S3E8 - He Who Comes With The Dawn

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 4/20/2025 at 2:11 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

Putting characters in mortal danger and then quickly resolving that danger does not equal 'fakeout death'.

 

Was it fair to pull back on Moiraine's death after 'Chechov's Gun'-ning it all season? That's debatable, but it did allow them to swerve us all with Siuan's death.

Expand  

The other thing I expect it to do is make it more of an impact if / when it does happen.  I'm leaning more and more towards Moraine is Cadsuane, so I don't know if they'll play it as a fake out, or if they go through the Mayene Door in Tear late next season, and they move Mat's rescue up in order to get Moraine back in time to be Caddy, plus break the bond and send Lan to Nynaeve.

[Mailman]

  On 4/20/2025 at 3:58 AM, DaddyFinn said:

Plans changed after Rand rejected Lanfear.

Expand  

Except Lanfear left him with his teacher.

What was Lanfears plan with giving Couladin the dragons? It can;t have been to isolate Rand while going after Moiraine as there could be no way she would know Moiraine would go off into the desert solo.

[Mailman]

  On 4/20/2025 at 2:11 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

Putting characters in mortal danger and then quickly resolving that danger does not equal 'fakeout death'.

 

Was it fair to pull back on Moiraine's death after 'Chechov's Gun'-ning it all season? That's debatable, but it did allow them to swerve us all with Siuan's death.

Expand  

mortal danger is slightly different to giving them grievous wounds that they are completely over in the next scene.

[Ayleeann]

I read all 13 books a long time ago. I decided after the 1st season to get over that it’s not only not following the books well, but they are jumping all over the place and certain scenes never happened in the books and many are just out of place. I didn’t watch season 2 but decided to just approach it (starting late with season 2) as a fantasy show and not a true telling of the 13 novels I loved. 

😕 

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/20/2025 at 5:57 AM, Mailman said:

mortal danger is slightly different to giving them grievous wounds that they are completely over in the next scene

Expand  

 

It really isn't.

 

I'm not sure how familiar you might be with the old radio or TV Serial format, but one of the things that those programs almost always did was to repeatedly leave their characters in Temporary Peril cliffhanger situations that would pretty quickly be rectified/resolved by the next time audiences saw said characters.

 

WoT having characters end up with life-threatening injuries that get quickly healed is in the spirit of the old Serial Cliffhanger storytelling, but it has also started becoming a crutch that is kind of detrimental to the believability of what they're trying to do due to the fact that WoT isn't formatted like an old Serial.

[Mailman]

  On 4/20/2025 at 6:36 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

It really isn't.

 

I'm not sure how familiar you might be with the old radio or TV Serial format, but one of the things that those programs almost always did was to repeatedly leave their characters in Temporary Peril cliffhanger situations that would pretty quickly be rectified/resolved by the next time audiences saw said characters.

 

WoT having characters end up with life-threatening injuries that get quickly healed is in the spirit of the old Serial Cliffhanger storytelling, but it has also started becoming a crutch that is kind of detrimental to the believability of what they're trying to do due to the fact that WoT isn't formatted like an old Serial.

Expand  

I think you have largely addressed the issue in your last paragraph.

 

The peril does not have to be huge physical wounds, but when you have 8 episodes and around 20 serious injuries across those episodes that are just insta fixed with no cost to the fixer or fixed it becomes laughable.

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/20/2025 at 8:40 AM, Mailman said:

The peril does not have to be huge physical wounds, but when you have 8 episodes and around 20 serious injuries across those episodes that are just insta fixed with no cost to the fixer or fixed it becomes laughable.

Expand  

 

I have a feeling that because it keeps happening, this will always be an element of the show's writing that some people are going to dislike.

 

I did think it was important, though, to define said element for what it actually is - Temporary Peril - rather than what it isn't, which is 'fakeout death'.

[Vosha]

Sorry if I missed this somewhere else, but is anyone talking about the vision/hallucination Rand had of a black-clad figure in the ridge right before talking to Moiraine?  Haven’t seen much mentioned and it’s driving me crazy!

[Mirefox]

  On 4/19/2025 at 10:49 PM, DigificWriter said:

I didn't really want to talk about this earlier, but the show did give us a "Ned Stark moment", just with a character that nobody was expecting.

Expand  

The difference being that Ned was a strong leader, beloved character, seemingly the main character, etc., etc.

 

Susan was horribly realized in the show.  She wasn’t likable, she wasn’t all that politically astute, and her role hardly mattered.  Talk an out pulling punches with major character deaths.  They couldn’t have killed a more inconsequential “main” character as far as the show goes.

[Samt]

  On 4/20/2025 at 12:38 PM, DigificWriter said:

 

I have a feeling that because it keeps happening, this will always be an element of the show's writing that some people are going to dislike.

 

I did think it was important, though, to define said element for what it actually is - Temporary Peril - rather than what it isn't, which is 'fakeout death'.

Expand  

You can define your terms how you like.  The reason I think people are using the term “fakeout death” is that the show is creating the problems that fakeout deaths create in that it undermines the stakes and sense of mortal peril.  If characters are fighting, I know from general life knowledge that if one of them gets stabbed through the chest, it will be fatal.  Thus, I sense the peril and understand that the current conflict is high stakes.  However, if it’s established in the universe that characters can simply heal each other from wounds that should be fatal, I no longer know what the stakes are.  We are no longer in a universe where real world judgment can tell us what mortal peril even looks like.  

[Mirefox]

  On 4/19/2025 at 12:48 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

 

Having Suian die at the coup makes sense, when you have so much to prune.
 

Expand  

 

These are the kind of statements that make no sense to me.  If they are finding it necessary to “prune” characters in order to fit this story into a more time-constrained medium, how do they justify that while at the same time giving inordinate amounts of time to secondary, tertiary, and even barely-mentioned characters like Maksim?

 

People tried to use this same style of argument when they claimed certain story beats needed to be changed or eliminated in order to adapt the material to television but at the same time tried to justify made-up arcs like the whole wardrobe funeral episode or Moiraine’s journey that overwhelmed the beginning of season 2.

[Mirefox]

  On 4/20/2025 at 6:36 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

It really isn't.

 

I'm not sure how familiar you might be with the old radio or TV Serial format, but one of the things that those programs almost always did was to repeatedly leave their characters in Temporary Peril cliffhanger situations that would pretty quickly be rectified/resolved by the next time audiences saw said characters.

 

WoT having characters end up with life-threatening injuries that get quickly healed is in the spirit of the old Serial Cliffhanger storytelling, but it has also started becoming a crutch that is kind of detrimental to the believability of what they're trying to do due to the fact that WoT isn't formatted like an old Serial.

Expand  

It always reminds me of the Hardy Boys books I grew up on as a kid; every chapter ended with some mini-cliffhanger.  That worked to keep kids engaged but it would be ridiculous in a competent adult novel.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 4/20/2025 at 2:25 PM, Mirefox said:

 

These are the kind of statements that make no sense to me.  If they are finding it necessary to “prune” characters in order to fit this story into a more time-constrained medium, how do they justify that while at the same time giving inordinate amounts of time to secondary, tertiary, and even barely-mentioned characters like Maksim?

 

People tried to use this same style of argument when they claimed certain story beats needed to be changed or eliminated in order to adapt the material to television but at the same time tried to justify made-up arcs like the whole wardrobe funeral episode or Moiraine’s journey that overwhelmed the beginning of season 2.

Expand  

Reducing Maksim's role or changing the episode with Steppin (which I agree was an odd inclusion) does not mean that suddenly there is time follow every story arc. I was specifically talking about Suian's arc for the rest of the story. Given the actress probably has other things to do than play a bit character in the background in scenes where lots of characters will have to be chopped, that the rest of her arc does not really impact the story, that if she remains they will need to keep spending time on her relationship with Moiraine (if they keep that character), and many other things, I would say it was a reasonable decision. 

 

There is no connection between making cuts to the story in one place and not in others. Whether Steppin's episode was a good or a bad idea, that has no influence on the decision to execute Suian. The story must be hugely pruned to fit into the schedule they have, that is a fact not an opinion. How well they have gone about it is subjective. 

 

But your argument that if some characters are given more screentime then others should not get less is nonsensical. 

[Mirefox]

  On 4/20/2025 at 2:36 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Reducing Maksim's role or changing the episode with Steppin (which I agree was an odd inclusion) does not mean that suddenly there is time follow every story arc. I was specifically talking about Suian's arc for the rest of the story. Given the actress probably has other things to do than play a bit character in the background in scenes where lots of characters will have to be chopped, that the rest of her arc does not really impact the story, that if she remains they will need to keep spending time on her relationship with Moiraine (if they keep that character), and many other things, I would say it was a reasonable decision. 

 

There is no connection between making cuts to the story in one place and not in others. Whether Steppin's episode was a good or a bad idea, that has no influence on the decision to execute Suian. The story must be hugely pruned to fit into the schedule they have, that is a fact not an opinion. How well they have gone about it is subjective. 

 

But your argument that if some characters are given more screentime then others should not get less is nonsensical. 

Expand  

My argument is simply that nobody can sensibly make the argument that certain elements had to be cut from the IP, whether they be storylines, characters, etc. because of time/episode limitations whilst simultaneously defending storylines, characters, etc. completely made up by Rafe Judkins.  Those are two wholly incompatible arguments.

Edited April 20 by Mirefox

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

  On 4/20/2025 at 2:50 PM, Mirefox said:

My argument is simply that nobody can sensibly make the argument that certain elements had to be cut from the IP, whether they be storylines, characters, etc. whilst simultaneously defending storylines, characters, etc. completely made up by Rafe Judkins.  Those are two wholly incompatible arguments.

Expand  

No they aren't. It is a fact that to fit everything into the time they have things have to be cut and changed. You cannot have all 2,793 (or however many it is) named characters in the show.

 

Things can be added to more easily explain things, or to keep things consistent, or any of a myriad of reasons. 

 

This does not mean that all additions are good and necessary, nor that all cuttings are good and necessary.  And there is no link between any one instance with another.

 

And it is something of a strawman, to interject at this point in a discussion about cutting Suian's arc short to claim anyone supporting or thinking it is a sensible decision also is in favour of Maksim's greater roll or any other change. They are different things.

[Mirefox]

  On 4/20/2025 at 2:58 PM, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

No they aren't. It is a fact that to fit everything into the time they have things have to be cut and changed. You cannot have all 2,793 (or however many it is) named characters in the show.

 

Things can be added to more easily explain things, or to keep things consistent, or any of a myriad of reasons. 

 

This does not mean that all additions are good and necessary, nor that all cuttings are good and necessary.  And there is no link between any one instance with another.

 

And it is something of a strawman, to interject at this point in a discussion about cutting Suian's arc short to claim anyone supporting or thinking it is a sensible decision also is in favour of Maksim's greater roll or any other change. They are different things.

Expand  

Always fun to see someone arguing against the law of noncontradiction.  Syllogism is not subjective.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/20/2025 at 3:33 PM, Mirefox said:

Always fun to see someone arguing against the law of noncontradiction.  Syllogism is not subjective.

Expand  

Some, not all cuts are bad. Some, not all additions are good. Those are not contradictory statements. 

[DigificWriter]

  On 4/20/2025 at 2:20 PM, Mirefox said:

The difference being that Ned was a strong leader, beloved character, seemingly the main character, etc., etc.

 

Susan was horribly realized in the show.  She wasn’t likable, she wasn’t all that politically astute, and her role hardly mattered.  Talk an out pulling punches with major character deaths.  They couldn’t have killed a more inconsequential “main” character as far as the show goes.

Expand  

 

I disagree.

 

I'm aware of one diehard book fan for whom Siuan's death is of significant impact relative to their understanding and comprehension of where the story is supposed to go (and who explicitly described Siuan as a "load-bearing" character), and am fully anticipating that at least one Show-Only viewer who is part of a podcast that I listen to is going to have a very strong (and possibly 'fandom-breaking') reaction to the character's death as well.

Edited April 20 by DigificWriter

[Vosha]

  On 4/20/2025 at 2:50 PM, Mirefox said:

My argument is simply that nobody can sensibly make the argument that certain elements had to be cut from the IP, whether they be storylines, characters, etc. because of time/episode limitations whilst simultaneously defending storylines, characters, etc. completely made up by Rafe Judkins.  Those are two wholly incompatible arguments.

Expand  

This is…..certainly an opinion. The problem is that it rests in the idea that all book storylines are vital to the overall narrative and that’s simply not true. Conversely, other storylines can and should be expanded when it’s in service to the narrative. You can disagree with the show runner’s choices on that front, but pretending it’s wholly without justification is a bit myopic. 

Edited April 20 by Vosha

[Mailman]

  On 4/20/2025 at 2:20 PM, Mirefox said:

The difference being that Ned was a strong leader, beloved character, seemingly the main character, etc., etc.

 

Susan was horribly realized in the show.  She wasn’t likable, she wasn’t all that politically astute, and her role hardly mattered.  Talk an out pulling punches with major character deaths.  They couldn’t have killed a more inconsequential “main” character as far as the show goes.

Expand  

I always assumed Snow was the main character.

[Ralph]

Jon on WotUp has an interesting theory that the collar Liandrin took from Nynaeve was a female a'dam and that N was tricking her into thinking they had found what they wanted 

Edited April 22 by Ralph

[DojoToad]

  On 4/20/2025 at 2:28 PM, Mirefox said:

It always reminds me of the Hardy Boys books I grew up on as a kid; every chapter ended with some mini-cliffhanger.  That worked to keep kids engaged but it would be ridiculous in a competent adult novel.

Expand  

Those Hardy boys got knocked-out/concussed more than NFL players...

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/21/2025 at 5:21 PM, DojoToad said:

Those Hardy boys got knocked-out/concussed more than NFL players...

Expand  

They sure made me love reading though…

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/21/2025 at 5:21 PM, DojoToad said:

Those Hardy boys got knocked-out/concussed more than NFL players...

Expand  

Can't wait until they get 10 seasons, and start exploring CTE.

[Mailman]

  On 4/21/2025 at 5:21 PM, DojoToad said:

Those Hardy boys got knocked-out/concussed more than NFL players...

Expand  

I started watching Blacklist and I think the entire good guys team got knocked out almost every single episode in the first season.