridin, being Nae’blis, would have access to that. And unlike the OP seals, which were slowly worn down with the DO’s True Power, the DO won’t be able to break free of his prison if it is sealed with the True Power.

 

This part absolutely won't happen.  The True Power is drawn directly from the Dark One, and cannot be used by anyone, in any body, against his will.

 

Per RJ:

 

"Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you."

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=58

 

So, you can't do anything with the True Power without the Dark One letting you do it.  Somehow I don't think he's going to let Rand seal him up with his own Power.

 

Then, too, the Dark One would almost certainly not be fooled by a body-swap.

 

As for the body-swap itself, there are many others who have theorized about it.  I don't personally think its going to happen, but there is not anything that definitively says it can't.

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I liked the part where Rand uses the TP to seal the DO away--that is, until I read RAW's response :)

The body-swap theory holds some waters in my view, because I can't for the life of me see how Rand, in his present state, is going to fight TG. I believe extensive channeling and physical and mental exertion are some of the things waiting for him. But then again, maybe I'm not giving him enough credit :'(

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:)Hmmm... that could be it.

but...

some Q's:

WHEN does Rand meet Moridin?

IF Mat died and came back, couldn't Rand do that also?

AND building on another theroy... If Nyeneve IS someone from the AoL "reborn", I think that she will suddenly find new powers in herself and be able to heal Rand's wounds and grow back his hand, because it says somewhere that Aes Sedai Healing in the AoL was AMAZING.

 

:)My brain is controlled by a tuna...

don't blame me! :)

Ok, in one of the early book, TDR or sooner, Nynaeve is trying to heal somebody and she thinks to herself sarcastically 'easier to heal stilling or regrow a lost hand.'

I remember thinking it was very interesting that she mantioned a lost hand in particular.

While I can't remember the exact quote while re-reading the book I remember thinking that it is waaay too closely linked to stuff in the book. Nynaeve healed stilling and Rand has lost a hand...coincidence?...I think not.

Also Nynaeve has all but promised that she'll heal Rand's side wound. She references it almost every time she's around him...it's been mentioned too many times not to happen.

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Its in TSR, chapter 5, when Nynaeve is explaining stilling to Aviendha, after they noticed that Amico no longer had the ageless look.  As part of the explanation, Nynaeve said:

 

"It [stilling] is generally accepted to be irreversible.  What makes a woman able to channel cannot be replaced once it is removed, any more than a hand that has been cut off can be Healed back into existence."

 

Obviously, we now know stilling can be Healed, so, there is an argument to be made that this is classic Jordan foreshadowing-with-a-hammer.

 

I personally hope its not.  Nynaeve Healing Rand's hand would be a cheesy cop-out, to me.

 

However, the wound in his side is a different matter.  It is symbolic of the wounds in the land and the Pattern, and, after the Bore is re-sealed, the wound that he got in Falme will probably Heal itself, or be subject to normal Healing.  The wound from Fain's dagger can also be Healed, with sufficient Power and skill (just like Mat).  So, the wounds in his side will definitely be Healed.  I hope the hand doesn't come back though.

 

Of course this is all moot if he gets a nice shiny new body.

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Rand goes to Shayol Ghul, and uses the link in his head with Moridin, the link forged by the crossing of their balefires, to insert himself into Moridin’s body.  Alivia balefires Rand’s old body while Lews Therin and Ishy are fighting for control.

 

I like the body swap idea, but I think Alivia would need to use another method other than balefire to kill Rand's body. Why? Remember, balefire eats backwards in time, causing the object to cease to exist before it was destroyed. Hence if Alivia used balefire she would have to be very careful that she doesn't destroy the body before Rand makes the jump... if you follow me.  Also bear in mind the vision of the three women and Rand's body. That should confirm balefire would be used since balefire makes you vanish.  Apart from that, your theory is sound though, but I think a simple fireball or snapped neck would do the job.

 

And problem solved. Rand’s body dies, so all the nobility and whatnot assume he is dead. He gets a healthy body, one that has two hands (which means he is back to being a badass blademaster), one that doesn’t get queasy/dizzy when he tries to touch saidin, and no wounds that can’t be healed.

 

It would definitely be an upgrade as far as healthy body is concerned. It was strongly suggested that Moridin had the same problem with getting queasy when grasping the one power (or when Rand did maybe.) This wasn't completely confirmed but it was noted in one of the forsaken meetings that he was late... suggesting he might have drawn on the power before coming in. (Mind you that would probably be True power in his case rather than One Power and I'm not sure drawing on that would make him queasy... but anyway.) Rand also saw him looking ill once when he drew on the power, if I remember correctly.

 

That being said, I think the queasiness might have been caused by the link. Killing Rand's body and severing the link would probably still rectify this.

 

Of course Rand might inherit other problems from gaining Moridin's body. Namely, Moridin drew profusely on the True power, and that apparently has a detrimental affect. If it was mainly spiritual, that would be solved with the annihilation of Moridin's spirit. However the saa suggest there's a physical affect too. That being said, maybe with Rand in control refusing to draw on the True power the affect might not accumulate further, and might even heal.

 

I wonder if having a healthy body will solve the problem with Lew Therin though. Semirhage stated that it was a form of insanity caused by tainted saidin. (She might have been lying, but for some reason I think she could well have been telling the truth here.) If the insanity caused by damage to the physical brain cells, then swapping bodies could cure it. However, if it was spiritual, just swapping bodies would take his problems with him...

 

And since everyone saw Rand die, he has the ability to live a normal life once more, like he has always wanted. Remember, Rand never wanted to be the Dragon, or to be a lord. He just wanted to live a peaceful life in Two Rivers. But now, he can live in quiet, and resume a low-key life.

 

He hopes... Actually after Taimon Gaidon (or whatever it's called ) it probably will be a lot quieter. I wonder though if after fulfilling his destiny if his role of taveren will end, or if he'll have it until he dies?

 

But after becoming Moridin, he can use the TP to seal up the Dark One’s bore, since Moridin, being Nae’blis, would have access to that. And unlike the OP seals, which were slowly worn down with the DO’s True Power, the DO won’t be able to break free of his prison if it is sealed with the True Power.

 

I don't think this would work for reasons others have already given. I wouldn't be surprised if Rand ends up linking up with other power users (Ashaman, Aes Sedai and others) drawing on remaining Sa'Angreals using the one power to seal the bore. I think both men and women are the key to this. I think this time it could be done directly without setting anything in cuendillar at all. The True power would not be used though.

 

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Rand goes to Shayol Ghul, and uses the link in his head with Moridin, the link forged by the crossing of their balefires, to insert himself into Moridin’s body.  Alivia balefires Rand’s old body while Lews Therin and Ishy are fighting for control.

I like the body swap idea, but I think Alivia would need to use another method other than balefire to kill Rand's body. Why? Remember, balefire eats backwards in time, causing the object to cease to exist before it was destroyed. Hence if Alivia used balefire she would have to be very careful that she doesn't destroy the body before Rand makes the jump... if you follow me.  Also bear in mind the vision of the three women and Rand's body. That should confirm balefire would be used since balefire makes you vanish.  Apart from that, your theory is sound though, but I think a simple fireball or snapped neck would do the job.
That makes you one of the first then. Even a lot of its suporters dislike it, they support it because its the best for fulfilling prophecies that anyone has come up with.

 

And problem solved. Rand’s body dies, so all the nobility and whatnot assume he is dead. He gets a healthy body, one that has two hands (which means he is back to being a badass blademaster), one that doesn’t get queasy/dizzy when he tries to touch saidin, and no wounds that can’t be healed.

 

It would definitely be an upgrade as far as healthy body is concerned. It was strongly suggested that Moridin had the same problem with getting queasy when grasping the one power (or when Rand did maybe.) This wasn't completely confirmed but it was noted in one of the forsaken meetings that he was late... suggesting he might have drawn on the power before coming in. (Mind you that would probably be True power in his case rather than One Power and I'm not sure drawing on that would make him queasy... but anyway.) Rand also saw him looking ill once when he drew on the power, if I remember correctly.

That was the first time he was able to make out Moridin's face, so they appear to be getting closer. And yes, you do remember correctly.

 

That being said, I think the queasiness might have been caused by the link. Killing Rand's body and severing the link would probably still rectify this.
The swap itself may have break the link.

 

Of course Rand might inherit other problems from gaining Moridin's body. Namely, Moridin drew profusely on the True power, and that apparently has a detrimental affect. If it was mainly spiritual, that would be solved with the annihilation of Moridin's spirit. However the saa suggest there's a physical affect too. That being said, maybe with Rand in control refusing to draw on the True power the affect might not accumulate further, and might even heal.
I don't think Rand will have a choice. If the addiction remains after Moridin leaves his body, Rand won't be getting access to the TP, as already mentioned. Enforced cold turkey. I wonder what the withdrawal symptoms will be like.

 

I wonder if having a healthy body will solve the problem with Lew Therin though. Semirhage stated that it was a form of insanity caused by tainted saidin. (She might have been lying, but for some reason I think she could well have been telling the truth here.) If the insanity caused by damage to the physical brain cells, then swapping bodies could cure it. However, if it was spiritual, just swapping bodies would take his problems with him...
I would say it's probably more likely that LTT would stay with Rand - his personality is a part of Rand's, and they share a soul.

 

And since everyone saw Rand die, he has the ability to live a normal life once more, like he has always wanted. Remember, Rand never wanted to be the Dragon, or to be a lord. He just wanted to live a peaceful life in Two Rivers. But now, he can live in quiet, and resume a low-key life.

 

He hopes... Actually after Taimon Gaidon (or whatever it's called ) it probably will be a lot quieter. I wonder though if after fulfilling his destiny if his role of taveren will end, or if he'll have it until he dies?

 

But after becoming Moridin, he can use the TP to seal up the Dark One’s bore, since Moridin, being Nae’blis, would have access to that. And unlike the OP seals, which were slowly worn down with the DO’s True Power, the DO won’t be able to break free of his prison if it is sealed with the True Power.

 

I don't think this would work for reasons others have already given. I wouldn't be surprised if Rand ends up linking up with other power users (Ashaman, Aes Sedai and others) drawing on remaining Sa'Angreals using the one power to seal the bore. I think both men and women are the key to this. I think this time it could be done directly without setting anything in cuendillar at all. The True power would not be used though.

Personally, I don't think channeling any amount of the power is the answer. Look at it this way, Shai'tan is a god. He is almost certainly stronger than Rand, even with the CK. All the other angreal and sa'angrel and channelers in the world wouldn't match Rand's power with that, in all probability. So why would a little more power help matters that much? The key to victory more likely lies in Rand's ta'veren abilities, and maybe in the hands of Mat and Perrin as well.
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Okay, I had balefire on my mind yesterday, for some reason. It doesn't have to be balefire. It can basically be anything.

 

And from what Graendal has supposedly told Semirhage, the voice in your head thing is mental, and aside from the fact that Semi could have been lying, I would trust Graendal, because she was supposedly skilled at reintegrating people.

 

Anyways, I would assume that Lews would be left in the old body with Ishy, if indeed Graendal is right.

 

Also, about Moridin: I'm wondering now if Moridin uses the TP so much because his link with Rand at the end of CoS makes him sick when he tries to use saidin, or if it actually makes him sick when he tries to use the TP, because the balefire that connected with Rand's was made using the TP.

 

Either way, it would be probable that after one man died, the link would be broken, and there would be no more sickness.

 

And isn't it possible that Moridin is actually getting sick every time Rand tries to use the OP? Because this could be possible, if the link is this strong.

 

Anyways, Rand should do this sometime before he faces the DO, because if he doesn't, he is going to have one heck of a time trying to do anything meaninful with two wounds in his side bursting open, him getting dizzy after touching the source, Lews Therin trying to seize the source all the time, and missing one hand.

 

I just don't think Rand is in the physical condition to do much of anything at the Last Battle, judging by what has happened recently.

 

Then, Rand can seal the DO (I'm not sure how, but I agree after thinking this through that it can't be with the TP).

 

However, mightn't it be possible that to allow Moridin to use the TP would be to give Rand the ability to use it indirectly through Moridin? If so, could Rand burn Moridin out?

 

Anyways, I'm pretty confident about the main premise of my theory. I wish there was some way I could send this to RJ and be like "Hey, I can't wait to see Rand swap bodies with Moridin" just to see what he said.

 

If he asked me why I thought that, I would say: "It's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer..." ;)

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Semirhage stated that it was a form of insanity caused by tainted saidin.

 

Um, no.  Actually, by citing Graendal as her source, she implied that it was a form of insanity NOT directly related to the taint, since Graendal did her work on mental patients before the Taint was on Saidin, before the Bore was even drilled.

 

The Taint has no seems to have no specific form of madness attached to it.  It simply seems to exacerbate other forms of inherent madness.

 

Lews Therin's persona is riding the soul template that he and Rand both originated from.  He's probably hanging around because of how badly he feels he failed last time around.  Because they are "attached" at the soul, Lews Therin would certainly follow Rand in any body-swap.  But the cure for Rand's condition is probably nothing more (or less) than fixing what Lews Therin failed to: re-sealing the Dark One.  Then ol' Lews can R.I.P. and won't need to bug Rand any more.

 

The key to victory more likely lies in Rand's ta'veren abilities, and maybe in the hands of Mat and Perrin as well.

 

Amen to that.  Look, the "Bore" is a "hole" in the Pattern.  Ta'veren pull around the threads of Pattern.  I'm figuring it goes down like this; Rand has to break the Seals so that he can go in and push Shai'tan back out of the Bore.  This, of course, will kill him, since the Bore isn't a physical place and he can't take his body along.  Then, once the Bore is clear, the Pattern will probably Heal itself.  The only thing that keeps the Bore open, I think, is Shai'tan's metaphysical "finger" stuck in the hole.  Or Lews Therin's Seal.

 

The Power probably can't fix the Hole, but it probably can push Shai'tan's finger out of it.  The Pattern and two remaining ta'veren can Heal the rest.

 

I'm hoping how Rand gets back is a complete surprise, something we've not seen before.

 

I'm wondering now if Moridin uses the TP so much because his link with Rand at the end of CoS makes him sick when he tries to use saidin,

 

Yes.

 

or if it actually makes him sick when he tries to use the TP, because the balefire that connected with Rand's was made using the TP.

 

No.

 

And isn't it possible that Moridin is actually getting sick every time Rand tries to use the OP? Because this could be possible, if the link is this strong.

 

Yes, he does, and Rand gets sick when Moridin uses saidin.  (Which is how we know its saidin that Moridin is avoiding, the random dizziness only happened to Rand once, while he was in Far Madding.  Moridin was probably experimenting to see if the link still functioned while Rand was in a stedding-like area).

 

I just don't think Rand is in the physical condition to do much of anything at the Last Battle, judging by what has happened recently.

 

Thats why I think the only real thing he'll be doing will kill him.  Actually fighting the battle will be up to Mat and Perrin and Logain and maybe Egwene.

 

However, mightn't it be possible that to allow Moridin to use the TP would be to give Rand the ability to use it indirectly through Moridin? If so, could Rand burn Moridin out?

 

No.  For alot of reasons, it doesn't work that way.

 

If he asked me why I thought that, I would say: "It's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer..."

 

-sigh-

 

Sorry guys.  You might not want to watch this.

 

*Pulls out his fluted black rod and balefires the crap out of Ealdur*

 

;D

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If he asked me why I thought that, I would say: "It's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer..."

 

-sigh-

 

Sorry guys.  You might not want to watch this.

 

*Pulls out his fluted black rod and balefires the crap out of Ealdur*

 

;D

"His post hung on the thread, as death took him"
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However, the wound in his side is a different matter.  It is symbolic of the wounds in the land and the Pattern, and, after the Bore is re-sealed, the wound that he got in Falme will probably Heal itself, or be subject to normal Healing.  The wound from Fain's dagger can also be Healed, with sufficient Power and skill (just like Mat).  So, the wounds in his side will definitely be Healed.  I hope the hand doesn't come back though.

 

If I remember correctly, one of the intros in the series said, and this is not a direct quote, i don't have my books with me, that "the land is one with the dragon and the dragon one with the land".  My theory, that as long at the land is scarred, like shadar logoth, which still lives through mordeth/fain, and shayol gul, then they will not heal.  Rand has to face Fain sooner or later, and when he does and if he destroys him, that wound will heal.  That is, I think, why his second side wound hasn't healed yet.

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The fact that I admitted to it doesn't mean anything.  What I'm not me?  What if I'm someone else, who asked the Eelfinn for the ability to impersonate me?  Hmmm?  What then?

 

Well, its intuitively obvious...

 

So lets look at motive first. Who would have reason to kill me, and why?

 

Well, it could be that I asked a lot of questions that some people felt I should be able to answer.

 

 

Means: Who had the means to kill me?

 

Well, anyone in this thread had the means to do it.

 

Method: How was I killed?

 

Well, I died quick, reminiscent of Be'lal's death in the DR, so it was probably a channeler. In fact, the similarities are so great, it was probably balefire.

 

So that means a channeler with enough strength to use balefire, OR, it could be a channeler with a balefire ter'angreal.

 

 

It was obvious, judging by my words, that I recognized who it was. There was fear in my voice, so it could have been someone I was really afraid of, or it might be that I am just a coward.

 

Now, I was thinking of RAW at the time of the murder, so could that have been a bit of a hint on the part of the author?

 

 

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My post said "death took him". Can we take this as evidence that Ealdur isn't dead, but has been kidnapped by someone called death? Would anyone on here stoop to that level? Are we going to bring puns into it?

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If he asked me why I thought that, I would say: "It's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer..."

 

-sigh-

 

Sorry guys.  You might not want to watch this.

 

*Pulls out his fluted black rod and balefires the crap out of Ealdur*

 

;D

"His post hung on the thread, as death took him"

 

Ah, but would his post remain on the thread if he was balefired? 'Balefires the crap' suggests that a lot of power was used... so his life thread might have been burned back before was able to make the post... in which case why are we responding to posts that weren't made?

 

What am I talking about?

 

::)

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But after becoming Moridin, he can use the TP to seal up the Dark One’s bore, since Moridin, being Nae’blis, would have access to that. And unlike the OP seals, which were slowly worn down with the DO’s True Power, the DO won’t be able to break free of his prison if it is sealed with the True Power.

 

 

I would think that sealing the bore would be a time intensive process like Cleansing Saidin. The Dark One would cut Moridin off as soon as he noticed what's going on.

 

Also, the bit Semirhage said about "even Graendal usually failed to achieve a successful reintegration with someone who heard a true voice" leads me to believe that Min's viewing is about Lews Therin.

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I hate it when I think I am bringing up something relatively undiscussed and everyone has already talked about it!

 

Anyways, Luckers, I'm wondering what you think: If Rand and Moridin swapped bodies, would Lews Therin stay with Rand's body, or would it move with his soul?

 

See, I think Moridin would find himself grabbing for the OP and having to fight Lews Therin to do it.

 

Also, about Ishy's death: I feel like it would be necessary for him to die before the bond can be broken, and if the bond is not broken, Rand should still get sick when he tries to wield the OP.

 

But I guess that leaves the stuff about the beggar. I was wondering, could this refer to Rand on the run in tDR? Thats how I interpreted that at the time.

 

Anyways, about Rand not being able to use the TP: If the chord that connects all Forsaken to the DO is what enables them to use the TP, then Rand should be able to use it from Moridin's body, assuming the connection is to the body of the forsaken, rather than the soul.

 

And the DO probably wouldn't be fully aware of what was going on, being limited by his vision through Shaidar Haran. I don't think the DO is omniscient...

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Anyways, Luckers, I'm wondering what you think: If Rand and Moridin swapped bodies, would Lews Therin stay with Rand's body, or would it move with his soul?

 

 

lewstherin would stay with rand the connection is at the soul

 

forgive me if im wrong but thats how i see it

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Rand al'Thor and Lews Therin are two facets or personalities of the same soul, as I see it. How could the soul move into Moridin's body and leave behind one of it's aspects? That puzzles me. And I find it unlikely that the Dark One would be unaware of his own power being used against him. I mean, it bears his own signature; he should be able to recognize it anywhere.

 

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