Really Kari?

[Safia al-Maaz]

Ok, I'm doing a reread of the whole series, because when I originally read it I didn't know about this forum for my questions.  I eventually forgot all about them until now.

 

I'm basically at the end of the first.

 

When Rand sees his mother being tortured, was that really her soul?  I think it was, because she sighed in relief when he saved her and Ishy seemed tacken aback to say the least. 

[bcxanth]

I'm still on the fence about it.  The scene certainly seems to strongly suggest it's real. However that doesn't change the fact that the person Rand was battling at the time was not actually the DO, but Ishy. And although Ishy may have a rather high oppinion of himself with his identity crisis, he's not actually the Lord of the Grave. Which means Ishy doesn't actually have the power to pull a soul from whever it is the sit around for eternity, unless being in the Bore gives him some kind of power.  The problem is that the books jsut aren't clear enough for me to really come to a decision on that point.

[GrandpaG]

He called himself Balzamon but I don't know why.  He could have just said he was Ishy and been done with it.  Might have had more affect because Rand, Matt, and Perrin had grown up hearing that name and feared it.  Until the dream, they knew Shaitan but not Balzamon.  Must have been theatrics.  He was impersonating the dark one who really has actual control of dead souls.  I think producing Rand's mom was part of the act and it was not really her.  Ishy was pulling strings on a fake puppet to impress Rand.  I must be getting tired...starting to ramble...sorry. ::)

[Safia al-Maaz]

No, that makes sense.  Maybe Ishy was just surprised that Rand was able to cut through the illusion so easily?  That still wouldn't explain how she seemed grateful though...  perhaps the DO had a hand in things?  I dunno.

 

And As for Ishy calling himself Ba'alzamon, all the Forsaken agree that because he remained free from the prison, or something to that effect, it took a toll on his sanity.  Maybe he actually thinks he is the DO.

[bcxanth]

I think that Ishy at least partly believed he was the DO.  I think he had his moments of sanity, where he knew it was all an act to overawe Rand, but then when he got really wrapped up in things it took over his mind completely.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Interestingly enough, I think Ishy had created it as an illusion, but it turned out to actually be her soul, seeping through the pattern like we've seen with some other ghosts cropping up here and there.

 

That would explain Ishy's surprise when he hears her say "The blessed light," because he wouldn't have designed the illusion to say that.

[Safia al-Maaz]

That could be true, but the ghosts being seen hadn't started showing up until book 9 I think.  Somewhere around there, when the DO was starting to get a firm grip.

[RobertAlexWillis]

In my opinion, it was indeed the actual soul of Kari al'Thor.  Or at least, her personality ... there's some grey area there.

 

I don't think "Lord of the Grave" is an empty title for the Dark One.  And, if Kari al'Thor was an illusion, then she should have been dispelled at the same time that the illusions of Nynaeve and Egwene were dispelled.  The fact that she remained, and was only dispelled when Rand channeled, combined with her expression of gratitude, make it pretty clear, to me, that it was indeed Rand's foster mother.

 

As for Ishamael/Ba'alzamon ... Ishamael was insane, due to overuse of the True Power.  It seems that one of the side effects of overuse of the True Power is that your will becomes completely subjugated to the Dark One's will.  In that sense, Ishamael was in many ways nothing more than an extension of the will of the Dark One.  Ba'alzamon means "Heart of the Dark".  In many ways, since the beginning of the War of the Power, Ishamael had been exactly that.

 

The one thing that never seemed to suffer, however, was Ishamael's ability to use the True Power in a precise way.  Its unlikely, in my opinion, that he tried to make an illusion of Kari al'Thor and somehow got her soul by accident.  Indeed, when the illusions of Nynaeve and Egwene disappeared, he seemed irritated, but he was not surprised that Kari stayed.  Instead, he said, "She, at least, is mine to do with as I will."

[bcxanth]

Nobody is saying that Lord of the Grave is an empty title for the DO. The problem is that Ishy is not the DO. Therefore Ishy is not Lord of the Grave, and so shouldn't have the power over anyone's souls, alive or dead.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Ishamael doesn't have to be the Dark One to have the Dark One give him power over a soul.

 

Dark One captures soul.

 

Dark One says, "Here, Ishy, play with this."

 

[Guest Fire Lord]

I had thought it to be an illusion, but Kari's comment at the end puzzled me. If it was not an illusion, how was her soul brought there? Where do souls go when people die? I ask this because I was under the impression that the Dark One has access to those souls pledged to him when the individuals were still alive (read Darkfriends). It would be actually scary if he has access to all souls.

[demonspawn]

I always thought that Ba'alzamon may have been a name for Ishamael all along and people just assumed that it was a trolloc name for the DO.

 

But back on topic, did Rand fight Ishamael/Ba'alzamon in the real world or was it in T a'R? If it was in the world of dreams could Ishy not just have made Rand think that he saw his mother?

 

 

[Roxinos]

You should really listen to what Robert has said on this matter. I agree with him here, so I think he should be heeded.

 

Ishamael was, pretty much, the right hand man of the Great Lord. So much so, that he was named Nae'blis later. Now, while an ordinary human might not have the power to catch a soul, the Great Lord does. And I would think that either the Great Lord has contact with Ishamael, so he knew what was going on, or he merely gave Ishamael the ability to summon the souls which he had captured.

 

It would be rather wise for the Great Lord to have captured the soul of Kari al'Thor and use it against him, considering Rand considered her his mother even after he discovered who his mother truly was.

 

Besides that, if it were illusion, don't you think that Ishamael or the Great Lord would keep the illusion active, or at least reactivate the illusion if Rand truly cut through it? Why would the Great Lord of the Dark want Rand to know that he had he ability to release the souls which he had captured.

 

The only flaw I can see in that argument is that Robert Jordan himself has said that as time goes on, it becomes more difficult for the Great Lord to capture a soul. The Great Lord did not know that Rand was the Dragon Reborn until sometime during the course of The Eye of the World. So how would he know to have captured Kari al'Thor's soul when she died? Seeing as it seems very unlikely He did so some 20 or so years after her death.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Thats definately a problem, because nobody can balefire anyone back near close to 20 years...it only takes a few seconds before the DO can no longer capture a soul. Because somewhere this a quote that says Moiraine could only balefire back about a few seconds, but Rand could go maybe an hour or two.

 

And since we still don't see Be'lal making an entrance, it seems a few seconds is enough time for the DO to lose his window of opportunity...

 

 

And I agree, if the DO knew who Rand was, he would have killed him or turned him a long time ago.

 

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

The only flaw I can see in that argument is that Robert Jordan himself has said that as time goes on, it becomes more difficult for the Great Lord to capture a soul.

 

He was referring there to the transmigration process.  I imagine the window of opportunity expands quite a bit if he's not worried about bringing the person back to life intact.

 

 

And Kari's comments indicate it required some cooperation on her part.  "The Father of Lies has a honeyed tongue for unwary souls," she said (TEoTW, ch 51).  It seems she got tricked into imprisoning herself, and that if she had not been "unwary" and listened to his "honeyed tongue", she wouldn't have gotten trapped.  So, apparently the Dark One can't just snatch any soul willy-nilly against its will.  Either you had to be pledged to him in life, or he has to trick you.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

I had actually assumed, though, that she was referring to her existance in life, like becoming a DF while she was still alive. If that is what happened, it could explain that...

[bcxanth]

If Kari had been a DF though, then the Myrdraal would have known exactly which Two Rivers boy was the one they sought. No need for Fain or anything. Kari would have known Rand's story and communicated it.

[Roxinos]

Ya, it goes without saying, though I still see plenty of people saying it, that Kari al'Thor was not a Darkfriend in life, nor in death.

 

And Robert, I don't see how you can say that he was specifically referring to the transmigration progress. While he was referring to said process in the large respect, he didn't say that it was harder and harder to bring a soul back from the dead as time passed, he merely said it was harder and harder to capture a soul. If I recall correct, that is. The comments in reference to the need of a body and balefire are moot in this topic, as those are specific to the time lapse created by the use of balefire. If I recall correct, that is.

 

Though, it does make sense that a soul would have to consent to being made a tool by the Dark One. If you can

[RobertAlexWillis]

And Robert, I don't see how you can say that he was specifically referring to the transmigration progress.

 

I say that because the statement you're referencing was made in response to a question about limitations on the transmigration process.  To quote:

 

Week 3 Question: There are many theories that attempt to create a connection of time duration to the transmigration of the dead Forsaken. Are there time and/or power constraints on the Dark One's ability to transmigrate souls?

 

Robert Jordan Answers: There are definitely time constraints on the Dark One's power to transmigrate a soul. The soul doesn't have to be secured immediately - that is, the Dark One doesn't have to be ready to snatch the soul at the instant of death - but the longer that passes after the death, the less chance that the Dark One will be able to secure the soul.

 

http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152  (emphasis added)

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

You know, I'm tempted to think that once someone becomes a DF, they now longer get spun out into the pattern, and when their soul dies, it goes to the DO.

 

That would definately put a hole in the pattern's plan.

 

Because I dont see how the DO could steal everyone's soul; if so, he could just grab the Dragon's soul and hold on to it to keep him from being reborn.

 

Or maybe he can lure souls into his clutches, somehow.

[The Lost One]

Here are just some thoughts.....I will try to explain as best I can...

 

Maybe she wasn't a darkfriend persay, but at least had somekind of connection to the dark one. Maybe a small favor or wish of hers was granted at one point and she agreed just to be some kind of watcher or something -not really understanding what she was watching for or what she really got her self into. 

 

Wouldn't it make sense that when the dark one was looking for the Dragon Reborn and didn't know exactly who it was, so he would try to set up contacts or watchers or something for those he suspected might end up being the Dragon Reborn? 

 

So his contacts traced down a child that fit the general description of the fortelling and he attempted to put as many ties as he could in that area.  Maybe there are others that were connected to Perin and Matt that we just don't know about. 

 

Basically he set it up so he had ties to people where he narrowed down where the Dragon Reborn might be.  Kari ended up being one of those ties.

 

Just some thoughts...I never really thought about it before this post, but it got me thinking. 

[bcxanth]

I don't know. That goes back to my same point before.  Even if Kari was some kind of unwitting "watcher" for the DO, they still would have known exactly which Two Rivers boy it was they wanted. Kari knew that Rand was born outside the two rivers, while the others weren't, and she might even have known the story of where Tam got the baby, or at least some version of it, so the DO would have known that Rand's true parents were a mystery.

[RobertAlexWillis]

I agree that if Kari was in any way connected to the Dark One in life, that it would be highly unlikely that Rand survived past childhood.  Also, her own statements imply that he caught her after she died.  She gives him the title "Lord of the Grave" when she talks about the power and the "longer reach" that allowed Shai'tan to get to her soul.  Then she calls him "Father of Lies" when she talks about the "honeyed tongue" that drew her in.

 

The idea that she died, and then he tricked her in some way, enticing her to give up control of her own soul, fits all the facts we have, and the things we do know about the people involved.

[lou]

i dont think rand's survival proves in any way that kari was or was not a DF. i dont believe that tam gave kari the exact details of rand's birthplace, or at least it is never stated. even in tam's dilerious state when he is "talking to kari" he only says that rand is a foundling. i dont know that tam would have even have mentioned that the baby was aeil, given the likely sentiment at the time.kari may not have known.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

i dont think rand's survival proves in any way that kari was or was not a DF. i dont believe that tam gave kari the exact details of rand's birthplace, or at least it is never stated. even in tam's dilerious state when he is "talking to kari" he only says that rand is a foundling. i dont know that tam would have even have mentioned that the baby was aeil, given the likely sentiment at the time.kari may not have known.

 

Thats actually a very good point ... however ... since there are other independent indications (her own statements) that Kari did not go over until after her death, that still seems the most likely occurence.

 

However, one of the prequels originally planned was to be on Tam and Kari al'Thor ... if Jordan still decides to do it, maybe we'll find out for sure.

 

It just seems to be way, way to much of a coincidence if the Dragon Reborn's foster mother just happened to secretly be a Darkfriend, but didn't know who her son was.  Rand wasn't born ta'veren ... and thats stretching chance pretty far.