S3E2:A Question of Crimson - Discussion

[Mirefox]

  On 3/15/2025 at 10:28 AM, Turin Turambar said:

Rahvin has used compulsion in massive amounts on everyone when they first interact. It was the reason for Leane's pause when he entered the Hall. The weave was just taking effect. 

I originally thought that Gaebril was going to be killed and replaced by Rahvin, but they show that he is implanting memories into everyone ( maybe like an aura weave) so they accept him as if he had been there since forever.  

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I never considered that he’s constantly channeling compulsion, but the one question I then have is have we seen anyone channel “secretly” in this show without us as the viewers seeing the weaves?  We might have, I just don’t remember.  I suppose we did with Rand in the first season, but then we see the weaves in his flashbacks, right?

Edited March 15 by Mirefox

[SinisterDeath]

  On 3/15/2025 at 1:21 PM, Mirefox said:

I never considered that he’s constantly channeling compulsion, but the one question I then have is have we seen anime channel “secretly” in this show without us as the viewers seeing the weaves?  We might have, I just don’t remember.  I suppose we did with Rand in the first season, but then we see the weaves in his flashbacks, right?

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That's correct.

 

We mainly only ever seen Rand channel when he's in the scene and it's a scene where they're making it clear he's the one channeling.

 

This is one aspect of the show that's honestly extremely tricky to handle since there's no clear way to establish who's POV the scene is from.

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 3/15/2025 at 3:48 PM, SinisterDeath said:

That's correct.

 

We mainly only ever seen Rand channel when he's in the scene and it's a scene where they're making it clear he's the one channeling.

 

This is one aspect of the show that's honestly extremely tricky to handle since there's no clear way to establish who's POV the scene is from.

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I'm fine with this approach, since whoever's POV we'd be watching that entrance from (probably Siuan's), we can be sure it wasn't Gaebril's, and he's the only one who could see the weaves in that room.

[DigificWriter]

In order for things to work out as they're shown, Rahvin/Gaebril had to have cast - and tied - weaves onto himself that almost* instantaneously affect everyone around him by implanting false memories in their brains and/or compelling them to behave like he's familiar to them.

 

* I say "almost" because there's clearly a moment where Leanne isn't affected since she doesn't immediately recognize and announce him

[Jaysen Gore]

My episode 2 thoughts

- I like the changes to Morgase's character, it will help with making later developments more believable (assuming we get them). Her changes will no longer be so far out of character

 

- if this is only about episode 2, who is this Rahvin y'all are speaking about? The lovable consort of the queen, concerned about his step daughter?

 

- the boys were note perfect for TV, although I agree Galad's behaviour afterwards was out of character. Another Hollywood trope that people can never be as good as they appear to be, it's just a mask for moral turpitude. Although I do appreciate the fact that the Whitecloak view of Justice versus Mercy is really tough to do, especially when it's a D plotline, at best. 

 

- happy to see them have the WG's show agency and figure out the Tanchico thing, but with them on the road already, I wonder if we're going to get enough time at the tower to set up what's happening.

[Mirefox]

  On 3/15/2025 at 3:48 PM, SinisterDeath said:

That's correct.

 

We mainly only ever seen Rand channel when he's in the scene and it's a scene where they're making it clear he's the one channeling.

 

This is one aspect of the show that's honestly extremely tricky to handle since there's no clear way to establish who's POV the scene is from.

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Thank you for deciphering my idiotic autocorrect.

[Mirefox]

  On 3/15/2025 at 4:20 PM, DigificWriter said:

In order for things to work out as they're shown, Rahvin/Gaebril had to have cast - and tied - weaves onto himself that almost* instantaneously affect everyone around him by implanting false memories in their brains and/or compelling them to behave like he's familiar to them.

 

* I say "almost" because there's clearly a moment where Leanne isn't affected since she doesn't immediately recognize and announce him

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I don’t recall anything like that in the books but it’s an awesome idea to be so powerful that you have some sort of persistent weave that just works automatically on anyone around you.

[Jaysen Gore]

  On 3/15/2025 at 5:19 PM, Mirefox said:

I don’t recall anything like that in the books but it’s an awesome idea to be so powerful that you have some sort of persistent weave that just works automatically on anyone around you.

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If you combine the Mirror of Mists with Graendal's general radiation of compulsion, you get there.

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/15/2025 at 5:19 PM, Mirefox said:

I don’t recall anything like that in the books but it’s an awesome idea to be so powerful that you have some sort of persistent weave that just works automatically on anyone around you.

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It really does show that, despite being weaker than Ishy, Lanfear, and Moggy (who are either stated or implied to be the 3 strongest Forsaken in the show), he's still pretty powerful.

[Agitel]

Just finished E2. 

 

Well that got off to a start with Morgase just executing her political rivals and breaking her word in public court.

 

Going to just leave it there. 

 

Edit: To call out one thing I enjoyed was Lanfear messing with both Rand's and Egwene's dreams at the same time.

Edited March 16 by Agitel

[Mailman]

Just managed to get through ep2 and I'm not really sure what I am watching anymore.

 

100% gone is the good ruler for all Morgase straight out murders children to cement her leadership. For mine this is just an attempt to grab a GoT feel for the show.

 

Morgase looks too old in the cold open which is a bit jarring when Elayne says latter that she took the throne when younger than herself. Morgase also does not feel like the mature beauty of the young Elayne.

 

Gaebril? Another character or is going to be replaced? Not sure the hypothesis that it is some kind of active constant compulsion is right. Whats the range? It must be permanent on those that it affects but what about the ripples to those outside that he does not meet the sheer number of people that know the royals and suddenly people are talking about a royal consort that does not exist must be staggeringly confusing. I mean what if Elayne meets Galad before Gaebril and he starts talking about the royal consort?

 

Galad and Gawyn just banging through the novices it really feels like they are going to make them absolute prats rather than considerate and thoughtful characters they were in the books. Really don't understand Nyn's comments about them she has never met them before as they arrived in the tower that day.

 

I have already gone through the stupid sword training scene.

 

Tower discipline and logic seems amazingly loose.

 

Very hard to track the time jumps. Walking to the waste? Why not at least take a horse? Mandrab where are you. Who the hell did Avi think anyone in that group could have possibly told among the Aiel that they were coming? Alanna making it to the TR before Perrin? The ways don't feel very dangerous at the moment.

 

Rand says he is not afraid then seemingly to me spells out exactly why he is afraid of embracing the source.

 

No one is the TR saying hello to Perrin or taking any notice of Loial or the maidens. 

 

The maidens offering greeting to defend the hold to Mistress al'vere when they have no idea who she is and they are in the forge. Smacks of a key jangle for book readers.

 

Pretty much the only thing I liked was Lanfear messing with Egwene's dreams

Edited March 16 by Mailman

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/16/2025 at 3:50 AM, Mailman said:

100% gone is the good ruler for all

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Committing barbaric or ruthless acts does not make a character evil.

 

Ned Stark and Robb Stark beheaded people; that didn't make them bad guys.

[Mailman]

  On 3/16/2025 at 5:33 AM, DigificWriter said:

 

Committing barbaric or ruthless acts does not make a character evil.

 

Ned Stark and Robb Stark beheaded people; that didn't make them bad guys.

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Executing someone for a crime is one thing.

Executing people including a child in a truce situation is something else entirely.

Executing someone just to make your reign easier is something else entirely.

Do you think book Morgase would have executed a child under truce?

 

Edited March 16 by Mailman

[DigificWriter]

Not gonna touch the book question because I'm a Show-Only fan.

 

I will say this, though: Olivia Williams has a history of playing characters who are portrayed in a heroic light but who still do barbaric and ruthless things (see Tula Harkonnen, Adelle DeWitt).

 

I'll also cite another example of a heroic character doing barbaric and ruthless things without ceasing to be heroic: Westworld's Robert Ford orchestrating the Host uprising and triggering Dolores Abernathy's 'Wyatt' personality program.

 

 

[Mailman]

  On 3/16/2025 at 6:00 AM, DigificWriter said:

Not gonna touch the book question because I'm a Show-Only fan.

 

I will say this, though: Olivia Williams has a history of playing characters who are portrayed in a heroic light but who still do barbaric and ruthless things (see Tula Harkonnen, Adelle DeWitt).

 

I'll also cite another example of a heroic character doing barbaric and ruthless things without ceasing to be heroic: Westworld's Robert Ford orchestrating the Host uprising and triggering Dolores Abernathy's 'Wyatt' personality program.

 

 

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I could not care less what the actor has a history of playing. My only concern is with the competence with which they portray the character in question.

 

I have not watched Westworld so i cannot comment.

 

You are not a hero if you murder children under a truce setting simply to make your reign easier. You are not even a good ruler you have just made 4 lifelong enemy houses with a valid reason to hate you.

Edited March 16 by Mailman

[Turin Turambar]

  On 3/16/2025 at 3:50 AM, Mailman said:

Just managed to get through ep2 and I'm not really sure what I am watching anymore.

 

100% gone is the good ruler for all Morgase straight out murders children to cement her leadership. For mine this is just an attempt to grab a GoT feel for the show.

 

Morgase looks too old in the cold open which is a bit jarring when Elayne says latter that she took the throne when younger than herself. Morgase also does not feel like the mature beauty of the young Elayne.

 

Gaebril? Another character or is going to be replaced? Not sure the hypothesis that it is some kind of active constant compulsion is right. Whats the range? It must be permanent on those that it affects but what about the ripples to those outside that he does not meet the sheer number of people that know the royals and suddenly people are talking about a royal consort that does not exist must be staggeringly confusing. I mean what if Elayne meets Galad before Gaebril and he starts talking about the royal consort?

 

Galad and Gawyn just banging through the novices it really feels like they are going to make them absolute prats rather than considerate and thoughtful characters they were in the books. Really don't understand Nyn's comments about them she has never met them before as they arrived in the tower that day.

 

I have already gone through the stupid sword training scene.

 

Tower discipline and logic seems amazingly loose.

 

Very hard to track the time jumps. Walking to the waste? Why not at least take a horse? Mandrab where are you. Who the hell did Avi think anyone in that group could have possibly told among the Aiel that they were coming? Alanna making it to the TR before Perrin? The ways don't feel very dangerous at the moment.

 

Rand says he is not afraid then seemingly to me spells out exactly why he is afraid of embracing the source.

 

No one is the TR saying hello to Perrin or taking any notice of Loial or the maidens. 

 

The maidens offering greeting to defend the hold to Mistress al'vere when they have no idea who she is and they are in the forge. Smacks of a key jangle for book readers.

 

Pretty much the only thing I liked was Lanfear messing with Egwene's dreams

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My general take on the show is it is a different turning of the wheel, so things won't be exactly the same. Circumstances of her war of succession are not shown,  so we have no idea how long or brutal it was. Those houses could have done things that could not be forgiven. We just don't know.  It also possible that Morgase herself was changed and is just more ruthless. As to how she looks in the cold open, I assume they just didn't want to have to cast another actress just for the one scene and/or thought it would be better to have the same person play her. It didn't bother me very much in any case. 

The Two Princes being horn dogs, again, another turning. It is conceivable they had some different experiences growing up so became slightly different men. The metal swords for training, is dumb but people do dumb things, maybe they figure that any accidents will just be quickly healed as in this turning AS can actually do that well.

Not taking horses might have Ben the logistically sound choice as the terrain didn't appear conducive to riding, or even walking a horse. Alanna is a big girl, she can handle herself pretty well and it does show she was injured in transit, so yeah. I mean to me it is more amazing that Perrin et al made it through with seemingly little difficulty.

The TR folk lack of reactions to them arriving did seem off but they have been dealing with stuff so maybe their a bit dead. I'm not surprised by the maidens being able to recognise that mistress Al'vere is a leader of the town. Even if Perrin doesn't tell them directly,  she is more wealthy by appearances and she does carry herself with an air of authority. 

Lanfear multitasking in TaR was cool.

[Mailman]

  On 3/16/2025 at 8:07 AM, Turin Turambar said:

My general take on the show is it is a different turning of the wheel, so things won't be exactly the same. Circumstances of her war of succession are not shown,  so we have no idea how long or brutal it was. Those houses could have done things that could not be forgiven. We just don't know.  It also possible that Morgase herself was changed and is just more ruthless. As to how she looks in the cold open, I assume they just didn't want to have to cast another actress just for the one scene and/or thought it would be better to have the same person play her. It didn't bother me very much in any case. 

The Two Princes being horn dogs, again, another turning. It is conceivable they had some different experiences growing up so became slightly different men. The metal swords for training, is dumb but people do dumb things, maybe they figure that any accidents will just be quickly healed as in this turning AS can actually do that well.

Not taking horses might have Ben the logistically sound choice as the terrain didn't appear conducive to riding, or even walking a horse. Alanna is a big girl, she can handle herself pretty well and it does show she was injured in transit, so yeah. I mean to me it is more amazing that Perrin et al made it through with seemingly little difficulty.

The TR folk lack of reactions to them arriving did seem off but they have been dealing with stuff so maybe their a bit dead. I'm not surprised by the maidens being able to recognise that mistress Al'vere is a leader of the town. Even if Perrin doesn't tell them directly,  she is more wealthy by appearances and she does carry herself with an air of authority. 

Lanfear multitasking in TaR was cool.

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I get the different turning of the wheel argument but when the changes become so pronounced at what point is it no longer an adaption but an entirely different story just using names to bait interest.

 

I would say at the moment Moiraine is the most important character followed by the tower storylines and Nyn and then Rand and the others after that.

[Agitel]

S3E2 was the first episode of WoT my wife has ever seen. She has not read any of the books. When Morgase killed her rivals right in the middle of court after promising forgiveness (of a sort), she was perplexed. She's not politically naïve. She also loves ASOIAF (which she's both read and watched). She found this to be a big political blunder. She asked me about it, and upon seeing my face, picked up it wasn't in the books. "Well, is she an unpopular, ruthless queen in the books?" she asked? "No," I replied, "she's generally had a popular reign and is pretty beloved."  My wife laughed at that. 

Edited March 16 by Agitel

[DigificWriter]

  On 3/16/2025 at 8:37 AM, Mailman said:

at what point is it no longer an adaption

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Never.

 

An adaptation will always be an adaptation even if it only has the barest of resemblances to the thing it's adapted from.

 

Case in point: Disney's The Lion King is an adaptation of Hamlet even though the only thing that remains of that work are its underlying themes.

[Mirefox]

  On 3/16/2025 at 4:22 PM, DigificWriter said:

Never.

 

An adaptation will always be an adaptation even if it only has the barest of resemblances to the thing it's adapted from.

 

Case in point: Disney's The Lion King is an adaptation of Hamlet even though the only thing that remains of that work are its underlying themes.

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This is nonsense.  An adaptation is making changes or alterations to change one medium into another, not an umbrella term that excuses unlimited changes to incorporate the adaptor’s works into the original.  Adaptation implies fidelity to the original and at some point of the adaptor had altered the original more than is necessary for the change of medium, the product goes from an adaptation to a derivative work “based on.”

 

Further, following a common story archetype does not make a creative work an adaptation.  Read the history of the development of the Lion King sometime if you want and it went through years of creative before someone noticed that the product was beginning to resemble Hamlet.  Coincidental resemblance is not adaptation.

 

You continually claim to have not read the books here so you have no basis to comment on fidelity to the books but these shows are more a creation of the writers than of Robert Jordan so calling it an adaptation is questionable at best.  Further, it is on record that Rafe Judkins has stated his desire to adapt the themes to a more modern sensibility, which is why we get some things like the Avi/Elayne hookup (because polyamory is good, I guess, and sex sells), vs. the polygamy from the books (because patriarchy is bad, or something).  
 

We are clearly way outside of the realm of adaptation at this point and pretty firmly in the realm of fan fiction where we are seeing RJ’s story as filtered through how the writers want the story to be for themselves, just to fit into a coherent story in an alternate medium.

[DigificWriter]

It's not "nonsense". I simply do not place arbitrary restrictions on Adaptation as an art form.

 

If you don't like the 'The Lion King is an adaptation of Hamlet' example, you're not going to like the other big example I'm going to use, which is that Star Wars is an adaptation of the Arthurian Legends and myths (something that was pointed out to me by a High School English teacher who also taught a Creative Writing class that I took as an Elective).

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/16/2025 at 6:53 PM, Mirefox said:

Further, it is on record that Rafe Judkins has stated his desire to adapt the themes to a more modern sensibility,

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What does this statement by Rafe have to do with whether the TV show is an adaptation or not?

[Mirefox]

  On 3/16/2025 at 7:17 PM, DigificWriter said:

It's not "nonsense". I simply do not place arbitrary restrictions on Adaptation as an art form.

 

If you don't like the 'The Lion King is an adaptation of Hamlet' example, you're not going to like the other big example I'm going to use, which is that Star Wars is an adaptation of the Arthurian Legends and myths (something that was pointed out to me by a High School English teacher who also taught a Creative Writing class that I took as an Elective).

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You seem to be confused between adaptations and archetypes/inspiration.

 

And The Lion King has plenty of detailed development history that clearly shows the origins and evolution of the story independent of Hamlet.  Star Wars was inspired by Arthurian Legend and also Kurosawa and just the general Hero’s Journey archetype.  It also isn’t an adaptation.  Words have meaning; “adaptation” has meaning; it isn’t an arbitrary limitation, but a specific definition.

Edited March 16 by Mirefox

[Mirefox]

  On 3/16/2025 at 7:37 PM, Elder_Haman said:

What does this statement by Rafe have to do with whether the TV show is an adaptation or not?

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Because it shows that at least some of the intent isn’t merely adapting the book to a visual medium, which would of course have necessary changes, but that there was an intent to change themes, ideas, characters, etc. to something that the show creatives wanted them to be rather than what Jordan intended them to be.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 3/16/2025 at 7:42 PM, Mirefox said:

there was an intent to change themes, ideas, characters, etc

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So? Is there some rule that adaptations can’t do these things?