Can you break an age without breaking the world?

[GrandpaG]

What actually marks the end of one age and the start of the next?

 

We have sketchy information about the end of the Second Age or the Age of Legends...basically, the male AS physically ravaged the land until nothing was the same as it had been.  At some point, which differs depending upon the calendar being used, the old age ended and the new one, the Third Age or the present age, started.

 

Rand has already caused great upheaval among the Aiel, Carheinin, Tairens, Illianers, Sea Folk/Amalayans, and Caemlyners.  He has also had lesser/indirect impact on the Seanchan, Ebou Daris, borderlanders, and Tanchicans.  The only place not directly affected that we know of is Demandred's hiding place (Shara)...which will be as affected as anyplace else by TG.  How much chaos will it take before the Third Age dies and the Fourth Age begins?  Or, did the Fourth Age actually begin already?  Is it mandatory that TG happen before the next age can begin?  We know that there will be another age after this one...when will it start?

 

I had a week away from DM and did too much thinking in my idle time.

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A bad day at DM is better than a good day on vacation! :)

[loki redfern]

its usually some defining point i would think, but not always having to be a violent one, ie the age of legends probably started with the first channeler making first contact with the source. i would have thought that th fourth age would be started by th end of TG..if it starts at all

[RobertAlexWillis]

This has been a subject of some debate in the past ... and I think my view on it is not one that is widely held.  But I still think I'm right (no surprise there).

 

See, I don't think the Age of Legends was the second Age at all.  I think it was the first half of the third Age.  The word "Age" can be used multiple ways by different people, and I think the "Age" of Legends is not the same as an "Age" of the Wheel.

 

Now, my reasons.

 

I think the changing of an Age of the Wheel requires a fundamental change in the way the world works, and the abilities of the people in it.  For example, Jordan has said that: "Min, and the sniffers, and wolfbrothers appearing are all highly indicative, you know. New abilities, for this Age, are appearing, and that in itself indicates great changes coming. Great changes underway. Min's abilities will not remain unique; we have already seen one wolfbrother besides Perrin and Elyas, though a pitiful soul who couldn't master his gift, and there will be other sniffers. The Age is changing. The Wheel never stands still."  ( http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152'>http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152 )This says to me that one of the primary requirements for an "Age change" is a change in the abilities of the population.  Again, this is implied here:  "Women certainly can be wolfbrothers, though the term would be wolfsisters. A wolfbrother or wolfsister reborn in another age would only be a wolfbrother or wolfsister again if that were possible in that Age."  (emphasis added, found here: http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=152 )  Again:  "The first people to discover the ability to channel learned through trial and error, with fairly high casualty rates until they learned enough not to kill themselves accidentally. Their appearance marked the beginning of the previous Age to that of the books, or at least the end of the Age before that one. (emphasis added, same reference).

 

We know that we are coming to the end of the Third Age.  And we also know that the percentage of the population that can channel is decreasing, while new abilities are appearing.  All of this fits into the pattern (or is it Pattern?  ;) ) that I have described.

 

So, some conclusions:

 

1. The Age of Legends is part of the Third Age.

 

While the Age of Legends did end cataclysmically, it did not end with a change in the nature of humanity or humanity's abilities.  Channeling was the primary "special power" before the Breaking, and remains so until and through the events in the books.  So, the switch from Age of Legends to "present" times does not meet the criteria of "basic change" that seems to indicate a shift in the Ages of the Wheel.

 

2. The Fourth Age will see the end of Channeling.

 

Channeling seems to be on the way out, despite the recent surge in people found by the Tower.  That surge is only because of a change in Egwene's acceptance standards, not in the population.  And with the appearance of new abilities, it seems that channeling will be what is lost.

 

Well, there it is.  To summarize my personal opinion in answer to the original question:

 

The end of an Age of the Wheel is marked by a fundamental change in the abilities of humanity, or the inherent nature of the world.  It does not have to be marked by violent upheaval, although violent upheaval often accompanies change of that magnitude.

[GrandpaG]

We don't seem to be given a specific yardstick to measure with.  I hadn't considered before that the present (third) age might not have begun other than at the end of the Age of Legends.  And, the references to the next (fourth) age do not give me a definite feel for whether they occur tomorrow (near future) or several decades down the road (or for that matter, centuries).  I try to imagine a huge wheel slowly turning.  At the point of contact to the ground, the surface of the wheel that touches is spread out.  Even when the spoke points straight down, the wheel is being supported for some distance in both directions from the centerline of the spoke.  But, I assume that the start/stop point of each Age is the exact instant that the imaginary centerline passes by.  Events begun continue.  The new age begins.  Events begun in the old age gradually end as the wheel turns.  Man...I'm getting into this stuff WAY to deep!

 

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It's only a story...it's not real...it's only a story... ;)

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

well, I dont think the ability to channel is fading out...

 

Remember, the ability only probably has to fade sometime before the sixth or seventh age, so it can be relearned in the first age, assuming it follows the basic pattern of this revolution.

 

And one of the prophecies mentions the "guardian balancing out the servant." It goes on to say that the battle was done, but the world not done with the battle. This leads me to believe that the servants(Aes Sedai) and guardians (Asha'man) will still be able to channel, and still dislike each other. If neither side could channel, this wouldn't be too big of an issue.

 

The children's chant "Let the Lord of Chaos Rule" comes from a game in Great Arvalon (aka Tar Valon). It wouldn't be such a great place if they didn't have channelers, now would it?

 

Besides, I have the feeling that Elaida's palace is just to convienient for the asha'man not to use it.

[Majsju]

I think that the ability to channel will start to fade eventually, and when it does it will mark the end of (probably) the 4th Age.

 

As for "the Guardians balancing the Servants", lets just look at the length of the 3rd Age, which is roughly 3000 years. We have no information if the Ages are even close to similar in length, but lets say for the sake of it that the 4th Age is 3000 years as well. That is plenty of time for some balancing to be done.

 

Although I suspec that the 3rd Age is one of, if not the shortest Age

[GrandpaG]

I envision the spokes of a wheel being equal distances apart.  I used to assume that the distance was apx 3000 years...now I'm not so sure.  I don't remember reading anywhere that 3000 years is the life expectancy of an age.  But, if you tell the AS that that's what prophecy says they'll make sure it happens that way (because they are the ultimate manipulators).

[fader6818]

I asked Robert Jordan this same question at the Louisville Kentucky signing of Knife of Dreams. I was hoping to phrase the question in a way that wouldn't get a RAFO, but he evaded it well. :)

 

I ... asked. “Other than the third age, obviously, what events signal the end or the beginning of other Ages?”

 

He explained that, SOME call the “current” age the Third Age. He made it very clear that not everyone does, or has. He then said that Age ending events don’t fit a certain set of critera, but “You’ll know it when you see it.”

 

This signing was recorded, but sadly, the only link I have to it is in that article and is no longer there. ;(

 

http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=234

[Majsju]

I envision the spokes of a wheel being equal distances apart.  I used to assume that the distance was apx 3000 years...now I'm not so sure.  I don't remember reading anywhere that 3000 years is the life expectancy of an age.  But, if you tell the AS that that's what prophecy says they'll make sure it happens that way (because they are the ultimate manipulators).

 

Keep in mind that the Wheel is only a symbol of circular time with ever-repeating Ages. Just because spokes tend to fit a certain way on a real wheel, that does not mean anything for the Wheel.

 

As for 3000 years, the approximate length of the 3rd Age, the time from the death of LTT til today. That's the only context 3000 years is mentioned in the books. And well, in this case I think we can safely assume that the 3rd Age will not last much longer...

[GrandpaG]

That phrase has always bothered me: "called the third age by some".

 

It makes the whole picture as solid as Jello.

 

I used to rely on the LTT rebirth, too.  The only part of that that eats at me is in the epilogue of book 1 where Ismael (in the present age I assume) tells LTT that they have been through this thousands of times.  That means thousands of ages.  Every age was unique.  Some ages must NOT have had LTT in them (possibly most).  It all adds up to confusion.  A wheel is constant.  Ages are flexible.  A wagon leaves a different trail on bedrock outcrops than it does through mud bogs.  The wheel keeps turning.  Always the same.  Always different.  3000 years?  LTT to the next LTT?  And then you throw in the idea that the pattern is being manipulated for the entertainment of the Creator and DO like a Fisher game...new age...new game.  Sometimes DO wins.  Sometimes Creator wins.  LTT/Rand is the Fisher being manipulated by pet AS.  Until the next age.  Then it starts over.  Forever.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Somehow I'm under the impression that the Creator has been battling the DO, both by proxy, since the creation of the Wheel.

 

The Dragon, who in the Third Age (or called so by some) is known as Rand Al'Thor, is the creator's champion. And Ishamael, called Elan Morin Tedronai before he went to the shadow, is the DO's champion.

 

Honestly, I don't believe the stuff about the DO winning. It never explicity states that the DO has ever won. I only think it would take one time...

 

And the stuff about the Dragon turning evil in some turnings of the wheel...Could that have been a lie? Because I've always thought that if the Dragon had ever turned to the Shadow, the darkness would win. Ishamael could've been simply speculating, since he would not have known in truth anyways.

 

But if it is true about the Dragon going to the DO sometimes, I can't help but wonder if the two souls (Ishamael and Lews Therin) are interchangeable. That would be interesting. Because that would mean that either one might be a champion for one side in a single age, and that for the DO to win, he must have both souls on his side.

[Safia al-Maaz]

I completely agree with RAW.  That is actually basically what I was going to write, then saw he'd covered it all. 

 

Therefore, there ARE some people who share that view RAW ;)

 

EDIT: Except for the whole no channeling thing for.  I don't see that coming any time sooner.

[RobertAlexWillis]

Thanks Safia!

 

There is a comment that Herid Fel makes that first got me thinking in this direction (that is, that the Age of Legends is actually part of the Third Age).  He said this to Rand, when they were discussing the Bore.  (From Lord of Chaos, chapter 18):

 

"Unless you think the Creator made the Dark One's prison with a hole and a patch to begin with?"  His eyebrows waggled at the suggestion.  "No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more.  Hmmmm.  I wonder if they called it the Third Age?"

 

Herid Fel regards the Third Age as beginning before the Bore was drilled, so that the Prison was whole at the beginning of it.  And therefore, it must be "whole again when the Third Age comes once more".  But that would mean that the Age of Legends is part of the Third Age, since, if the Prison must be whole at the beginning of that Age, it couldn't have started at the Breaking, or Lews Therin's death (since obviously, the Bore had already been made by then).

 

The only criterion I can find anywhere that Jordan links definitively with changing Ages is a changing of abilities, mostly in humans.  By that standard, the Age of Legends is part of the Third Age.  Also, I cannot find anywhere that Jordan actually says that the Age of Legends is the Second Age. 

 

It is my personal opinion that the Third Age is the only one in which the ability to channel is present, that is, that the beginning of the Third Age is when people discover that ability, and that the Third Age ends when that ability fades from the populace.  That is, of course, the Age when the Dark One is most likely to break free, since channeling accesses the Power that can create the Bore, and it is also the Age that is best equipped to fight Shai'tan.

[maayanbar]

Ummmmmm, I agree and disagree with you. you wrote:

I think the changing of an Age of the Wheel requires a fundamental change in the way the world works, and the abilities of the people in it.

.

 

I think that the drilling of the bore marks exactly that, and therefore marks the beginning f the so-called third age. After that the world was changed completely. The presence of the DO indeed resulted in a fundamental change in the way the world works. I don't think this change must be only in magical powers like channeling etc. Its also the way of living, the disappearance of species (like greenmen and who knows what else), the appearance of trollocs, the loss of civilization as known until then. Its kinda like the end of the classic era and the beginning of the dark age in the history of Europe but in a more magnificent way  ;).

 

The reduced in the ability to channel can be explained nicely by the rules and regulations of the current age, that are based on the taint hence the destructuion of channeling men. Now, we know there is a genetic factor to that ability (like that SF family with 5 channelers). We also know that it might be complex and controlloed by more than one gene (the fact that it is a quantitative trait and there are different strengths). Taking men out of the equation of course would affect both the ability and how much it is spread, but now that the taint is removed, rules are going to change. Add Egwen and her innovativeness and channeling will become stronger again. Lets consider Elayne's babies, they have a really massive potential.

well, these are the thoughts of a hmble new fan to the series...

[Majsju]

That phrase has always bothered me: "called the third age by some".

 

It makes the whole picture as solid as Jello.

 

I used to rely on the LTT rebirth, too.  The only part of that that eats at me is in the epilogue of book 1 where Ismael (in the present age I assume) tells LTT that they have been through this thousands of times.  That means thousands of ages.  Every age was unique.  Some ages must NOT have had LTT in them (possibly most).  It all adds up to confusion.  A wheel is constant.  Ages are flexible.  A wagon leaves a different trail on bedrock outcrops than it does through mud bogs.  The wheel keeps turning.  Always the same.  Always different.  3000 years?  LTT to the next LTT?  And then you throw in the idea that the pattern is being manipulated for the entertainment of the Creator and DO like a Fisher game...new age...new game.  Sometimes DO wins.  Sometimes Creator wins.  LTT/Rand is the Fisher being manipulated by pet AS.  Until the next age.  Then it starts over.  Forever.

 

To use RJs own words,

You believe Ishamael??? Sorry, man, but c’mon!

[RobertAlexWillis]

I think that the drilling of the bore marks exactly that, and therefore marks the beginning f the so-called third age.

 

And yet, every Jordan quote I can find on the subject specifically cites changing abilities.  If you have some other source, something that he said that I've missed, I would very much like to see it (I don't mean that in a mean or sarcastic way, I'd really like to see it!)

 

Its kinda like the end of the classic era and the beginning of the dark age in the history of Europe but in a more magnificent way

 

I understand that concept, but if we look at it that way, you'd have to start a new Age after the Trolloc Wars, and after the War of the Hundred Years.  Those were both political upheavals that completely changed the world.  Every single nation that existed at the beginning of each conflicts ceased to exist by the end of them.

 

The reduced in the ability to channel can be explained nicely by the rules and regulations of the current age, that are based on the taint hence the destructuion of channeling men.  Now, we know there is a genetic factor to that ability (like that SF family with 5 channelers). We also know that it might be complex and controlloed by more than one gene (the fact that it is a quantitative trait and there are different strengths). Taking men out of the equation of course would affect both the ability and how much it is spread, but now that the taint is removed, rules are going to change. Add Egwen and her innovativeness and channeling will become stronger again. Lets consider Elayne's babies, they have a really massive potential.

 

It could happen that way.  The only thing is ... genetics is only one component of it.  I mean, if the numbers could be reduced to 1 percent of the population (which is where RJ says it is now), and then just ... come back, according to the laws of genetics which we know ... there would be no Ages without channelers.  Since we know that there are, (RJ has said so) the Pattern must have some way to eliminate it, despite channelers' procreative urges.

 

And I know people are psyched about Elayne's kids but ... I would just love it if neither could channel a spark.

 

As for Ishamael ... Ishy's "champion vs champion" bit always seemed to be evidence of jealousy and egotism.  He knew Lews Therin was the actual champion of the Light ... the Dark One probably told him so.  But Ishy being woven out again and again as his opponent?  Maybe Shai'tan told him that too, but it sounds like a sop to his ego.

 

The Dark One has certainly been battling the Dragon since the Wheel started turning.  I just don't think Ishy's been the man for more than this round.

[Majsju]

I think that the drilling of the bore marks exactly that, and therefore marks the beginning f the so-called third age.

 

And yet, every Jordan quote I can find on the subject specifically cites changing abilities.  If you have some other source, something that he said that I've missed, I would very much like to see it (I don't mean that in a mean or sarcastic way, I'd really like to see it!)

 

What Fader brought up sounds pretty clear to me in terms of whether or not there are any criterias set in stone...

He explained that, SOME call the “current” age the Third Age. He made it very clear that not everyone does, or has. He then said that Age ending events don’t fit a certain set of critera, but “You’ll know it when you see it.”

 

While it does seem quite obvious that changes regarding human abilities heralds a new Age, there is nothing that says this is something that always happens. We only know of one change that initself brought a new Age, the discovery of channeling. Obviously, the fading of channeling will be another.

 

But wolfbrothers, Mins ability, Hurins sniffing if you want, these things however bizarro they may seem does not change society one bit.

[RobertAlexWillis]

See Maj, to me, that phrase "Age ending events don’t fit a certain set of critera" means that an Age doesn't always end with a "Last Battle", or in a violent fit of bloodshed.  There isn't a sequence of events, rather, there is a change in the people.  Channeling may or may not have been discovered on a battlefield, but it definitely meant a change in the Age.  And its not the events of Tarmon Gaidon that will move Randland into the next Age, but a change in the populace as a whole.

 

I've admitted from the start that this is simply my opinion.  I doubt Jordan will make it any clearer, at least until the books are done.  But this is how I see the pattern which emerges from Herid Fel's comments in the books, and the quotes from Jordan I supplied earlier.  Jordan consistently correlates changing abilities with a change in Age, and Fel (who Jordan seems to have put in as a spokesperson for the philosophy of the Wheel, and who understood the concepts clearly enough that the Shadow had his torn apart) seems to regard the Age of Legends as part of the Third Age, which would also indicate this pattern; namely, that it is not events of upheaval and environmental change that make a different Age, but changes in the people who lives are the threads of the Pattern.

[Majsju]

That an Age does not have to end with a great battle seems fairly obvious, if we look at what event that lead to the Age of Legends, namely the discovery of channeling. A discovery that caused a huge change in society without necessarily any great amount of violence.

 

But what brough a new Age was hardly the mere existence of people being able to channel. It was because they used this ability to change society.

 

That Wolfboy finds more buddies to go sniffing around with may seem all cute and fluffy, but it will hardly have any great effect on society as a whole. But yet, you want to suggest that we could have a new age just because there are people with new abilites snooping around, even though if that has zero effect on the lives of the majority, even if the majority not prone to sniff eachother in the butt go on with their lives as usual?

 

A new age must be caused by something that effects pretty much all people. Perrin & friends are a consequence of a new age waiting around the corner, they are not causing the new age to come.

[maayanbar]

And yet, every Jordan quote I can find on the subject specifically cites changing abilities.  If you have some other source, something that he said that I've missed, I would very much like to see it (I don't mean that in a mean or sarcastic way, I'd really like to see it!)

 

Unfortinately, I don't have quotes from RJ, I use only my own logic and thoughts as I'm a new WOT fan and you are probably much more knowledgable. I'd very much appreciate your refferal to sources like that which can help me focus on matters :). Thinking of your point though, I do think that the inabillity of men to channel through the third due to the taint age IS a major change of abilities. Has he mentioned the mechanism by which this change of abillities must come? should it always be gradual and unaffected by outer factors and forces?

 

Quote

Its kinda like the end of the classic era and the beginning of the dark age in the history of Europe but in a more magnificent way.

 

I understand that concept, but if we look at it that way, you'd have to start a new Age after the Trolloc Wars, and after the War of the Hundred Years.  Those were both political upheavals that completely changed the world.  Every single nation that existed at the beginning of each conflicts ceased to exist by the end of them.

 

Well, between the classic era and Renaissans there had been many wars and political changes, but its not war that brought modern life, its knowledge. I think that the power behind changes is either the finding or the loosing of knowledge and understanding of the world. In this that fact the DO caused the loss of knowledge (like "the song:) while Rand began his universities. I find that its a great way to see the change of an age.

 

The only thing is ... genetics is only one component of it.  I mean, if the numbers could be reduced to 1 percent of the population (which is where RJ says it is now), and then just ... come back, according to the laws of genetics which we know ... there would be no Ages without channelers.  Since we know that there are, (RJ has said so) the Pattern must have some way to eliminate it, despite channelers' procreative urges.

Well there is a way to eliminate genetic traits only from a biological point of view. Th key to understanding it in my point is forkroot - with the finding of forkroot we realize that channeling people have some phisiological similarities (we also see it with the ability to heal gentling). What if there is a plague that only channelers are sensitive to, like a virus that attacks that "thing" that makes them able to channel, then channelers would probably be extinct, almost all of them. now, if some are saved but never learned how to touch the sorce and channel, then there could be ages without channeling until it is again re-discovered. In fact its quite a basic rule in evolution.

 

 

[Roxinos]

I don't agree with RAW (as he seems to be the figurehead of one set of beliefs).

 

While a change in the ability of a group of people is almost certain to herald the coming of the new Age, I don't think that such is the only indication or necessarily a prerequisite for the new Age. I've always felt that most people in the world view the Breaking of the World as the marking of the Age of Legends, and the Age of Legends being the subheading for the Second Age (or what it is called by some). Which brings me to my next point.

 

Just because it is "called by some" doesn't mean that it isn't considered an Age in general. I think that's only referring to the number of the Age. After all, we could very easily consider the Age which we read to be the Seventh Age, the Age that came before it to be the Sixth, and the Age to come after the First Age. After all, doesn't it make sense that the Age where everyone is unable to channel, as seems to be the common consensus of what will happen after Tarmon Gaidon, would be considered the First Age? Or at least, that's what some would consider it.

 

Anyway, what I'm saying is that while there is no evidence to what truly marks the shifting of the Ages, it seems, at least it seems to me, to have been implied by most characters, except scholars like Herid (but scholars tend to delve into the metaphysical, wouldn't you think? He's a bit of a philosopher), that the Age of Legends is widely considered to be the Second Age. But since no one can define what each of the Ages are, for all we know, the Age where channelers first appeared, the Age of Legends, and the Third Age are all one and the same.

 

I think it's safer to assume that the Age of Legends is the Second Age, and the Age which we deal with in the books are the Third Age. After all, there was a major shift in the way the world worked after the Breaking of the World. Just look at the rise of the Aes Sedai and what their aims were.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

It is my personal opinion that the Third Age is the only one in which the ability to channel is present, that is, that the beginning of the Third Age is when people discover that ability, and that the Third Age ends when that ability fades from the populace.  That is, of course, the Age when the Dark One is most likely to break free, since channeling accesses the Power that can create the Bore, and it is also the Age that is best equipped to fight Shai'tan.

 

Well, actually I have to disagree. I think that channeling was discovered in the First Age (or what we would consider as the first age). Remember, the BWB suggests that the portal stones outdate the Age of Legends (or what you are consider part of the "third age"). For that reason, I think that channeling began in the first age. I believe that the seventh age consisted of a nuclear war, as described in one of those stories in EotW as "Merc [America] and Mosk[Moscow, as in Russia] and their lances of fire". That was supposedly a legend, but we all know that the turning of the wheel makes history become legend, then legend become myth.

 

But basically, I think the seventh age had technology, and ended with a nuclear warfare. Then, the first age was sort of a dark period of time where channeling was rediscovered, leading up to the second/third age, a time of great prosperity which ended with the Last Battle.

 

But the thing about calling it the third age is this...

 

How would they know it was the "third age?" Even if it fit the criteria, they would've had to have been counting ages since the dawn of time. They would have to be like "Well, so there have been 24 ages so far, so 3 turnings of the wheel, plus two ages, so we're in the third age."

 

See what Im saying... I think that is what Herid Fel realized, is that unless you've been keeping track of how many ages have passed since the dawn of time, you can't truly know what age it is.

[Majsju]

That some call the Age we read about the 3rd Age probably comes from Aes Sedai, some of them refer to the Age before AoL, and have if not knowledge at least a few hints of things from that Age. Thus, we have the age before the AoL as the oldexst Age people have any kind of knowledge about, even if if it's limited to fragments about fragments about a vague theory. And as such that age is considered the 1st Age, making the AoL the 2nd, and this the 3rd.

 

It,s of course a matter of where you start looking, and the logic thing to do is to start where you stand.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Which would be interesting, because if there is about a 3-age memory span, each age will call itself the third age...

 

So the people in the second age probably remembered the seventh age, and called the age they lived in the third age...

[Majsju]

Not necessarily, the AoL was extremely advanced, they might very well have known about more ages. Other ages might be very primitive, to the point that even the knowledge about the Wheel is reduced to the whisper of a myth, and such age would probably not call themselves anything, except "right here, right now" (or 2007 *g*)