Healing Stilling/Gentling

[Word]

I have been wondering this for a while... When Nynaeve healed Logain he was returned to full strength but Leane and Siuan only regained a fraction of their former strength in channeling. When Damer Flinn healed the three Aes Sedai that Rand stilled, it makes no mention of them being weaker in the power than before. Is this just left out, or does this mean that Women can return Men to full strength and vice versa. And if this is the case, can Damer and pals then reheal Leane and Siuan so they can be top dogs again? I didnt really see another thread on this,so if this is a question that comes up frequently I apologize.

[Jedimuppet]

I have been wondering this for a while... When Nynaeve healed Logain he was returned to full strength but Leane and Siuan only regained a fraction of their former strength in channeling. When Damer Flinn healed the three Aes Sedai that Rand stilled' date=' it makes no mention of them being weaker in the power than before. Is this just left out, or does this mean that Women can return Men to full strength and vice versa. And if this is the case, can Damer and pals then reheal Leane and Siuan so they can be top dogs again? I didnt really see another thread on this,so if this is a question that comes up frequently I apologize.[/quote']

 

Apparently people healed by a member of the opposite sex regain full strength, while those healed by the same sex are far reduced.

 

I've often thought that Suian and Leane should allow themselves to be stilled again so that a man can heal them. That would show the sisters who insist on rubbing their noses in their new, reduced status.

J

[Guest cwestervelt]

RJ has confirmed the effectiveness of stilling being a gender related issue in his blog.

 

For Alys Kinch, the Healing of stilling must be done by the other gender to be fully effective. A woman Healing a woman or a man Healing a man results in less than full restoration. It all ties into that theme I keep harping on. Men and women have to work together to be their most effective. And while the weave used by Flinn for Healing is not exactly that used by Nynaeve, either would use the same weave on a man or a woman.

 

Now, in all honesty, do you think either Suian or Leanne would want to go through stilling again on the chance that Damer could do a better job? For all they know, they would either get returned to their current level of ability, or be even further reduced.

 

At one time I believed that re-stilling them and having Damer do the Healing would return Suian and Leanne to their original ability level. After further consideration, I know longer believe that to be likely. The original damage caused by the Stilling has been repaired. Restilling would result in a new "wound" that needed to be Healed. If Damer were then to try Healing, it would be this new damage that would get repaired, not the original already corrected damage.

[Jedimuppet]

RJ has confirmed the effectiveness of stilling being a gender related issue in his blog.

 

For Alys Kinch' date=' the Healing of stilling must be done by the other gender to be fully effective. A woman Healing a woman or a man Healing a man results in less than full restoration. It all ties into that theme I keep harping on. Men and women have to work together to be their most effective. And while the weave used by Flinn for Healing is not exactly that used by Nynaeve, either would use the same weave on a man or a woman.[/quote']

 

Now, in all honesty, do you think either Suian or Leanne would want to go through stilling again on the chance that Damer could do a better job? For all they know, they would either get returned to their current level of ability, or be even further reduced.

 

At one time I believed that re-stilling them and having Damer do the Healing would return Suian and Leanne to their original ability level. After further consideration, I know longer believe that to be likely. The original damage caused by the Stilling has been repaired. Restilling would result in a new "wound" that needed to be Healed. If Damer were then to try Healing, it would be this new damage that would get repaired, not the original already corrected damage.

 

That's an interesting idea, and it might be right. For me it would be worth the risk;you can't make it worse. For purposes of my argument, I was imagining that they put together Logain's healing to full with the stilled sisters being healed to full. I know they don't know about it yet, but I bet they will in the next book.

 

J

[Siswaiaman]

If there was a wound to be healed, then there was something there in the first place.

I.e. there is or isn't something else in normal people.

 

Would a circle be able to change that?

Would the DO be able to change that?

[Guest cwestervelt]

Note, I refered to what was Healed as a "wound" in a quoted sence. It isn't something physically visible, but it can be sensed. Nynaeve definitely notes that something was cut and that cut is what she patches.

 

In his blog, RJ has verified that a male Channeller would use the same weave to Heal a woman and a man of Stilling, and that a female Channeller would use the same weave to Heal a woman and a man of Stilling. The same technique implies the same flaw needs to be fixed. Once fixed, you can't "re-fix" it. Suian and Leanne had Nynaeve attempt, but the damage caused by Stilling was gone. There was nothing left to Heal. To me that indicates a re-stilling would cause a new cut and Healing that would only repair the new damamge.

 

This is just my opinion and I don't expect anyone else to accept it.

[Graendals favourite]

I've envisioned the Healing as a bridging of a channel, or a straw, for example. If a woman heals a woman, then the healing would cause a lump of saidar around the edges of the straw in the healed point, thus reducing the amount of flow that can go through. Same for man-man. Then, if they heal each other, saidar doesn't obstruct saidin and vice versa, so the healing would be better. So I've thought that Lanfear has actually lost as much of her ability as Siuan and Leane, but her being so much stronger to begin with, the fringe-of-the-straw lump doesn't count as much.

 

Well, that's just my mental image, may just as well be wrong.

[Guest cwestervelt]

You leave out the crucial point of "who could have Healed Lanfear" had she been stilled. None of the Foresaken were able to do so. The what and how of the Dark One's capabilities there is an unknown. He could probably do it, but seeing how that would be True Power, not One Power based, we don't have anything to base the net result on.

[Graendals favourite]

Mmm, a black rebel Aes Sedai could have Healed her. Moghedien knew they'd discovered that, and Moridin could command black sisters. At the beginning of PoD, Moridin knows about the discovery.

 

Alternatively, Moridin or the Dark One could have ordered Semirhage, the master Healer, to learn from a black Salidar Aes Sedai.

[Ilyena]

It couldn't be a black sister though. First of all, at the time of Lanfear's death, no one had figured out the healing to stilling. Including Nynaeve. She only figured that out a few books later. Also, we can't say a forsaken did it either, since Moghedien also realized what nynaeve had done was totally original, and that no one in AoL could do it either. This leaves the DO and his OP (which may have half healed stilling), SH, and his super mydraal powers (very doubt this) or some wierd side effect to having been stilled by the foxes, or falling through the gateway with the power.

 

My theory is that the foxes stilled her, since Rand was able to channel in front of the Eelfinn (he pulled out his fire-sword) and because the foxes had the ability to create Mat's terangreal (which absorbes flows of Saidin and Saidar). The foxes most likely stilled, then killed her since she was a danger with the power, and was part of the shadow. However, it could have also been the fact that she was killed in another realm which meant her reborn spirit would have a lesser channeling ability, almost like leaving some essense of herself behind.

[Graendals favourite]

I want to point out, that Lanfear need not have been Healed before her re-emergence in the world, which was in PoD: New Alliances if my memory serves.

 

The discovery was original, but it became common knowledge in Salidar, at least amongst the Yellow. If in need, Semirhage would well have been able to learn.

 

 

Since Balthamel still channels saidin, I think the stilling might well pass on to Lanfear's new life, transmigrated not reborn.

[Siswaiaman]

Noone answered my question... :(

Can you create a channeler?

 

Why have we assumed that lannfear was stilled? Do we even know if the Finn can channel? My opinion is no, and as such they would not be able to sense or still channelers.

 

Why no channeling? Based on the theory that non-humans can't channel (ogier, shadowspawn, and to my knowledge, nym(?).), then neither can the finns.

[Graendals favourite]

As I remember, channelling is both body and soul. If the soul cannot channel, the body changed to being able to channel wouldn't help. But I don't know more.

 

The assumption of Lanfear being stilled comes from her weakening, the cause of which we know is is as with Siuan and Leane.

 

I somehow seem to remember the Finns cannot channel, but that could have been another ability.

[Simple Gleeman]

In his blog' date=' RJ has verified that a male Channeller would use the same weave to Heal a woman and a man of Stilling, and that a female Channeller would use the same weave to Heal a woman and a man of Stilling. The same technique implies the same flaw needs to be fixed. Once fixed, you can't "re-fix" it. Suian and Leanne had Nynaeve attempt, but the damage caused by Stilling was gone. There was nothing left to Heal. To me that indicates a re-stilling would cause a new cut and Healing that would only repair the new damamge.

 

This is just my opinion and I don't expect anyone else to accept it.[/quote']

 

Yes, Siuan and Leane had Nynaeve reattempt to Heal them further. What hasn't been attempted yet is Damer healing one of them. Who is to say whether Damer wouldn't be able to improve on one of them?

 

I think of the Healing Nynaeve did for Siuan and Leane as a scar. Or maybe like the wound in Rand's side. It's "Healed" technically but its not the same. I think Damer could restore them to their full strength. Nynaeve used saidar to Heal a saidar user. Men and women did their best work together in the Age of Legends. Perhaps men needing to heal women and women needing to heal men is just that.

 

The question is whether Damer will have the opportunity.

[Jedimuppet]

Please tell me why everyone thinks Lanfear was stilled? IT makes absolutely no sense, because she *died*. Even if she was stilled, that would be a phsyical effect on her body that is now *dead*. The DO does not have very many limitations when dealing with dead souls, and he can bring you back in any way he chooses.

 

I see no reason to suspect she was stilled, but everyone thinks it, so I wonder what I'm missing.

J

[rd2000]

I agree, she was NOT stilled. She died, was resurrected by the DO, the new body did NOT have the gifts bestowed by the 'finns and therefore her powerlevel was as it was BEFORE her first visit to the 'finns in the AOL.

[Caerlie]

Note' date=' I refered to what was Healed as a "wound" in a quoted sence. It isn't something physically visible, but it can be sensed. Nynaeve definitely notes that something was cut and that cut is what she patches.

 

In his blog, RJ has verified that a male Channeller would use the same weave to Heal a woman and a man of Stilling, and that a female Channeller would use the same weave to Heal a woman and a man of Stilling. The same technique implies the same flaw needs to be fixed. Once fixed, you can't "re-fix" it. Suian and Leanne had Nynaeve attempt, but the damage caused by Stilling was gone. There was nothing left to Heal. To me that indicates a re-stilling would cause a new cut and Healing that would only repair the new damamge.

 

This is just my opinion and I don't expect anyone else to accept it.[/quote']

 

 

I understand where you’re coming from and know that Nynaeve couldn’t sense anything to heal but perhaps that’s because she’s using saidar to sense and can only sense missing saidar.

 

To take analogy further of the bridge or a road I’m imagining say a big stone bridge say with two lanes, Nynaeve has healed it in the sense that she’s put back the stone but it only covers one lane, cause that’s all she can sense. So if Damer or similar come along they can mend the other lane and the bridge is back to full strength again.

 

 

oh and i don't understand why people think Lanfear was stilled either. Do we expect Moiraine to come back at full strength?

[Jedimuppet]

Note' date=' I refered to what was Healed as a "wound" in a quoted sence. It isn't something physically visible, but it can be sensed. Nynaeve definitely notes that something was cut and that cut is what she patches.

 

In his blog, RJ has verified that a male Channeller would use the same weave to Heal a woman and a man of Stilling, and that a female Channeller would use the same weave to Heal a woman and a man of Stilling. The same technique implies the same flaw needs to be fixed. Once fixed, you can't "re-fix" it. Suian and Leanne had Nynaeve attempt, but the damage caused by Stilling was gone. There was nothing left to Heal. To me that indicates a re-stilling would cause a new cut and Healing that would only repair the new damamge.

 

This is just my opinion and I don't expect anyone else to accept it.[/quote']

 

 

I understand where you’re coming from and know that Nynaeve couldn’t sense anything to heal but perhaps that’s because she’s using saidar to sense and can only sense missing saidar.

 

To take analogy further of the bridge or a road I’m imagining say a big stone bridge say with two lanes, Nynaeve has healed it in the sense that she’s put back the stone but it only covers one lane, cause that’s all she can sense. So if Damer or similar come along they can mend the other lane and the bridge is back to full strength again.

 

 

oh and i don't understand why people think Lanfear was stilled either. Do we expect Moiraine to come back at full strength?

 

Moiraine hasn't died, and I suspect she wasn't stilled..

 

Plus had Lanfear been stilled, does anyone actually believe the DO couldn't heal her to full strength if he wanted to?

 

Maybe he was a little miffed that she offered to help Rand overthrow him and rule in his place and punished her hubris with a little weakness.

 

J

[Graendals favourite]

I haven't thought on this much, but the reduction in strength seems to imply stilling, as the male counterpart hadn't been found out yet. I suppose it is a question of whether the stilling will pass on in transmigration. I think if the Dark One could change people's strengths, then the transmigrated Forsaken should all be stronger, or at least some, but none has mentioned any change except for Lanfear. And, Balthamel still channels saidin, even though in a woman's body.

 

Btw, definitely different gender Healing should work perfectly, Nynaeve Healing Logain, and the Asha'man the stilled Tower captive sisters.

[Jedimuppet]

I haven't thought on this much' date=' but the reduction in strength seems to imply stilling, as the male counterpart hadn't been found out yet. I suppose it is a question of whether the stilling will pass on in transmigration. I think if the Dark One could change people's strengths, then the transmigrated Forsaken should all be stronger, or at least some, but none has mentioned any change except for Lanfear. And, Balthamel still channels saidin, even though in a woman's body.

 

Btw, definitely different gender Healing should work perfectly, Nynaeve Healing Logain, and the Asha'man the stilled Tower captive sisters.[/quote']

 

It makes no sense for me that a stilling and reduction in strength should transcend death. It may be that each soul has an upper limit that cannot be crossed, but I believe the DO capable of pretty much anything if he has a soul in his grasp. I find that much more likely than the effects of stilling transcending death.

J

[Graendals favourite]

Yea, if the stilling were part of the soul it might transcend, but the former body shouldn't matter, true.

 

Hmm.., is it by the way certain that Lanfear died? I can't remember. She must have, though, though I don't remember her mentioning any such. Perhaps her new body is less channel-able then.

[Jedimuppet]

Yea' date=' if the stilling were part of the soul it might transcend, but the former body shouldn't matter, true.

 

Hmm.., is it by the way certain that Lanfear died? I can't remember. She must have, though, though I don't remember her mentioning any such. Perhaps her new body is less channel-able then.[/quote']

 

I guess it's not out and out said but we know that the other forsaken think she did from the beginning of KoD. Also, she does appear to have been transmigrated, for which death is a prereq.

 

I don't think any Forsaken but Cyndane have come back weaker, even though they have made mention of using weaker stock. I believe the body doesn't matter, but when it's invested with a soul that can channel, something does happen to the body that makes it part of the deal. Otherwise, I dont' see how you can heal stilling.

J

J

[Graendals favourite]

I do remember RJ stating that channelling is both body and soul, I think it was in the blog or question of the week. I think whatever is done to people is done to their body or mind, but not the the soul.

 

Hah, but being transmigrated, Lanfear retained her mind. Cyndane is not her reborn, with a personality of her own, but Lanfear herself, and this part can have been severed, and will have transcended into her Last Chance. So it is completely possible she was severed before dying. Even going through the doorway could be dangerous, holding that much power. Had Moiraine been stilled, would that not have resulted in what Lan experienced, no. I smell a theory.

[loki redfern]

the forsaken don't know how to heal severing though so if lanfear had been severed then died and been tranmigrated this would have either reversed the effect fully or she still would have been severed

[Graendals favourite]

The Salidar Aes Sedai know how to. Moghedien knew they did. In the beginning of PoD Moridin, who'd claimed Moghedien, knew they did. Cyndane made her entry in PoD.