The writers WANT to change WoT and they didn't have to

[Jon Duran]

WoT has been a part of my life twice as long as my wife has, and 4x as long as my oldest kid. Just for some context. I made a dragonmount login after wotmania closed down and they encouraged everybody to register here. When I met RJ at a signing he thrilled me by going super deep into the implications of the Dark One breaking all the way free, and I wish I could have another conversation with him because I think my question poked at where he ended up going and he didn't give me a RAFO but he kind of fudged a bit 😄... anyways, I have thoughts.

 

When they announced an Amazon series, I like everybody was thrilled. Finally, we can see this come to life. RJ had passed and was obviously not involved, Harriet is happy to not dominate how others shepherd the story (I had a lot of problem with Sanderson's stewardship), but... so many scenes and moments we had in our heads would finally be brought to dramatic high quality light.

 

When they announced the cast I was disappointed. It was very clear, and the showrunner interviews confirmed, that they were going to use WoT as "inspiration" for the story THEY wanted to tell. To those of us who feel such ownership with these characters and story, that was very difficult to swallow.

 

But I made up some headcanon that really helped, and I think the showrunners made a HUGE mistake when they didn't formalize this. All they needed to do was to say at the very, very start that their show was ANOTHER TURNING OF THE WHEEL. The books we read & cherished happened, full stop. Every last detail of every character moment, every seemingly minor thing, it all happened. What this show was going to dramatize is ANOTHER turning of the wheel. Things will be similar. Ta'veren are ta'veren and will always be prominent, their themes will be their themes. But things don't always happen the same way. Smaller characters may or may not impact them and influence them the same in each Turning. The Dragon's journey ends the same, even if he (SHE!?) doesn't always get there the same way. Etc.

 

It would have been a PERFECT setup. We all could collectively exhale, cherish the story we knew, and get ***EXCITED*** to see what things would be different and what things would rhyme and what things would be the same. They could even weave in direct call-outs and ties to the stories, or emphasize parts that are different and use the differences as story points in and of themselves. Etc. It was a PERFECT in-universe way to adapt a book to a new medium, we know adapting books to TV/movies always involves compromise but that could become PART of the appeal.

 

There's a reason that's not what they did. It's because agenda-driven storytelling like you have with this show is not interested in living side-by-side with the content it is drawn from. The intent is to CHANGE or "improve" or "update" the story of the Wheel of Time. There were "problematic" issues of race, gender, sex, and power balances in Jordan's WoT. So this is an opportunity to re-tell and "correct" those things. They don't want a *different version* of Egwene for us to enjoy, they want an *updated* version of Egwene to replace the old one. Etc. This is not a harebrained theory, the writers talk about this very plainly.

 

It's sad. This isn't the only IP to have this happen to it (Rings of Power cough cough). In my experience, once you have a story that is explicitly agenda-driven, you encounter another serious drawback. The writing tends to privilege the agenda over character especially, and to a lesser degree plot. I won't go too much into this because it's been hashed out plenty of times already. But the point I wanted to make as I was browsing the forum is that it didn't have to be this way.

[books of Robert Jordan]

17 hours ago, Jon Duran said:

I made a dragonmount login after wotmania closed down

 

DM never had been inferior to wotmania.

 

And, by the way, 'wotmania' is still 'alive'.

[Kaleb]

21 hours ago, Jon Duran said:

We all could collectively exhale, cherish the story we knew, and get ***EXCITED*** to see what things would be different and what things would rhyme and what things would be the same.

Or you could just do this on your own like other long-time book fans who also love the TV show are doing, and not expect some awkward shoehorning of "This is the Wheel Of Time, but different!" from the production team in the promo materials. As you note, the WoT is particularly well-adapted to interpretation with our whole "legend fades to myth and even myth is long forgotten..." theme explicitly repeated in Chapter 1 of every book. The theme of personally and ideologically agenda-driven narratives is foregrounded throughout the entire series, so it continues to surprise me when long-time fans act as if their reading of the story is the correct one, as if that's even possible in the face of the confused web of misunderstanding that is at the core of WoT.

Edited July 30 by Kaleb

[Jon Duran]

4 hours ago, books of Robert Jordan said:

 

DM never had been inferior to wotmania.

 

And, by the way, 'wotmania' is still 'alive'.

 

I never meant to imply inferiority or anything, just describing my own journey. I remember getting the message from wotmania saying they were shutting down and encouraged everybody to come here. For whatever reason that's the community that I plugged into, I already knew about Dragonmount (who didn't!?)

[king of nowhere]

6 hours ago, Kaleb said:

Or you could just do this on your own like other long-time book fans who also love the TV show are doing, and not expect some awkward shoehorning of "This is the Wheel Of Time, but different!" from the production team in the promo materials.

yeah, it's not like you actually need rafe's assent to say "the books are canon"

[Jon Duran]

No, and if that was the main point of my post, it would be a simple as that. 

[HeronMarkedBlade]

On 7/30/2024 at 8:31 AM, books of Robert Jordan said:

 

DM never had been inferior to wotmania.

 

And, by the way, 'wotmania' is still 'alive'.

To be fair, it was inferior. Wotmania was far more active with lively discussion for many years before its demise.

[books of Robert Jordan]

7 hours ago, HeronMarkedBlade said:

To be fair, it was inferior. Wotmania was far more active with lively discussion for many years before its demise.

 

There were many quality posts by/from quality commenters on DM, Wm, TV, TL (a pity what happened to them) etc, or even at ASOIAF etc. Usually the same people, albeit many times with different usernames. True, the days with Callandor, DomA, Cannoli, Gonzo, Davian etcetc will never come back (and I really miss Terez, Mr Ares etc) again, and DM was much more moderated than the other sites, DM was and is still a very good place to discuss WOT.

(DM was always accused by some folks that 'they only post about "Who is the stronger?"', but that's not true.)

 

edit: I forgot to mention rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan where one still can find useful informations, but I was just a reader there, I didn't participate in anything.

Edited September 17 by books of Robert Jordan

[HeronMarkedBlade]

14 hours ago, books of Robert Jordan said:

 

There were many quality posts by/from quality commenters on DM, Wm, TV, TL (a pity what happened to them) etc, or even at ASOIAF etc. Usually the same people, albeit many times with different usernames. True, the days with Callandor, DomA, Cannoli, Gonzo, Davian etcetc will never come back (and I really miss Terez, Mr Ares etc) again, and DM was much more moderated than the other sites, DM was and is still a very good place to discuss WOT.

(DM was always accused by some folks that 'they only post about "Who is the stronger?"', but that's not true.)

 

edit: I forgot to mention rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan where one still can find useful informations, but I was just a reader there, I didn't participate in anything.

Oh, I’m in no way trying to malign DM, just pointing out WoTMania was once a very lively place to talk about the series 

[ssgcmwatson]

One of my guildies on DDO said something very similar, and I think it is a decent take.

[Geneyus]

 

The show is funded by amazon(Bezos, the greediest person who ever walked the planet). Amazon only ever does anything that makes quick money.

So Harriet Jordan sold the rights to her husbands life's work to amazon for a $$$$ check that allows whoever Jeff Bezos wants to let use the WOT world however they want to.  And in that simple concept of greed the people Bezos put in charge of a great and complicated story have distilled it down , turned the characters, and storyline not just upside down, but sideways and backwards. 

The very first episode is so devoid of the most important things. Rand and Egwene are actually kissing? Where is Thom Merrelyn? Perrin has a wife? And a beard? Matt's a POS scumbag? They ruined every character from the word go.

And Nyneave is black?

Edited Wednesday at 08:34 PM by SinisterDeath
language

[king of nowhere]

On 12/10/2024 at 3:51 AM, Geneyus said:

The very first episode is so devoid of the most important things. Rand and Egwene are actually kissing? Where is Thom Merrelyn? Perrin has a wife? And a beard? Matt's a POS scumbag? They ruined every character from the word go.

And Nyneave is black?

i don't want to argue on the general merit, or lack thereof, of the tv show, nor on the general work of rafe &co, nor am i interested in whom to blame in the long list of people with power to write or dictate or in any way influence the plot.

 

but i have to express disagreement on that paragraph. none of the things you mention is even remotely important in the large scale plot - except perhaps perrin having a wife that dies shortly after, which is mildly important at best.

by "not important" i mean, if you were tasked to write a one-page summary of the wheel of time, it wouldn't mention any of that stuff.

[Samt]

19 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

i don't want to argue on the general merit, or lack thereof, of the tv show, nor on the general work of rafe &co, nor am i interested in whom to blame in the long list of people with power to write or dictate or in any way influence the plot.

 

but i have to express disagreement on that paragraph. none of the things you mention is even remotely important in the large scale plot - except perhaps perrin having a wife that dies shortly after, which is mildly important at best.

by "not important" i mean, if you were tasked to write a one-page summary of the wheel of time, it wouldn't mention any of that stuff.

A one page summary would never include a list of things that didn't happen or shouldn't be included. By that logic, Rand killing his father in a fit of rage would also not be a huge departure from the book since Tam probably doesn't even make the 1 page summary.   

 

From a character development standpoint, Rand being innocent and Mat not being a scumbag are sort of important.  And Perrin growing into his own sense of manhood is very important.  None of the things mentioned sink the show on its own. They are just huge red flags that the creators don't get it.  TV needs to use images and symbols to efficiently give us information about the characters and story.  These symbols and images are contradicting what needs to be told about the characters early on to set them up for their book arcs.  

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

20 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

i don't want to argue on the general merit, or lack thereof, of the tv show, nor on the general work of rafe &co, nor am i interested in whom to blame in the long list of people with power to write or dictate or in any way influence the plot.

 

but i have to express disagreement on that paragraph. none of the things you mention is even remotely important in the large scale plot - except perhaps perrin having a wife that dies shortly after, which is mildly important at best.

by "not important" i mean, if you were tasked to write a one-page summary of the wheel of time, it wouldn't mention any of that stuff.

I think the only things I hated in the first episode was the "Perrin has a wife? Matt's a POS scumbag?". I have lots of issues with other episodes, but those manly revolve around them just making up whole episodes that have nothing to do with the story and I felt like they were written poorly. I have rank season 1 as a C- and season 2 as a B-, hoping Season 3 will move to a A. The hard thing for me is how bad they have handled both season final. The trailer is giving hope.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Samt said:

A one page summary would never include a list of things that didn't happen or shouldn't be included. By that logic, Rand killing his father in a fit of rage would also not be a huge departure from the book since Tam probably doesn't even make the 1 page summary.   

 

From a character development standpoint, Rand being innocent and Mat not being a scumbag are sort of important.  And Perrin growing into his own sense of manhood is very important.  None of the things mentioned sink the show on its own.

mat is not a scumbag, at least it's not his core. in S1E1, during the attack, he goes out of hiding to look for his sisters. the hero that complains a lot, swears he's no hero, then goes doing heroic things, is quintessential mat.

rand being romantically innocent is not an important side of his character, and neither are perrin's issues with manhood - they are shadowed by his conflicts about leadership and his relation with the wolf inside.

[Kaleb]

Rand/Mat/Perrin's internal monologue of "Rand/Mat/Perrin would know what to do about women" is amusing enough the first few times in the books before it gets tiresome. It seems like a subset of readers think that's a core dynamic of the characters, and I could not disagree more.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Mat's character was awful until RJ ripped it up and started again with his healing. 

 

How could heavy drinking, womanizing, and gambling Mat grow up in a village that has one tavern run by Marín al'Vere? The Two Rivers was a poor copy of the Shire in the first book, and the main characters acting like children while being twenty made no sense except in that hairy footed fantasy. 

 

Not saying I necessarily agree with all the changes, but a maturing of the Two Rivers and the Emonds Field Four seems rather inevitable in any adaptation. Either that or a streamlining of the story and starting at a different point. As the first book is a lot of exposition as the characters learn about the world that sets up the reader to understand who and what the Dragon is, a lot of it is unnecessary as a show can probably never employ the same technique. The flight from the Two Rivers could be told in a flashback in broad brush strokes. Or some such device, anyway. 

Edited December 10 by HeavyHalfMoonBlade

[Samt]

45 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Mat's character was awful until RJ ripped it up and started again with his healing. 

 

How could heavy drinking, womanizing, and gambling Mat grow up in a village that has one tavern run by Marín al'Vere? The Two Rivers was a poor copy of the Shire in the first book, and the main characters acting like children while being twenty made no sense except in that hairy footed fantasy. 

 

Not saying I necessarily agree with all the changes, but a maturing of the Two Rivers and the Emonds Field Four seems rather inevitable in any adaptation. Either that or a streamlining of the story and starting at a different point. As the first book is a lot of exposition as the characters learn about the world that sets up the reader to understand who and what the Dragon is, a lot of it is unnecessary as a show can probably never employ the same technique. The flight from the Two Rivers could be told in a flashback in broad brush strokes. Or some such device, anyway. 

Have you met any 20 year olds?  They act like children all the time.  

I agree that Mat's character is sort of weird early on since it's simultaneously implied that he has some experience carousing and also that he doesn't.  And, as you say, how could he?  

[king of nowhere]

27 minutes ago, Samt said:

Have you met any 20 year olds?  They act like children all the time.  
 

as a high school teacher, i met a lot of almost-20-years-old, and I can say that they have a lot of variety.

some act like children all the time. some keep doing it even in their old age.

some are basically adults already at 15.

and of course you have all shades in between.

so, the notion that a character is too immature or too mature for his age is moot. people are different.

 

that said, people tend to mature faster in a society where they are expected to help their elders with work before age 10 and to marry before they are 20.

[muddasssir]

lol I guess i can add my 2 cents by saying right out that show is pathetic to say the least. and absolutely waste of time on all counts. Mat's character is shown flawed with a dysfunctional family. Which is complete opposite of the way Mat was brought up in a normal family and had the stabilty at home that allowed him to become what he becomes. Core of his peronality was never corrupt. We hear so much about Mat from Nynaeve's, Egwene's and others POVs. Which is coloured by the biases of the said character and that ws the most beautiful part of the character development of Mat. So people who have just read chapter summaries telling us how the books portrayed Mat is bit hard to take. Please go back and read book before making ill informed guesses

[DojoToad]

5 hours ago, muddasssir said:

lol I guess i can add my 2 cents by saying right out that show is pathetic to say the least. and absolutely waste of time on all counts. Mat's character is shown flawed with a dysfunctional family. Which is complete opposite of the way Mat was brought up in a normal family and had the stabilty at home that allowed him to become what he becomes. Core of his peronality was never corrupt. We hear so much about Mat from Nynaeve's, Egwene's and others POVs. Which is coloured by the biases of the said character and that ws the most beautiful part of the character development of Mat. So people who have just read chapter summaries telling us how the books portrayed Mat is bit hard to take. Please go back and read book before making ill informed guesses

Thanks for adding specifics as to what you didn't like.

 

I personally think this is one of the things Rafe got right.  Mat is one of the good guys.  Him coming from a dysfunctional family and having his own flaws makes him more interesting.  In the books, the Congars and the Coplins were the black sheep in the Two Rivers - but they were barely tertiary characters without huge impact on the story.  Having one of the main characters, Mat, be less than squeaky clean is more realistic to me.  It adds tension to the story.  Will he do the right thing when the chips are down?  Will he betray Rand or others?  Will he redeem himself?

 

I loved Mat in the books, but I think his show character can be even better.

[BookMattBetterThanShow]

1 hour ago, DojoToad said:

I loved Mat in the books, but I think his show character can be even better.

I disagree, but hope you are right

[DojoToad]

1 minute ago, BookMattBetterThanShow said:

I disagree, but hope you are right

can being the operative word.  They might still blow up the character.  Just think there is potential there...