Season 3 Sneak Peek

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:07 PM, Mailman said:

However that does not account for why the sitters failed to be able to make shields which many attributed to the fact that they had not been trained to do so in relation to the tower battle scene.

Expand  

You asked why an untrained could make a shield.

The answer is because of Need.

 

Why couldn't a sitter make a shield?

There could be hundreds of reasons why they didn't do it, here's 6.

1. She was caught by surprise.

2. Shock

3. She didn't know the weave, her specialties are elsewhere.

4. She wasn't strong enough to make that kind of shield, shields require Air and Spirit, and she's strong in Fire and Wind.

5. Panic

6. They were focused on attacking, not defending.

 

No answer I give you, the show runner gives you, or anyone gives you is going to be good enough for you, because it's not the answer you want to hear or read.

 

The answer you want is that the show is bad, the writers are bad, and that they should probably go jump off a cliff for being so bad at their jobs, right?

[Skipp]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:05 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Rand, an untrained channeler, used a shield and lightning at the same time because of "need".

 

Nynaeve, an untrained channeler, used "healing" because of "need".

 

The "twins" used "fire" on Valda because of "need".

 

Knowing the weaves, isn't important as important as Aes Sedia believe it is. "Needing" something, allows the "weaves" to form themselves. When you believe you have to know what the weave looks like, in order to for channel that specific weave. That limits you. You get stuck and you're no longer able to do new things. You're locked out of the ability to create new weaves based on need... And that's why Aes Sedai hate Wilders.

 

There is precedent for this in both the books and the shows.

Expand  

Was going to post something similar.  Untrained channelers are often shown producing weaves by instinct.  Aes Sedai training tends to stamp this out.

 

I really liked the detail of Daise's shield as everytime it got hit it didn't reform.  The shield had a bunch of holes in it by the end.

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:12 PM, SinisterDeath said:

You asked why an untrained could make a shield.

The answer is because of Need.

 

Why couldn't a sitter make a shield?

There could be hundreds of reasons why they didn't do it, here's 6.

1. She was caught by surprise.

2. Shock

3. She didn't know the weave, her specialties are elsewhere.

4. She wasn't strong enough to make that kind of shield, shields require Air and Spirit, and she's strong in Fire and Wind.

5. Panic

6. They were focused on attacking, not defending.

 

No answer I give you, the show runner gives you, or anyone gives you is going to be good enough for you, because it's not the answer you want to hear or read.

 

The answer you want is that the show is bad, the writers are bad, and that they should probably go jump off a cliff for being so bad at their jobs, right?

Expand  

One of the arguments people used when defending the scene was that the sitters did not know how to shield themselves and years with no practice left them unable to do it, you are now claiming that my bringing it up after a completely untrained first day channeler managed to form a shield is me being purely biased. Come on.

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:19 PM, Skipp said:

Was going to post something similar.  Untrained channelers are often shown producing weaves by instinct.  Aes Sedai training tends to stamp this out.

 

I really liked the detail of Daise's shield as everytime it got hit it didn't reform.  The shield had a bunch of holes in it by the end.

Expand  

Exactly the same as Alanna's shield in the previous episode when the the bolts kept breaking holes in the shield.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:20 PM, Mailman said:

One of the arguments people used when defending the scene was that the sitters did not know how to shield themselves and years with no practice left them unable to do it, you are now claiming that my bringing it up after a completely untrained first day channeler managed to form a shield is me being purely biased. Come on.

Expand  

That's literally not what I said.

I'm stating that you won't be happy with any answer anyone gives unless it's your answer, and that's the writers are bad.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:12 PM, SinisterDeath said:

You asked why an untrained could make a shield.

The answer is because of Need.

 

Why couldn't a sitter make a shield?

There could be hundreds of reasons why they didn't do it, here's 6.

1. She was caught by surprise.

2. Shock

3. She didn't know the weave, her specialties are elsewhere.

4. She wasn't strong enough to make that kind of shield, shields require Air and Spirit, and she's strong in Fire and Wind.

5. Panic

6. They were focused on attacking, not defending.

 

No answer I give you, the show runner gives you, or anyone gives you is going to be good enough for you, because it's not the answer you want to hear or read.

 

The answer you want is that the show is bad, the writers are bad, and that they should probably go jump off a cliff for being so bad at their jobs, right?

Expand  

If you're going to quote me, quote my whole post @Mailman

[SinisterDeath]

Instead of just reading that last paragraph, read it all within context.

 

I gave you reasons why an untrained "wilder" could make a shield. "Need".

I also gave you 6 reasons why Highly trained "sitters" didn't or couldn't make "physical" shields.

 

I posit, that the reason none of those are going to suffice for you, is because no answer, any one gives you, is going to ever be enough, because the only answer that will ever suffice is the one that rests between your ears.

[notpropaganda73]

I think it's obvious at this point how much I dislike the Healing and OTT injuries in the show, but a wilder instinctively creating a shield is very on-brand for WoT (both books and show). 

 

I can even allow for the Cauthon girls being able to Heal Alanna in ep6 with this idea in mind, but what I didn't like about that scene was it felt less about need and instinct, and more like they were being taught how to do this very complex thing very quickly. More a criticism of how the scene plays out rather than the Cauthons being able to do it I suppose. But maybe I'm being hypocritical as well, I dunno 😅

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:27 PM, SinisterDeath said:

If you're going to quote me, quote my whole post @Mailman

Expand  

The rest of the post was not required to answer. 

 

A number of people stated that the reason the sitters could not erect shields was lack of practice and lack of training. Your excuses for why are irrelevant because they are not the argument these other people made.

 

Your assertion that it was my bias and dismissing me on that basis was relevant and is why I posted that part of the comment in in quote.

 

The others argued for that not me. I feel it is relevant to bring it up when you see a complete untrained character produce that skill which centuries old masters are incapable of.

 

Maybe you might want to check your hostility to me a bit and think about it.

Edited April 11 by Mailman

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:53 PM, Mailman said:

The others argued for that not me. I feel it is relevant to bring it up when you see a complete untrained character produce that skill which centuries old masters are incapable of.

 

Maybe you might want to check your hostility to me a bit and think about it.

Expand  

And I gave you reasons why the Aes Sedia in that hall wouldn't use those weaves, while an "untrained" wilder could.

 

And again, the reason you won't accept any answer isn't out of my "hostility" towards you, it's because you literally will not accept any answer to this, except that which is between your own ears.

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:07 PM, Mailman said:

However that does not account for why the sitters failed to be able to make shields which many attributed to the fact that they had not been trained to do so in relation to the tower battle scene.

Expand  

Only because you continue to misrepresent the argument. The sitters were taken by surprise. They were attacked by friends that they have known and trusted for decades. It took many of them a moment to regroup.

To use @SinisterDeath's parlance, they were slow to recognize the need to channel in that moment.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:58 PM, Elder_Haman said:

To use @SinisterDeath's parlance, they were slow to recognize the need to channel in that moment.

Expand  

Here's a real life example.

 

Why is it school shooters seem to take down so many people, including armed cops in the schools? 

Aren't those cops trained for years to use their firearms? Where did their skills go? Did they just suddenly forget how to use their sidearms? I thought they trained for years and decades to use those guns? But this untrained kid just... Killed them, and dozens of others? 

HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?!

 

It's almost like... Shock and Awe is a thing.

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:12 PM, SinisterDeath said:

You asked why an untrained could make a shield.

The answer is because of Need.

 

Why couldn't a sitter make a shield?

There could be hundreds of reasons why they didn't do it, here's 6.

1. She was caught by surprise.

2. Shock

3. She didn't know the weave, her specialties are elsewhere.

4. She wasn't strong enough to make that kind of shield, shields require Air and Spirit, and she's strong in Fire and Wind.

5. Panic

6. They were focused on attacking, not defending.

 

No answer I give you, the show runner gives you, or anyone gives you is going to be good enough for you, because it's not the answer you want to hear or read.

 

The answer you want is that the show is bad, the writers are bad, and that they should probably go jump off a cliff for being so bad at their jobs, right?

Expand  

You won't accept it so i will engage with your reasons.

 

Need.

So the sitters had no need. They were in as much need as Daise if not more.

 

1,2,5 Both were surprised, shocked and panicked, If anything Daise would be far more likely to be affected than a group of heavily trained and practiced sisters. 

 

3 Daise would definitely not know the weave. All those sitters had no specialty in that area and an untrained day one channeler does.

 

4 No idea the magic system is woefully under explained but it would seem unlikely that the brand new channeler is a unicorn for shield making as opposed to some of the most powerful channelers in the Tower.

 

6 They were doing little of either.

 

No answer I give you will change your mind.

 

Remember this was not my argument others used it against me arguing it as the reason why the sitters could not make shields was no training and no practice.

 

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:58 PM, Elder_Haman said:

Only because you continue to misrepresent the argument. The sitters were taken by surprise. They were attacked by friends that they have known and trusted for decades. It took many of them a moment to regroup.

To use @SinisterDeath's parlance, they were slow to recognize the need to channel in that moment.

Expand  

Yet a woman who had never channeled herself before did when surprised.

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:01 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Here's a real life example.

 

Why is it school shooters seem to take down so many people, including armed cops in the schools? 

Aren't those cops trained for years to use their firearms? Where did their skills go? Did they just suddenly forget how to use their sidearms? I thought they trained for years and decades to use those guns? But this untrained kid just... Killed them, and dozens of others? 

HOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?!

 

It's almost like... Shock and Awe is a thing.

Expand  

Terrible example. The majority of the dead are students not police. It's really a terrible comparison. 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:13 PM, Mailman said:

Need.

So the sitters had no need. They were in as much need as Daise if not more

Expand  

Wow, I love how you don't actually read my posts.

  

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:05 PM, SinisterDeath said:

Knowing the weaves, isn't important as important as Aes Sedia believe it is. "Needing" something, allows the "weaves" to form themselves. When you believe you have to know what the weave looks like, in order to for channel that specific weave. That limits you. You get stuck and you're no longer able to do new things. You're locked out of the ability to create new weaves based on need... And that's why Aes Sedai hate Wilders.

 

There is precedent for this in both the books and the shows.

Expand  

 

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:13 PM, Mailman said:

1,2,5 Both were surprised, shocked and panicked, If anything Daise would be far more likely to be affected than a group of heavily trained and practiced sisters. 

Expand  

Show vs Book is different on this as we already know, but regardless, Daise, unlike these Aes Sedai... Had literally seen battle.. And Recently.

When was the last time these Aes Sedai been in battle? Two Decades ago? Longer? 

Daise had been dealing with Trollocs since Perrin Left, and during Winters Night.

 

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:13 PM, Mailman said:

3 Daise would definitely not know the weave. All those sitters had no specialty in that area and an untrained day one channeler does.

Expand  

Again, "Need" doesn't require knowing the the Weave. Aes Sedai are required to "know" the weave, because that's how they are taught. That's how they've trained everyone how it works. Once they've trained that into people, That's the only way you can learn to use it from there. They quite literally "beat" the "needing" to do something out of people. (Mind, This is more book side of things then show side of things)

 

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:13 PM, Mailman said:

4 No idea the magic system is woefully under explained but it would seem unlikely that the brand new channeler is a unicorn for shield making as opposed to some of the most powerful channelers in the Tower.

Expand  

The show doesn't explain individual strengths in the 5 powers of the One Power. 

Per the Books, it's entirely plausible that certain sitters, literally can't make an Air Shield and would never make an "Air Shield", and would instead, use fire to destroy arrows coming at them.

 

If they're weak with Air, but strong in spirit, the best go-to move against another channeler is to... Shield them from the one power.

 

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:13 PM, Mailman said:

6 They were doing little of either.

Expand  

We did in fact, see some sitters in the background attacking. The scene was chaotic. Most just didn't jump out of their seats and immediately go to town.

 

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:13 PM, Mailman said:

Remember this was not my argument others used it against me arguing it as the reason why the sitters could not make shields was no training and no practice.

Expand  

 

She wasn't surprised. She literally watched Alanna take how many arrows? She rushed up there, and then pushed a shield out to protect her while other's extracted her. In that moment she thought "Protect", and those weaves formed a "Shield".

This is literally a theme that ran through the first 3 books with Rand, and several other "wilder" characters through out the series as they developed "weaves" completely on their own, untrained, based on "need".

 

Moiraine learned a "trick" to hear distant conversations as a teen, "untrained".

Nynaeve learned to heal "untrained":

This is not unprecedented by any means for an untrained wilder to just "do something" because they "needed to"... Specially when there is a Ta'Varen around!

 

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:22 PM, Mailman said:

Terrible example. The majority of the dead are students not police. It's really a terrible comparison. 

Expand  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

How about this then?

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:32 PM, SinisterDeath said:

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Fort_Hood_shooting

How about this then?

Expand  

Did you read it?

 

According to testimony from witnesses, Hasan passed up several opportunities to shoot civilians, and instead targeted soldiers in uniform,^[22] who – in accordance with military policy – were not carrying personal firearms

 

He was incapacitated by the 2nd armed officer that responded.

 

So no another terrible comparison.

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/11/2025 at 3:41 PM, Mailman said:

Did you read it?

 

According to testimony from witnesses, Hasan passed up several opportunities to shoot civilians, and instead targeted soldiers in uniform,^[22] who – in accordance with military policy – were not carrying personal firearms

 

He was incapacitated by the 2nd armed officer that responded.

 

So no another terrible comparison.

Expand  

I'm aware they weren't armed, but they were also "trained", and despite that what happened?

 

https://www.charlottenc.gov/cmpd/News-Information/Newsroom/Eight-Officers-Shot-One-CMPD-Officer-and-Three-U.S.-Marshals-Fugitive-Task-Force-Officers-Killed-During-Investigation-4-29-2024

Point is, whether it's with a gun, or a knife, or "Magic" you're going to find examples all over of someone doing something bad, and them causing all kinds of havoc against trained or untrained people, because the human condition is as I've said before... 

[Ithillian Turambar]

Oh. This took a dark turn.

 

I thought we were all here cos we like wheel of time.

 

 

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/11/2025 at 4:15 PM, Ithillian Turambar said:

Oh. This took a dark turn.

 

I thought we were all here cos we like wheel of time.

 

 

Expand  

If I've learned anything, the answer is no.

Doesn't matter what your opinion on the show is, or what the book is... If what everyone believes is true, then apparently we all hate the books.

[Ithillian Turambar]

Maybe it's not a battle to be won.

 

Maybe we can like the books and like the show - which I do.

 

And maybe some people can not like the show for reasons. 

 

But it's really not worth stressing about winning a battle, that's impossible to win. You already have enough to do 🙂

[SinisterDeath]

  On 4/11/2025 at 4:45 PM, Ithillian Turambar said:

Maybe it's not a battle to be won.

 

Maybe we can like the books and like the show - which I do.

 

And maybe some people can not like the show for reasons. 

 

But it's really not worth stressing about winning a battle, that's impossible to win. You already have enough to do 🙂

Expand  

Agreed. 

 

There's always going to be conflicting ideas between two opposing view points on adaptations like this... and I or no one else is ever going to convince the other that they're right and the other party is wrong. 

 

We can have interesting dialogue/conversations and critiques going back and forth and both parties can grow out of it, as we each discover new things we may have missed in our own watches that help us reevaluate what it is we just saw and reframe it within our own minds...

 

Like you said, not all battles can be won... And I don't think anyone should be attempting to. Changing someone's Beliefs/Ideas by arguing with them over the internet is virtually impossible. It's like trying to teach a goat to how to knit a sweater.

The most we can do, is give a rebuttal, an answer to a question, an explanation for how something could work, but never try to constantly convince someone that they're wrong and that's why they should enjoy the show, or why they're wrong, and that's why they should hate the show.

 

You can be wrong or right about some detail of something happening in the show or the book, but you're well within your right to love or hate the show. I don't care if you love or hate the show, but it's never your right to postulate that hate/love to others in such a way that you're actively telling others that if you don't hate/love it you must be X or Y.

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 4:09 PM, SinisterDeath said:

I'm aware they weren't armed, but they were also "trained", and despite that what happened?

 

https://www.charlottenc.gov/cmpd/News-Information/Newsroom/Eight-Officers-Shot-One-CMPD-Officer-and-Three-U.S.-Marshals-Fugitive-Task-Force-Officers-Killed-During-Investigation-4-29-2024

Point is, whether it's with a gun, or a knife, or "Magic" you're going to find examples all over of someone doing something bad, and them causing all kinds of havoc against trained or untrained people, because the human condition is as I've said before... 

Expand  

They were unarmed vs a heavily armed opponent. It's the equivalent of all the Aes Sedai being shielded vs unshielded BA.

 

At no point did I say it was impossible for people to be ambushed.

 

Yet again the initial argument from other people was that the loyal Aes Sedai could not produce shields because they lacked the training or experience to do so. It is not unacceptable for me to reference the fact that an untrained channeler managed to insta cast a shield in relation to this argument.

[Mailman]

  On 4/11/2025 at 5:25 PM, SinisterDeath said:

 

You can be wrong or right about some detail of something happening in the show or the book, but you're well within your right to love or hate the show. I don't care if you love or hate the show, but it's never your right to postulate that hate/love to others in such a way that you're actively telling others that if you don't hate/love it you must be X or Y.

Expand  

 

  On 4/11/2025 at 2:12 PM, SinisterDeath said:

No answer I give you, the show runner gives you, or anyone gives you is going to be good enough for you, because it's not the answer you want to hear or read.

 

The answer you want is that the show is bad, the writers are bad, and that they should probably go jump off a cliff for being so bad at their jobs, right?

Expand  

 

Edited April 13 by Mailman

[Elder_Haman]

  On 4/12/2025 at 12:24 AM, Mailman said:

loyal Aes Sedai could not produce shields because they lacked the training or experience to do so.

Expand  

No one argued this.