Healing Stilling/Gentling

[HighLordXanthus]

I may be alone in this thought, but when I first read about lanfear, my thinking was not of her death OR stilling.

 

Lanfear and Moiraine passed through the twisted door together, full of the power. Lanfear i remember had an angreal, and i think moiraine did aswell. The door melted down, so now the only way back to the real world is tower of genji(sp?). Lord Luc could have fetched lanfear back.

 

Now, to explain lanfear's new appearance and lower power level. Could it now be that there was a merging and sharing between the two women, similarly to what happened to the twisted door? Or could the finn's have instead of killing lanfear for her ties to the Dark One, have put a price to her freedom?

 

It has been my though since first reading of them falling through the door way and then lanfears reappearance that BOTH have been altered by that step through to the finn's world. Which would mean that Moiraine would, when rescued, return with greater strenght and new appearence!!!

[Jedimuppet]

I may be alone in this thought' date=' but when I first read about lanfear, my thinking was not of her death OR stilling.

 

Lanfear and Moiraine passed through the twisted door together, full of the power. Lanfear i remember had an angreal, and i think moiraine did aswell. The door melted down, so now the only way back to the real world is tower of genji(sp?). Lord Luc could have fetched lanfear back.

 

Now, to explain lanfear's new appearance and lower power level. Could it now be that there was a merging and sharing between the two women, similarly to what happened to the twisted door? Or could the finn's have instead of killing lanfear for her ties to the Dark One, have put a price to her freedom?

 

It has been my though since first reading of them falling through the door way and then lanfears reappearance that BOTH have been altered by that step through to the finn's world. Which would mean that Moiraine would, when rescued, return with greater strenght and new appearence!!![/quote']

 

Lanfear died and reappeared as Cyndane with a mindtrap to commemorate her failure in her previous life.

J

[rd2000]

Is it too simple to believe that Cyndane's power level is Lanfear's pre-Finn?

 

I tend to believe the less times you have to "make-up" or "suppose" something happened off-screen, the more likely it is. Hence, if theory A requires that B,C,D and E had to happen off-screen, then it is less likely than theory F, which requires G,H and I to happen off-screen.

[Jedimuppet]

Is it too simple to believe that Cyndane's power level is Lanfear's pre-Finn?

 

I tend to believe the less times you have to "make-up" or "suppose" something happened off-screen' date=' the more likely it is. Hence, if theory A requires that B,C,D and E had to happen off-screen, then it is less likely than theory F, which requires G,H and I to happen off-screen.[/quote']

 

But her decrease in power is noted...it's common knowledge that Cyndane is less powerful than Lanfear.

J

[rd2000]

Is it too simple to believe that Cyndane's power level is Lanfear's pre-Finn?

 

I tend to believe the less times you have to "make-up" or "suppose" something happened off-screen' date=' the more likely it is. Hence, if theory A requires that B,C,D and E had to happen off-screen, then it is less likely than theory F, which requires G,H and I to happen off-screen.[/quote']

 

But her decrease in power is noted...it's common knowledge that Cyndane is less powerful than Lanfear.

J

 

Exactly, my point being that when Lanfear died she lost her gift's (beauty and power) and reverted to her "natural" state of beauty and level of power.

[Jedimuppet]

Is it too simple to believe that Cyndane's power level is Lanfear's pre-Finn?

 

I tend to believe the less times you have to "make-up" or "suppose" something happened off-screen' date=' the more likely it is. Hence, if theory A requires that B,C,D and E had to happen off-screen, then it is less likely than theory F, which requires G,H and I to happen off-screen.[/quote']

 

But her decrease in power is noted...it's common knowledge that Cyndane is less powerful than Lanfear.

J

 

Exactly, my point being that when Lanfear died she lost her gift's (beauty and power) and reverted to her "natural" state of beauty and level of power.

 

Oh, I misunderstood your point. I heard the notion that she was somehow "enhanced", but I'm not sure where that came from. If those gifts were truly external, I could seem them not surviving death. Of course, we know appearance never survives death (aran'gar and osan'gar, for example).

J

[HighLordXanthus]

Why is it so that lanfear had to die to reappear in the mind trap. that was not so for Moghedien. Once she was set free from the rebel camp by halima, she later became victom of a mindtrap as punishment for her capture!!

 

Unless a particular reason can be given otherwise, the theory of lanfear's survival could be possible.

[rd2000]

Moggy and Lanfear both were mindtrapped for punishment. They both set their personal agenda's above the DO's. Moggy didn't die from her mistake, Lanfear did.

[Jedimuppet]

Why is it so that lanfear had to die to reappear in the mind trap. that was not so for Moghedien. Once she was set free from the rebel camp by halima' date=' she later became victom of a mindtrap as punishment for her capture!!

 

Unless a particular reason can be given otherwise, the theory of lanfear's survival could be possible.[/quote']

 

Except you don't get reincarnated as someone else without dying.

J

[HighLordXanthus]

Either way it is just assumption that she did in fact die. If she did die, and was replaced in a new body, her ability to channel would have molded to the new body, as Halima's did. Halima as a man reborn into a woman's form channels saidin. There is no known loss of strength for Halima.

 

Then why Lanfear's loss of strength. If she did indeed die and was reborn, that would have returned her ability to channel. No need to heal severing.

 

If looked at that way my theory is just as valid as the other. Indeed, we now know that Moiraine is alive to be saved, why is it impossible for Lanfear to have been likewise saved.

[Jedimuppet]

Either way it is just assumption that she did in fact die. If she did die' date=' and was replaced in a new body, her ability to channel would have molded to the new body, as Halima's did. Halima as a man reborn into a woman's form channels saidin. There is no known loss of strength for Halima.

 

Then why Lanfear's loss of strength. If she did indeed die and was reborn, that would have returned her ability to channel. No need to heal severing.

 

If looked at that way my theory is just as valid as the other. Indeed, we now know that Moiraine is alive to be saved, why is it impossible for Lanfear to have been likewise saved.[/quote']

 

There is proof that she died, and dying has nothing to do with your ability to channel. In fact the new body has nothing to do with it. Halima is proof of that. Some people say that she was enhanced by the finns, and so that enhancement wouldn't transcend death, but a soul has an ability to channel associated with it, and that transcends what body you're in.

 

My belief is that the loss of strength is meant as a punishment for Lanfear for conspiring against the DO with Rand. He wouldn't have even brought her back if tools weren't so scarce.

J

[HighLordXanthus]

Then I missed this proof of her death you tell about or you assume it. Do you remember where this is said? Perhaps a quote? Technically there is proof that Moiraine died as well in the severing of Lan and her bond, but we later learned that was not exactly so.

[Jedimuppet]

Then I missed this proof of her death you tell about or you assume it. Do you remember where this is said? Perhaps a quote? Technically there is proof that Moiraine died as well in the severing of Lan and her bond' date=' but we later learned that was not exactly so.[/quote']

 

No, there is no proof that Moiraine died, only proof that the bond with Lan was severed, which can happen in a variety of ways. Read WH again where Cyndane thinks about her revenge on Lews Therin. That should make it clear to you that Cyndane is Lanfear. The fact that she is Lanfear reincarnated proves her death as Lanfear. I think it's chapter 35.

J

[HighLordXanthus]

Here is i believe part of the quote you told me to seek.

 

Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger the Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have and angreal, too.(Winter's Heart, chapter 35, page 649, hb)

 

This scene only confirms that she was held, not killed :twisted:

[Jedimuppet]

Here is i believe part of the quote you told me to seek.

 

Then the woman struck back at her' date=' and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger the Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman [i']could[/i] be stronger. She must have and angreal, too.(Winter's Heart, chapter 35, page 649, hb)

 

This scene only confirms that she was held, not killed :twisted:

 

First of all, that wasn't the quote to which I was referring, but it will do. It proves that Cyndane is Lanfear.

 

So now we know that Cyndane is Lanfear reincarnated. If reincarnation doesn't imply death, what does?

J

[HighLordXanthus]

I never denied that Lanfear and Cyndane were one and the same. It seems that you are implying that a new name constitutes death and rebirth.

[Jedimuppet]

I never denied that Lanfear and Cyndane were one and the same. It seems that you are implying that a new name constitutes death and rebirth.

 

Yeah...like Moridin and Ishy, or the Gars...a new body means death...it's a theme in the book. Not sure what else to say.

J

[Child Olaf]

Then I missed this proof of her death you tell about or you assume it. Do you remember where this is said? Perhaps a quote? Technically there is proof that Moiraine died as well in the severing of Lan and her bond, but we later learned that was not exactly so.

 

If you need it spelled out for you then you are not paying attention. There are countless clues that add up to prove that Cyndane is a re-incarnated Lanfear. The only thing that the severing of Lan's bond proves is that the bond was severed (especially since we now know that she's alive). Moiraine said she had made certain "arrangements" to pass on his bond so that he wouldn't waste his life (since she knew she would live). She probably did put the contingency that either when she died, or when she tackled Lanfear into the red door ter'angreal then the bond would pass to Myrelle.

 

Maybe Lanfear wasn't stilled. She was holding as much of the power as she could to fight Rand, and then was tackled. If she lost control of that much of the power she may have burned herself out. That would take the DO himself to fix. Just a thought...

[HighLordXanthus]

Perhaps a new appearance does point to a new name of Cyndane, meaning "Last Chance" in the old tongue. With the name, as well as the cour'souvra, mind trap it is possible that she did not indeed die. The new appearance and power level could have been the finn's payment not to kill her and/or setting her free.

 

The name it self viewed in congunction with the mind trap could point to her having survived the finns. Who would reincarnate servant that had betrayed him? But to rescue, or let her escape herself, then brand her a new name telling all she has one "Last Chance"

 

Her new form is short and pretty, though not as pretty as her former. There could have been a give and take of atributes between moirain and lanfear as payment/punishment.

 

I am not saying that she did not infact die, only that I have long thought otherwise. You must atleast conceed the possibility the other way

[Jedimuppet]

Then I missed this proof of her death you tell about or you assume it. Do you remember where this is said? Perhaps a quote? Technically there is proof that Moiraine died as well in the severing of Lan and her bond' date=' but we later learned that was not exactly so.[/quote']

 

If you need it spelled out for you then you are not paying attention. There are countless clues that add up to prove that Cyndane is a re-incarnated Lanfear. The only thing that the severing of Lan's bond proves is that the bond was severed (especially since we now know that she's alive). Moiraine said she had made certain "arrangements" to pass on his bond so that he wouldn't waste his life (since she knew she would live). She probably did put the contingency that either when she died, or when she tackled Lanfear into the red door ter'angreal then the bond would pass to Myrelle.

 

Maybe Lanfear wasn't stilled. She was holding as much of the power as she could to fight Rand, and then was tackled. If she lost control of that much of the power she may have burned herself out. That would take the DO himself to fix. Just a thought...

 

I think whatever happened before she died is irrelevant. Coming back from the dead is like hitting a big reset switch. I don't see how any effects of stilling could persist through death, even if she was. I believe her power was reduced to remind her who's boss.

J

[Graendals favourite]

Just want to point out that channelling is something done with the mind, and thus not really completely physical. As I remember, Nynaeve noted there was nothing really wrong with Siuan and Leane physically. So the cut would also be in Lanfear's mind. Also, the mind of Lews Therin can channel in Rand's body even though it cannot access his body functions.

 

Being transmigrated, Lanfear obviously retained her mind as it was: her memories, skills, everything. So she in fact should also retain the mind-part of her channelling ability, and if that is cut, then it should remain so.

 

Burning out would be more complicated, I don't think we've seen that Healed. Would have to build more of the channelling tunnel rather than merely Heal a cut.

[Jedimuppet]

Just want to point out that channelling is something done with the mind' date=' and thus not really completely physical. As I remember, Nynaeve noted there was nothing really wrong with Siuan and Leane physically. So the cut would also be in Lanfear's mind. Also, the mind of Lews Therin can channel in Rand's body even though it cannot access his body functions.

 

Being transmigrated, Lanfear obviously retained her mind as it was: her memories, skills, everything. So she in fact should also retain the mind-part of her channelling ability, and if that is cut, then it should remain so.

 

Burning out would be more complicated, I don't think we've seen that Healed. Would have to build more of the channelling tunnel rather than merely Heal a cut.[/quote']

 

Well you could say the same thing about life, GF...if the life is cut, then it should stay so? Come on..the DO is a god, and he hit the reset..nuff said.

J

[HighLordXanthus]

In the last 2 hours i have been searching for all the references to cyndane. The only first person perspective is the one i quoted before.

 

Then the woman struck back at her, and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger the Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have and angreal, too.(Winter's Heart, chapter 35, page 649, hb)

 

It only speaks of her being held. The only other mentions of her are from other chosen's perspective. I still hold to atleast the possiblity of her new form and power level being a price of the finn's some how, over rebirth and the Dark One some how minimizing her ability.

 

Graendal's Favorite,

 

That would say that any soul stilled, gentled, severed, burned out whatever would NEVER be reborn with that ability to channel. That would make no sense. That would be like saying that Rand must be insane because Lewis Therin was in his last incarnation. Both are of the mind as you say. That could not be.

[Jedimuppet]

In the last 2 hours i have been searching for all the references to cyndane. The only first person perspective is the one i quoted before.

 

Then the woman struck back at her' date=' and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger the Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have and angreal, too.(Winter's Heart, chapter 35, page 649, hb)[/quote']

 

It only speaks of her being held. The only other mentions of her are from other chosen's perspective. I still hold to atleast the possiblity of her new form and power level being a price of the finn's some how, over rebirth and the Dark One some how minimizing her ability

 

When cyndane is moving up the hill, she thinks of how she will have revenge on LTT. It's in there I dont' know what to tell you. As I said, the only thing that matters is that Cyndane is Lanfear, in another body.

 

When have we seen Forsaken come back in another body? Oh, right, after they DIED...

J

[Jedimuppet]

In the last 2 hours i have been searching for all the references to cyndane. The only first person perspective is the one i quoted before.

 

Then the woman struck back at her' date=' and she suffered her second shock. She was stronger the Cyndane had been before the Aelfinn and the Eelfinn held her! That was impossible; no woman could be stronger. She must have and angreal, too.(Winter's Heart, chapter 35, page 649, hb)[/quote']

 

It only speaks of her being held. The only other mentions of her are from other chosen's perspective. I still hold to atleast the possiblity of her new form and power level being a price of the finn's some how, over rebirth and the Dark One some how minimizing her ability

 

from the WOT encyclopedia summary of WH chapter 35:

 

Cyndane POV - Cyndane feels the flow of saidar and knows that Lews Therin found a woman to use the female access key.6 She would have faced the Great Lord or the Creator with him, but he spurned her. She can feel Moridin stroking her cour'souvra. She opens a gateway and steps into a rolling forest. She spins a web for death.(7)

 

Cyndane POV - As Cyndane runs from her third gateway, she prays to the Great Lord that she will reach Lews Therin first so she can see him die.

 

J