Can you break an age without breaking the world?

[RobertAlexWillis]

Anyway, what I'm saying is that while there is no evidence to what truly marks the shifting of the Ages, it seems, at least it seems to me, to have been implied by most characters, except scholars like Herid (but scholars tend to delve into the metaphysical, wouldn't you think? He's a bit of a philosopher), that the Age of Legends is widely considered to be the Second Age. But since no one can define what each of the Ages are, for all we know, the Age where channelers first appeared, the Age of Legends, and the Third Age are all one and the same.

 

Please provide any single example of any character or any quote from RJ to this effect, and I will shut up, quick like.

 

Seriously, every time this gets brought up, I ask for any evidence for any other point of view from anyone who can find it.  And all anyone ever says is "I don't think its that way."

 

Every point I've made I supported with either sourced quotes from the author or from the books.  I'm not worried about the "number" issue (obviously the number an observer picks depends on what his/her point of reference is) but it seems clear that:

 

1. A true paradigm shift in humanity (not just the political structure or even geography) is what changes an Age  (it seems clear to me because the ONLY referenced Age changes in the suthors statements involve such a change, but no other common thread), and

 

2. The Age of Legends is therefore a part of what is called by the characters in the books, "the Third Age".

[Majsju]

I must say, you're requirements for what constitutes a paradigm shift is quite more generous than most people I've met...

[RobertAlexWillis]

I'm assuming that was sarcastic, Maj, but allow me to point out why I chose those parenthetical restrictions.  Again.

 

We have other examples of total political upheaval that we know do not constitute an Age change.  The Trolloc Wars.  The War of the Hundred Years.  The Seanchan Wars of Consolidation.

 

Politics comes from humanity.  Despite the total political upheaval of those periods, what emerged was, in its basic nature, the same as what came before.  Channelers represented power.

 

On the other hand, we have only two examples, from the author, of an Age change.  The upcoming one, which he directly correlated with the emergence of Wolfbrothers and people with Min's ability, and one other, which he directly correlated with the emergence of channeling.

 

You said earlier, Maj, that the emergence of Wolfbrothers would not have a large impact on society.  I say you're nuts.  A meaningful percentage of the population, with Perrin's abilities?  It will change basic social interactions when your friend can smell when you're lying.  A decent percentage of police that can smell crime?  (Yes, Jordan includes the sniffers in the emerging abilities)  Thats not even touching the changes that a signifigant number of Min-like seers would cause in society.  Combine that with the dissapearance of channeling, and yes, humanity will change when its abilities change.

 

Most importantly, in the context of this discussion, Jordan plainly thinks that these new abilities represent big changes.  I quote again:  "Min, and the sniffers, and wolfbrothers appearing are all highly indicative, you know. New abilities, for this Age, are appearing, and that in itself indicates great changes coming. Great changes underway. Min's abilities will not remain unique; we have already seen one wolfbrother besides Perrin and Elyas, though a pitiful soul who couldn't master his gift, and there will be other sniffers. The Age is changing. The Wheel never stands still."

 

Again, this is based on the examples that Jordan has given.  Find me something he said that indicates otherwise, and I'll happily listen.

 

(All of that did not address my "geological" restriction, except in the sense that Jordan never mentions geological upheaval in connnection with an Age changing.)

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

That is the only criterion I've seen, however I think that, regarding what RJ said about there being no specific criteria, there truly are no specific criteria. See, here is how I look at it. The Wheel shifts from one age to the next, and no one knows for sure that it really has. They just assume it has, such as after the breaking of the world, or after the last battle.

 

In other words, what I'm trying to say is, that while there may be new abilities emerging, and all that jazz, no matter what happens, the people in that age don't know for certain the Wheel has turned.

 

For all I know, one age can pass to another without any change occuring at all (or at first).

 

Though that would seem to support a fixed amount of time for each age...

[Majsju]

You bet I was sarcastic.

 

See, I don't share your apparently highly romanticized view of a bunch of wolfbrothers actually contributing to a great change for the rest of society. First of all, the ability to smell a lie is wildly exaggerated, Perrins storyline would have looked way different if he had a 100% success of catching lies. But even if that ability had been perfect, from what we've seen of wolfbrothers so far, hanging around in cities where that ability would be most useful is not exactly their favourite idea of spending their time. And then there is of course human nature. A hairy, yellow-eyed bloke who hangs out with wolves? Not in my livingroom, gringo.

 

Whatever society that comes after TG, it will not be shaped by the existence of wolfbrothers.

 

As for politics and humanity, you happily ignore the crucial point. The rise of channelers did not just mean new politics, it meant a great leap for society that makes the industrial revolution in our world look pale. The wonders of the AoL, non-polluting technology, extraordinary health and lifespans, perfect control over weather, food distribution etc would not have been possible without channelers. that was the change that brought a new age, not the politics.

The War of Power and the Breaking smashed civilization almost completely. I'd say that the AoL started to end when it became public knowledge that the DO existed. How's that for a paradigm shift, a society that has existed for millennias with peace and altruism all of a sudden learns that ultimate evil not only exists, but is attempting to conquer the world you live in. And the following war destroys everything you have ever known. And even though the war ends with the DO sealed up again, you still have to live in fear, fear from shadowspawn, fear from the Dragon being reborn, and fear from the DOs next attempt to break free, which you know will come.

 

Any change of mere politics seems quite diminished next to that.

 

 

[GrandpaG]

Yes, I did read it...all of it...carefully...I'm still not 100% sure what to think.  Lots of good arguements presented.  I'm predjudiced toward believing RAW's quotes, but I've also been duped by RJ so I don't trust every quote at face value (I think RJ has some AS skill for making me hear something other than what he said--all in the name of humor and fun, of course).

 

I still think the answer lies in the books that Min has that we don't get to see.  She is reading them intensely.  She has to have a certain amount of influence over Rand.  She's probably guiding him in her own special way toward doing what Fel's books tell her he should be doing?  I just don't know. :-\

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

RJ has said there are no specific criteria. It's as simple as that.

 

Maybe for the end of the the current Age (whether it is or isn't the third age) it includes new abilities, maybe for the end of the previous age (called the second age by modern historians in Randland) it was a huge upheaval and cataclysm that led to chaos.

 

But it could be anything. And who says anything has to happen at all to mark the end of an age?

 

You're argument is like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, RAW. It doesn't make any sense. (No offense intended)

 

What we should all conclude from the RJ statement is that people in Randland, who decide when an Age has begun or ended, and who decide what age it actually is, don't really know at all, do they? Therefore, we shouldn't put much credence into it being the Third Age.

[RobertAlexWillis]

All right.  Well, anything else I say will be a repetition, or be whining.  So, we'll leave it at that.

[Mr Ares]

I would like to point out that despite the severity of the War of a Hundred Years, the Trolloc Wars, and the Seanchan Wars of Consolidation they were none of them as severe as the Breaking. The Consolidation affected only one continent, Hundred Years War not even that, and the Trolloc Wars didn't wipe out all extant countries in Seanchan (they were far less severe there), nor, apparently, did they wipe out Shara's government, although the country was affected. You know all this, RAW, so why do you calim that these far less sever examples of political upheaval should be treated the same as the Breaking, which caused not only every country to cease to exist, worldwide, but also changed the continents, and wiped out all the Aes Sedai, leaving only half trained children to take up the mantle. The Breaking was an order of magnitude (at least) beyond the conflicts you gave, so why try to pass them off as more or less the same thing. I'm very disappointed in you, child, although your theory is very interesting and generally well argued (at times more so than your opponents viewpoints).

[RobertAlexWillis]

The Breaking was an order of magnitude (at least) beyond the conflicts you gave, so why try to pass them off as more or less the same thing. I'm very disappointed in you, child, although your theory is very interesting and generally well argued (at times more so than your opponents viewpoints).

 

To answer, once again, Oh Puissant Tilter of Windmills, Signor Quixote the Self-Confounded, the Breaking, for all its terrible consequences, did not inherently change humanity.  Aes Sedai before, Aes Sedai after.  The same fight they were fighting before (vs Shai'tan) is the same fight they were fighting after.  Using the same primary tool, the One Power.  The world changed, but humanity (who apparently make up the primary threads of the Pattern) did not.

 

For the Pattern to change signifigantly (assuming that each Age Lace is different from the others) the threads making it up have to change inherently.  Maj says that adding Wolfbrothers and Seers and Sniffers and taking away Channelers won't change anything maningful.  (Actually, he just singled out Wolfbrothers, content to ignore both my other examples and the Jordan quote I supplied, in which Jordan apparently thinks such changes are signifigant).

 

So, as the Baby Solomon to your Doddering Icon of Senilitude, I must say, although you are correct that the Breaking was on a much larger and more universal scale than the other examples given, you completely missed the point.  Its not the amount of change, its the type.

 

Again ... show me any example or quote from the author that says that either:

 

1. Massive political or geographic upheaval can change the Age, or,

 

2. The Age of Legends is the Second Age.

 

My argument is based on recorded statements from the author that in two instances (and, importantly, the ONLY two instances we have) a change in humanities abilities (discovering channeling, and the "present" emergence of Min, Hurin, and Perrin-like abilities) are indicative of a change in Age.

 

See ... Jordan says, (according to fader, who I see no reason to disbelieve), that Age ending events don't fit any set of criteria.  Events like say, the Breaking.  Or drilling the Bore.  Those are one time events in a time period, and don't define an Age.  What defines an Age (and therefore when an Age changes) are the people in it.  And the people before the Bore had the same abilities as the people after the Bore, and as the people in the "present".  One Age.  Just like the people before the Breaking had the same abilities as the people after the Breaking, and as the people in the "present".  One Age.

[Trib4l]

Except for the extreme change in the way men and women interacted due to the fact that men who could channel go insane and kill lots of people and break lots of stuff...

 

RJ has clearly laid a case for a shift in human behavior between the AOL and current age. Societal status and interaction between men and women. Rather than being the apparent equal partners they were in the AoL, men are now in some cases completely subjugated, and in most cases not by women who can channel - by society as a whole.

 

On a note besides the sexes, an entire culture of people split into 3 factions. The Aiel - one of course remained as they were and vanished, the 2nd became the Tuatha'an, and the 3rd became the war-frenzied Aiel that we know and love today.

 

In this case, an entire race of creatures is about to disappear - the Ogier. The Aiel are about to get wrecked again apparently, even though the truth of their past has already done a number.

 

I'd say there's not only a solid case for a change of "age" before, there's definitely one coming now. And I'll agree that in part, changes in human abilities are going to once again affect that change as well as the other things I mentioned.

[The Lost One]

What signals the end of an Age for me?

 

"When there is so much discussion on what triggers the end of an Age and what Age it actually is - that it makes my head hurt"

 

???

[GrandpaG]

What actually marks the end of one age and the start of the next?

 

We have sketchy information about the end of the Second Age or the Age of Legends...basically, the male AS physically ravaged the land until nothing was the same as it had been.  At some point, which differs depending upon the calendar being used, the old age ended and the new one, the Third Age or the present age, started.

 

Rand has already caused great upheaval among the Aiel, Carheinin, Tairens, Illianers, Sea Folk/Amalayans, and Caemlyners.  He has also had lesser/indirect impact on the Seanchan, Ebou Daris, borderlanders, and Tanchicans.  The only place not directly affected that we know of is Demandred's hiding place (Shara)...which will be as affected as anyplace else by TG.  How much chaos will it take before the Third Age dies and the Fourth Age begins?  Or, did the Fourth Age actually begin already?  Is it mandatory that TG happen before the next age can begin?  We know that there will be another age after this one...when will it start?

 

I had a week away from DM and did too much thinking in my idle time.

========================================

 

A bad day at DM is better than a good day on vacation! :)

 

My head is spinning, too.  Too many good arguements.  I can't choose.  I'll have to mull it over.  Probably will dig this thread up again in a few months after it's had time to settle in my feeble brain.  Thanks for the input, everyone!

 

===========================================

 

It's not real...it's only fantasy...it's not real... :)

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Well, RAW, I finally think I get what you are saying about the criteria not necessarily being specific events, but changes in people. Makes sense, after all...

 

Obviously the disappearance/resurgence of different abilities is a very important part of that.

 

Other than that, I think a change in the way people live, and a change in the way people think and interact...though the abilities thing is important because it actually changes everything else too.

[Mr Ares]

The Breaking was an order of magnitude (at least) beyond the conflicts you gave, so why try to pass them off as more or less the same thing. I'm very disappointed in you, child, although your theory is very interesting and generally well argued (at times more so than your opponents viewpoints).

 

To answer, once again, Oh Puissant Tilter of Windmills, Signor Quixote the Self-Confounded, the Breaking, for all its terrible consequences, did not inherently change humanity.  Aes Sedai before, Aes Sedai after.  The same fight they were fighting before (vs Shai'tan) is the same fight they were fighting after.  Using the same primary tool, the One Power.  The world changed, but humanity (who apparently make up the primary threads of the Pattern) did not.

 

For the Pattern to change signifigantly (assuming that each Age Lace is different from the others) the threads making it up have to change inherently.  Maj says that adding Wolfbrothers and Seers and Sniffers and taking away Channelers won't change anything maningful.  (Actually, he just singled out Wolfbrothers, content to ignore both my other examples and the Jordan quote I supplied, in which Jordan apparently thinks such changes are signifigant).

 

So, as the Baby Solomon to your Doddering Icon of Senilitude, I must say, although you are correct that the Breaking was on a much larger and more universal scale than the other examples given, you completely missed the point. It's not the amount of change, its the type.

 

Again ... show me any example or quote from the author that says that either:

 

1. Massive political or geographic upheaval can change the Age, or,

 

2. The Age of Legends is the Second Age.

 

My argument is based on recorded statements from the author that in two instances (and, importantly, the ONLY two instances we have) a change in humanities abilities (discovering channeling, and the "present" emergence of Min, Hurin, and Perrin-like abilities) are indicative of a change in Age.

 

See ... Jordan says, (according to fader, who I see no reason to disbelieve), that Age ending events don't fit any set of criteria.  Events like say, the Breaking.  Or drilling the Bore.  Those are one time events in a time period, and don't define an Age.  What defines an Age (and therefore when an Age changes) are the people in it.  And the people before the Bore had the same abilities as the people after the Bore, and as the people in the "present".  One Age.  Just like the people before the Breaking had the same abilities as the people after the Breaking, and as the people in the "present".  One Age.

Wow, looks like I caught you on a bad day. You obviously weren't paying attention to me when I said you had a good theory, at times better argued than your opponents (it's in that bit you quoted). I did get your point. I'm not entirely sure you got mine, although I am leaning towards yes, and I do admit it could have been clearer. My disagreement was with you saying, basically, that as the collapse of Hawkwing's empire didn't signal the end of an Age then neither should the Breaking, which I felt to be slightly misleading. The fact that the difference is one of scale rather than type is important. If changes of that sort can be considered Age ending then it stands to reason that one being vastly larger than others may be more important than the others in terms of the pattern.We do not know enough to rule out either conclusion definitively at this point in time and with our level of knowledge.

 

Another point, which you may regard as being irrelevant, but I put here for your dissection. Although I do not recall any mention of the Age of Legends being referred to as the Second Age, or of the "Age before the Age of Legends" being referred to as the First Age, surely the fact that people refer to the ABTAOL in that way way indicates a belief (not necessarily accurate, of course) that the AoL constitutes a separate Age to the Third Age. Interestingly, in QotW RJ refers to "the  previous Age to that of the books" rather than "the AoL":

Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books' date=' or at least the end of the Age before that one.[/quote']Statements like that mean that I tend to lean more towards this theory being correct than I would otherwise. Why, after all, would RJ not simply say that it marked the beginning of the AoL, or the end of the First Age? Hopefully, we will learn more of this someday, enough to give us a conclusive answer either way, but as yet I will just say that I can't think of any holes in your theory, but I don't think we know enough yet to completely rule out that the Breking began a new Age. Does anyone else have anything to add?

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

Wow, looks like I caught you on a bad day.

 

Maybe a little ...  ;D ... but mostly I wanted to come up with condescending titles just in the interest of giving you back a little of your own.  I do admit that it came out sounding a little vituperative ... so, my apologies.

 

In any case, you brought up many of the points I was trying to make, so it seems that I've at least communicated my position clearly.  I suppose thats all I can hope to do.

 

And yes, I understood your point that the Breaking was an event that occurred on a meaningfully larger scale than any of the other events I mentioned, and it seems you got my point about the difference not being one of scale but of type.  So, there we are.

 

Just to mention something one last time (directed at everyone generally) I really would like to see anything that anyone can find in which a character, or Jordan, specifically call the Age of Legends the Second Age.  I've looked, really hard, and cannot find one, which is one reason (among the others I've mentioned) that I think the way I do about the Age of Legends being part of the Third Age.

[Mr Ares]

Wow, looks like I caught you on a bad day.

 

Maybe a little ...  ;D ... but mostly I wanted to come up with condescending titles just in the interest of giving you back a little of your own.  I do admit that it came out sounding a little vituperative ... so, my apologies.

 

In any case, you brought up many of the points I was trying to make, so it seems that I've at least communicated my position clearly.  I suppose thats all I can hope to do.

 

And yes, I understood your point that the Breaking was an event that occurred on a meaningfully larger scale than any of the other events I mentioned, and it seems you got my point about the difference not being one of scale but of type.  So, there we are.

 

Just to mention something one last time (directed at everyone generally) I really would like to see anything that anyone can find in which a character, or Jordan, specifically call the Age of Legends the Second Age.  I've looked, really hard, and cannot find one, which is one reason (among the others I've mentioned) that I think the way I do about the Age of Legends being part of the Third Age.

At least you put some effort into those insults, which is more than anyone else here bothers to do. It does indeed seem as if we have understood each others points. I'm also interested to see if anyone has an alternative explanation for why RJ seems to skirt calling the AoL the Second Age, or saying that it is a separate Age to the Third, as in that quote I posted. It does seem slightly odd if it is a different Age...

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

You know, I can't seem to find the question about the abilities on the ToR website. For some reason, it is eluding me.

 

However, I did find this, and I thought I'd share it.

 

Its an excert from the Week 18 answer:

 

"Then there is the fact that there hasn't been a single three thousand year climb from barbarism and disaster, but three roughly one thousand climbs, from the Breaking of the World, from the near total destruction of the Trolloc Wars, which either destroyed or doomed every nation then existing, and from the devastation of the War of the Hundred Years.?"

 

Seems like he views the Breaking on par with the other wars, and not as significantly more devastating, as I had previously thought.

Interesting...

 

The BWB says "...This age is now known as the Age of Legends. It has been well over three thousand years since the end of the Age of Legends..."

 

However, for some reason, I wouldn't put too much stock into that, because it is supposedly written from someone with a Third Age perspective.

 

And the books Cycle of the Dragon, and Breaking of the World, both included in the beginning of EotW after the prologue, both say "Author unknown, the Fourth Age."

 

Could that be a matter of perspective as well?

 

I do agree though, that until RJ says something definite, we can't just assume the breaking marked the end of the age of legends and that this is the third age.

 

Then, in the beginning of EotW "In one age, called the Third Age by some..."

 

It all seems inconclusive, and I would think RJ would tell us more outright, if it was indeed the Third Age.

[GrandpaG]

I know.  It hasn't been a month yet.  But this is still eating at me.

 

Why a wheel?  To me, using a wheel suggests consistency.  The wheel rotates at a fairly constant rate, I assume.  The distance along the face of the wheel from the centerline of one spoke to the centerline of the next spoke should be somewhat constant.  Each age should be equal unless the wheel speeds up and slows down based on whether it's going uphill or down, what kind of terrain it is crossing, and how much propulsion force is applied.  If one age uses some of the saidin and saidar that is used to drive the wheel, would that diminish the available "horsepower" and cause the wheel to slow thus extending that age's duration?  And, would other ages with very little interference pass quickly?  If the randland age ceases to use saidin and saidar, will the next age have more energy available to drive their wheel?  I dunno.

 

And, why a snake eating it's tail?  Entangled in the spokes?  Won't it get run over if it doesn't let go?  The snake has something to do with Aes Sedai.  They're trying to hang on to the top of the wheel.

The snake is touching three of the seven spokes and four of the seven spaces between the spokes (Ages).  So, the wheel travels unhindered for four spokes or three Ages, then the snake (Aes Sedai) inhibits the wheel for three spokes or four Ages.  Unless the snake doesn't let go in which case there is a terrific THUMP... :'(

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Somehow I think the serpent is actually a symbol for the one power. The serpent, then, would be driving the wheel constantly.

 

Im not sure how it came to be viewed as a serpent, but perhaps it has something to do with the serpentine figure on the Dragon's banner and the name "Dragon."

 

I wouldnt think too literally about how many ages the snake touches, though it would be interesting if it represented how many ages were touched by the OP.

 

But I would think it would have to be four though, because the ability to channel should not get lost until towards the end of the Fourth Age, if not later.

 

And there was channeling in the First Age, where it was used to create Portal Stones.

 

And the seventh age would be where all the stories of astronauts (Lenn and Salya) and Merk and Mosk and their lances of fire (America and Moscow, with nuclear weapons) appeared. And that would be our age, the Age of Technology.

[GrandpaG]

Which revolution of the wheel did the portal stones first show up in?  How many more before they have to be reinvented?  Let me clarify.  I consider one revolution as start of an age until that age starts again.  The wheel has travelled through thousands upon millions of revolutions.  One of those contained the Age in which the dinosaurs existed.  Or do they reappear each time their Age reappears?  If one Age equals approximately 3000 years, then seven ages or one revolution would be about 21,000 years.  The dinosaurs were supposedly extinct many, many revolutions ago.  Why does Mosc and Merc have to be on this revolution?  It could be several revolutions yet to come if the wheel at some time retraces it's former path(s).  Or, maybe it comes to a steep mountain and goes up for a while then rolls back down in the rut that was previously made.

In an age called the third age by some an age long gone and an age yet to come the wind was not the beginning for there are no beginnings (or something like that).  The wheel will turn until the Dark One can steal the Eye of the World (sight blinder).  Enough pure saidin to stop the motion of the wheel.  All of the energy in the universe...gone...forever.  Nothing but total darkness...everywhere.  Sorry.  Drifted off topic.  Would I lie to you?

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

They have to be on this revolution because otherwise, they would have already been forgotten. Remember the catechism "History becomes legend, legend fades to myth, and even myth is long gone when the age that gave birth to it surfaces again."

 

About the dinosaurs, is it possible that channeling messed up carbon dating processes? Maybe by changing the half-life of carbon or whatever? Im not too sure how the carbon dating process works, so I wouldnt know.

 

You know, dinosuars couldnt be from millions of years ago, or at least probably not, because the amount of destruction wrought by 20,000 revolutions of the wheel (20,000 or more breakings) would surely cover the remains of the dinosaurs pretty deep.

 

Is it possible that something happens in the Fourth Age?

 

Might it be that dinosaurs existed in the First Age, and were gradually wiped out with the use of channeling? Could it be that the radiation from Merc and Mosk fighting actually created the dinosaurs by causing sufficient mutation?

 

Of course, for the Wheel to be true, Evolution has to be false...

[GrandpaG]

Or, maybe the first age belonged to the dinosaurs and because they were so big and heavy the wheel couldn't turn with them loading it down so their age last millions of years.  Then, the second age was our time, Merc and Mosc, we discover channelling, I take over the world and create the portal stones so I can visit my brothers the Finns over in Finnland.  After I die, after living to be about a thousand because I know how to do healing on myself, I have created the Age of Legends which is actually a sub age of my age.  The rest, as they say, is history.  Case closed. ;D

 

Have a good weekend!

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

You know, actually, I was just thinking, evolution could be true in the Wheel of Time universe.

 

But it would require that the nuclear war that broke the world at the end of the seventh age destroyed all life, and life was gradually rebuilt in the first age through evolutionary processes.

 

However, it would be a bit ridiculous if one age is three thousand years and another 4 billion...

[Belar]

Ok im going to go out on a limb in this one, i think the actual age we are in is the 6th age, only going by the thought that the 7th age is the previous age the world almost destroyed itself in neulear holocaust, my thinking for this is at the end of aMoL we are effective seeing the DOs prison fully re-sealed (i hopee).

 

Add to this the centres of learning and invention rand created (we have already seen the return of steam engines due to this), this leads me to beleive we are entring this age of tecnology again (modern age) whare at the end of the next age known as the 4th age by some.. humans go and blow themselves up again thus loosing all konwlage and tecnology they had built up including channeling, which leads to barbarism and humans going back to there base instincts such as wolfbrothers running with the wolves again.

 

hence the wheel is reset and gone its full circle and we all begin again :)