S3E6 - The Shadow in the Night

[Mailman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 1:44 AM, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

They haven’t really had a chance yet. In the books Mat’s luck began to manifest in TDR, but since they skipped that book there really hasn’t been an opportunity to show mats luck. Perhaps it starts with the bracelet. 

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Well at this moment then without book knowledge Mat does not have any form of extra luck in the show so people need to stop giving it to him as an ability.

 

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

  On 4/6/2025 at 1:51 AM, Mailman said:

Well at this moment then without book knowledge Mat does not have any form of extra luck in the show so people need to stop giving it to him as an ability.

 

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Fair enough, but it has to start somewhere. I guess we’ll just have to see where they go with it.  

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 1:51 AM, Mailman said:

Mat does not have any form of extra luck in the show

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He seems to end up where he needs to be right when he needs to be there. 

[Fiona_12]

  On 4/5/2025 at 1:02 PM, DreadLord31 said:

After seeing Daniel Greene’s reaction video - I’m back up to an 8 out 10! lol

😂

 

I think if I watched the episodes with other major fans I’d like them more. Geek out on certain scenes. He actually really liked the Rand/Sammael ending. 

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I was surprised Daniel liked it as much as he did, simply because I have always been right on par with Daniel, going all the way back to season one, but he rated this episode higher than I did.

 

I am really enjoying the way he's doing reaction videos instead of reviews this season. It's a lot more fun. Especially when he kept getting hyped for Mat's duel with G&G and then he'd be bummed because he didn't get it. I just laughed and thought, "Just wait 😄"

[Fiona_12]

  On 4/5/2025 at 11:22 PM, Mailman said:

That could be the case but we are now dealing with an ability that really bears no resemblance to the one we started referencing from the book.

 

It is now an ability that allows him to sense channelers in the dream and also sense extreme feelings that are not directed at him or allows him to use need with incredible precision on people who would be incredibly unlikely to be in the dream themselves.

 

So it really is something entirely new.

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I didn't think it's really different from him entering the boys' dreams earlier in the show. He did that in the books, too.

Edited April 6 by Fiona_12

[Mailman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 3:00 AM, Elder_Haman said:

He seems to end up where he needs to be right when he needs to be there. 

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Except when he leaves the show. (I am only making a joke)

[Fiona_12]

  On 4/6/2025 at 12:45 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Find me any reference to this in the books. You could be right, but I don’t think so. 

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What about the ravens that had been keeping an eye on Emond's Field for years? And Fain. That trollocs attack on Winter's Night was not random.

Edited April 6 by Fiona_12

[Fiona_12]

  On 4/6/2025 at 1:06 AM, bringbackthomsmoustache said:

Regarding the random nature of finding the bracelet from a random guy met in a bar.  Specifically this was a random guy Mat met in a bar - in the books in Ebou Dar they find the bowl of winds purely due to Mat's random selection of an inn to stay at.  Random is how his nature as a ta'veren manifests.  If he had been pushed of the dock when arriving in the city it would be fine for him to come up clutching the bracelet.  

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I don't think they're making it quite clear enough that his t'averen nature is primarily his luck. Not that I expect some exposition about it, but if he would just start making references to it, like "Well, my luck is in today" when something random goes his way.

[Mailman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 3:28 AM, Fiona_12 said:

 

What about the way he entered the boys' dreams earlier in the show? He did that in the books, too.

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I think it was Fain's return to the 2 rivers's that initially allowed him to start touching the boy's dreams. having his special agent get close to them allowed him to lock onto his targets.

 

Remember each year he was sent to the area he was interrogated and they narrowed the options till the last time he left Shayol Gul they had narrowed it to the 3 boys. If he had the ability to enter their dreams without Fain returning he surely would have. As the dreams always felt like if they had given in it would have allowed Ishy/dark one to tie maybe an unbreakable string to the boys. It would be an incredible coincidence that he was able to locate them in dream the exact same night his forces struck the 2 rivers.

 

The same as when he is searching for them in the dream rather than pulling them directly to the fireplace room. This changes as soon as they are confronted by Gode in 4 kings, that night he is able to draw them to the room again.

 

The more he touches them in the Dream the greater his ability to find them again becomes.

[Fiona_12]

  On 4/6/2025 at 1:10 AM, Mailman said:

Everyone keeps referencing Mat being supernaturally lucky in the show, I am struggling to think of clear examples of when the show has shown this to actually be the case.

 

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I think people mean they don't mind that random bit of luck with the bracelet because they know where it's headed based on the books.

[Mailman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 3:48 AM, Fiona_12 said:

 

I think people mean they don't mind that random bit of luck with the bracelet because they know where it's headed based on the books.

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Thats kind of my point though if you are watching without the book knowledge or are a non book watcher then you must feel it incredibly unlikely that some random dude they talked to just happened to know where and actually be able to procure the millennia old item they are searching for.

[Fiona_12]

  On 4/6/2025 at 3:44 AM, Mailman said:

I think it was Fain's return to the 2 rivers's that initially allowed him to start touching the boy's dreams. having his special agent get close to them allowed him to lock onto his targets.

 

Remember each year he was sent to the area he was interrogated and they narrowed the options till the last time he left Shayol Gul they had narrowed it to the 3 boys. If he had the ability to enter their dreams without Fain returning he surely would have. As the dreams always felt like if they had given in it would have allowed Ishy/dark one to tie maybe an unbreakable string to the boys. It would be an incredible coincidence that he was able to locate them in dream the exact same night his forces struck the 2 rivers.

 

The same as when he is searching for them in the dream rather than pulling them directly to the fireplace room. This changes as soon as they are confronted by Gode in 4 kings, that night he is able to draw them to the room again.

 

The more he touches them in the Dream the greater his ability to find them again becomes.

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I don't remember where it says that. I'm not questioning you. I know he hates the DO because of the way the DO tortured him, but I just don't remember this specifically.

[Fiona_12]

  On 4/6/2025 at 3:52 AM, Mailman said:

Thats kind of my point though if you are watching without the book knowledge or are a non book watcher then you must feel it incredibly unlikely that some random dude they talked to just happened to know where and actually be able to procure the millennia old item they are searching for.

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I've had to change my mind about the way they wrote some things in previous seasons because I've seen how they paid off this season. I'm thinking this will be the first of the many times we'll see Mat's luck play out. That's why I wish he had said something like "My luck is in today" so that viewers can start connecting the dots.

[Mailman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 3:53 AM, Fiona_12 said:

 

I don't remember where it says that. I'm not questioning you. I know he hates the DO because of the way the DO tortured him, but I just don't remember this specifically.

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Most of it is from the information Moiraine gets from him in the books when he is captured outside Fal Dara. He is also described as having conducted acts and oaths that bound him to the DO much deeper than the average DF to go along with him being distilled.

[Fiona_12]

  On 4/6/2025 at 3:59 AM, Mailman said:

Most of it is from the information Moiraine gets from him in the books when he is captured outside Fal Dara. He is also described as having conducted acts and oaths that bound him to the DO much deeper than the average DF to go along with him being distilled.

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Thanks. I'll have to pay more attention to that part next time. That's one of the parts I kind of gloss over because it doesn't interest me as much as it used to.

[Mailman]

  On 4/4/2025 at 6:46 AM, forte12 said:

 ( which Napier's acting was 100% fine this episode, Jesus Christ, something tells me these comments have more to do with his personal life than what's on screen). 

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Sorry to pop this comment up again but it has really been nagging at me.

 

Are you seriously saying that you don't think the fact he is in a relationship with the showrunner might have had something to do with him getting the part?

 

Have you looked at his filmography it is over a dozen years is very small and consists of almost entirely shorts and bit pieces in parts of TV shows. The highest rated piece is a half run in a youtube production with 6 min episodes ( the 2 I watched are terrible and not even the best actor in the world would have made a difference)

 

For anyone that wanted a look at a young Napier or to watch the terrible program. This is the first episode he is in at the start of the 2nd season. 

 

I am judging his acting purely on what I see as the lack of skill he has in the WoT show. I feel that to date his filmography largely backs this up. 

[A Memory Of Why]

  On 4/6/2025 at 1:00 AM, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

Not so much, never envisioned sensitive guy Lan either but here we are 🤣

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What? Of course Lan is a sensitive guy!

 

Malkier, his heritage and private war are all touchy subjects, crikey the guy knew poems and shit.

 

And yet people only ever think of him as this dude walking around, hard as a rock looking for someone who knows how to scratch his back just right 😂

[A Memory Of Why]

  On 4/6/2025 at 1:07 AM, Mirefox said:

Yeah, I didn’t mind this bit of randomness, but it’s because I have context from the book to know that Mat is supernaturally lucky.  I think they should have highlighted this a bit more in the show.

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I get the sentiment but I don't think it's a big issue. RJ was known for leaving all sorts of breadcrumbs that most people miss out on, it's what makes reread so much fun.

 

I'm good with them utilising this concept, honestly wouldn't mind if they did it more but I guess it doesn't really fit with this medium in this short attention span, content guzzling day and age.

 

Some of my favourites from the early books:

  Reveal hidden contents

Min and prophesies.

 

Rand getting goosbumps whenever Moraine channels.

 

Moraine and Lans fight over passing the bond, to me shows Lan messing with her via said bond 😆

 

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 3:35 AM, Fiona_12 said:

 

What about the ravens that had been keeping an eye on Emond's Field for years? And Fain. That trollocs attack on Winter's Night was not random.

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I think you’re misunderstanding the assignment. No doubt the boys were known to the shadow. 
 

The question is whether there is some textual support for the notion that Ishy couldn’t invade Liandrin’s dreams the same way he did the boys. 

[Mailman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 5:39 AM, Elder_Haman said:

I think you’re misunderstanding the assignment. No doubt the boys were known to the shadow. 
 

The question is whether there is some textual support for the notion that Ishy couldn’t invade Liandrin’s dreams the same way he did the boys. 

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I also think it's possible or probable that he was not in fact invading their dreams. I think he may have been more drawing them to him in a manner, remember near the end he has the 3 figures on the table and Mat picks up the one holding the dagger and it is only after that he grabs his own figure does Ishy say so that is who you are and the figures face becomes the same as his. This suggests to me that he is not clear on who is who and he is drawing all of them to him.

 

If he was invading their dreams I would think the visions would be clear. We never get an Ishy PoV but that Mat interaction might suggest he does not see them clearly like the boys see him.

 

So in essence Fain goes and recognizes all 3 boys.

Ishy has descriptions of the boys from Fain.

It is only through Fains(or maybe the fades) proximity that he is able to establish a link to their dreams but he still does not know which dream is which boy. As he is still partially trapped.

The timing of his interaction with the boys in the dream world being directly after Fain arrives seems too coincidental to be anything but causal.

 

Additional

Focus narrows after

Fain meets them in 2 rivers

Gode at 4 Kings

Fain/Beggar gets close to Rand in Camelyn

Fain arrives at Fal Dara (Ingtar as well)

 

After each of these they have the dream with the room and fireplace (sorry Gode is in the 4 Kings Inn but still more than just the chase). Most of the others I believe are them being chased in the maze or the mirror type areas.

Edited April 6 by Mailman

[Turin Turambar]

  On 4/6/2025 at 1:10 AM, Mailman said:

Everyone keeps referencing Mat being supernaturally lucky in the show, I am struggling to think of clear examples of when the show has shown this to actually be the case.

 

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There is one thing I remembered as him being comically lucky. In the winternight attack by the trollocs, Mat goes to find his sisters. He wanders/stumbles on over, through several trollocs completely unscathed. I don't think it's evidence of being stealthy or clever. It seems to be pure luck.

 

That's my subjective take on it though. 

[Gary Again]

I enjoyed the episode I was glad they brought Thom back I enjoyed the whole group that is there and I feel like we got a hint of the traveling menagerie with Elayne performing. Elayne's song was fun and covered a lot of the personality quirks that she has liking rowdy language but not really understanding it and I like the way they have brought songs from the book to life with this one and weep for menetheren I think they do a really great job with these songs and I'm glad they lean into them and highlight them. I thought Min was hilarious when she walked up on the party and I just really enjoyed her and Nynaeve's part overall. I like how different people are helping Nynaeve chip away at her block last episode it was the sea folk and now Min helping her relax. It was nice to see how proud Mat was that he knew Elayne. Mat was lucky AF in the books so him finding the bracelet isn't too surprising (it actually became their strategy to find the bowl of the winds) and I agree that is probably Julian I think it is. Also I just like the overall look and feel of Tanchico and I like that they are teasing Aludra a bit. 

 

Mogi is just inspired the way she just swings between moods is terrifying and that scene with Elayne and Nynaeve was perfect I think all 3 of them did an amazing job. I saw the scratch as marking her property and the foresaken acted like this in the books too they basically considered people of the current age to be little more than cavemen or savages and didn't see any of them outside of Rand as a threat (it's even debatable if some of them saw Rand as a threat) so I saw this as her taking an interest in Nynave because of her power and marking her almost like cattle as she was saying she was going to come back for her. She is absolutely amazing though I wasn't aware that I needed an evil Bjork in my life but I appreciate what she brings to Mogi it is amazing.

 

I thought the Sammael attack came out of nowhere but Lanfear did egg Sammael on to go after Rand at this point in the books too he was just more careful about things and didn't show up personally but strategically it does make sense to go hard after Rand before he puts an army together, learns how to channel and before he gets Callendor. Honestly this probably makes more strategic sense than sitting in a castle antagonizing Rand and waiting for him to get powerful enough to come wipe you off the face of the planet. For the fight I kind of liked it, the fight wasn't between Rand and Sammael it was between Rand losing control of himself which makes it more insulting to Sammael. We didn't get a big magical duel but I feel like we are getting that with Rahvin which was one of the better magical duels in the book so I don't mind that too much and I feel like we aren't done with Sammael either so we could see him still do a defensive fight at Tear which I think is kind of cool I would totally see Sammael go for the biggest defensive fortress in the world for a lot of reasons. I also didn't catch him being Lanfears little surprise but that is absolutely perfect lol, she really does not miss a chance to jab people.

 

Rand though was perfect and he's not an easy character to portray because he is all over the place but I thought Joshua nailed Rand's distrust without it getting too cartoony, he nailed Rand as a friend with Perrin, Mat and I thought they did a great job with Egwene and that scene between them in this episode and now the madness that smile while he is crying was perfect and even when he took out Sammael the absent blank look on his face while he tore the world apart was great for a lot of reasons. Then after that there is a shot where Rand just nods to himself like everything is right and it was a job well done while the building collapses was pretty haunting too. We didn't get a big fight but Rand losing himself in the power and absentmindedly dragging a building down on what is supposed to be one of the most frightening things in the world really drives home the point that Rand is actually one of the most frightening things in the world and they captured all of the reasons in a beautiful shot. We haven't seen a lot of Rand losing it so I thought this was all really effective ways to show it both the addictive part of the power and dissassociation with the world around him.

 

Edited April 6 by Gary Again

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/6/2025 at 7:07 AM, Mailman said:

I also think it's possible or probable that he was not in fact invading their dreams. I think he may have been more drawing them to him in a manner, remember near the end he has the 3 figures on the table and Mat picks up the one holding the dagger and it is only after that he grabs his own figure does Ishy say so that is who you are and the figures face becomes the same as his. This suggests to me that he is not clear on who is who and he is drawing all of them to him.

 

If he was invading their dreams I would think the visions would be clear. We never get an Ishy PoV but that Mat interaction might suggest he does not see them clearly like the boys see him.

 

So in essence Fain goes and recognizes all 3 boys.

Ishy has descriptions of the boys from Fain.

It is only through Fains(or maybe the fades) proximity that he is able to establish a link to their dreams but he still does not know which dream is which boy. As he is still partially trapped.

The timing of his interaction with the boys in the dream world being directly after Fain arrives seems too coincidental to be anything but causal.

 

Additional

Focus narrows after

Fain meets them in 2 rivers

Gode at 4 Kings

Fain/Beggar gets close to Rand in Camelyn

Fain arrives at Fal Dara (Ingtar as well)

 

After each of these they have the dream with the room and fireplace (sorry Gode is in the 4 Kings Inn but still more than just the chase). Most of the others I believe are them being chased in the maze or the mirror type areas.

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How does this support your argument that Ishy couldn’t invade Liandrin’s dreams?

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

  On 4/6/2025 at 4:43 AM, A Memory Of Why said:

 

I get the sentiment but I don't think it's a big issue. RJ was known for leaving all sorts of breadcrumbs that most people miss out on, it's what makes reread so much fun.

 

I'm good with them utilising this concept, honestly wouldn't mind if they did it more but I guess it doesn't really fit with this medium in this short attention span, content guzzling day and age.

 

Some of my favourites from the early books:

  Reveal hidden contents

Min and prophesies.

 

Rand getting goosbumps whenever Moraine channels.

 

Moraine and Lans fight over passing the bond, to me shows Lan messing with her via said bond 😆

 

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Yes, Mat’s supernatural luck in the show is intuitively obvious 😉

[king of nowhere]

  On 4/6/2025 at 3:00 AM, Elder_Haman said:

He seems to end up where he needs to be right when he needs to be there. 

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That goes for every character in every fiction. It's called plot. 

Some works of fiction mask it better than others. Some have a perfect in-world justification for it and turn it into a plot point