Black Ajah? Big deal.

[GrandpaG]

Who cares if some sisters are black ajah?  What is there to be afraid of?  What harm can they do?  Are they worse than trollocs of halfmen?  Just because they can channel?  Because we can't tell the normal sisters from the darkfriends?

 

The black ajah has existed for quite a while.  They have to do everything clandestine which makes them inefficient.  They will be far more effective when they can work in the open (TG).  For the time being, their only real threat is the fact that they exist (and the occasional murder).

 

Are you "afraid" of them?  What impact will they have on TG?  Will things be different if the efforts in the White Tower (witch hunt) are successful?  If all of the black ajah sisters were eliminated, would the Shadow make up for it someplace else?  ENJOY!

[Vemynal]

The White Tower has been a long standing source of order for Randland, something (so they say) that has since its beginning been devoted to the Light.

 

If the Black Ajah, working in secrecy, was able to come to control the White tower (as avriline did w/ Elaida (sp)) they could influence the world into chaos, further weakening the resistance against the shadows might.

 

[RobertAlexWillis]

The most dangerous thing the Black Ajah has going for it right now is access to the Tower's stash of angreal, sa'angreal, and ter'angreal.  If I were in charge of the Shadow, my opening move in open hostilities would be for the Black Ajah to steal as much of that equipment as possible, and then have Cyndane and Graendal, (or Cyndane and Moghedien, if Moridin feels he needs COMPLETE control) each with a sa'angreal, hiding their ability and using inverted weaves, smash Tar Valon into kindling.

[Mazrim Taim]

I have to agree, the white tower isn't the queen on the board but she is no doubt a valuable back row piece and corruption only weakens her further to a pawn if unchecked.

[callandor]

well, i think that the white tower is still greatly influental and medlesome, but are not as influental as they used to be, and i think people are starting to see more fault in the white tower and are realizing that they arent the best of the best anymore.

[Silver]

what i don't understand is why the Blacks didn't make a move for power a long time ago. they could have easily ruled the tower if they set their mind to it

[RobertAlexWillis]

They did, when they started killing Amyrlins and men who could channel.  Then Ishy slapped them down, because he wants them behind the scenes.

 

Ishamael was insane ... clever, but insane.  There are several points at which the Shadow really could have sealed the deal, and failed.

[Luckers]

To be fair Ishamael's motive weren't singularily directed towards the victory of the shadow in Tarmon Gai'don at that stage... another key factor was the possibility of turning the Dragon soul, something which would have dramatically altered the landscape of the fight... potentially it could have even ended the war in the Shadow's favour.

 

As far as Hail Mary's go, this one seems fairly obvious.

 

Beyond that, as to the prospective value of the Black Ajah. Concider the potential influence of a darkfriend channeler in a defensive battle (which, to be fair, most of the Lights battles will be, given their smaller numbers). Place one darkfriend near a gate at Tar Valon when the trollocs attack, get them to striked at the right moment, and the gate falls... the same goes for any defence.

 

A channeler has the ability to effect a large number of defenders--even if just for a moment before the other channlers swatted her down--and in that is the inherent and deep danger of hidden darkfriend channelers. place one darkfriend channeler amongst even a hundred of the light, wait for the right moment in the siege, the right moment when the assault is pressing the hardest, and have that person weave even just a simple distraction, much less a massive ball of fire, or wind, or some other destructive force.

 

Moving on from the ease with which a darkfriend channeler could act as a sabatour, there is the fact that we have seen the impact of non-channelers fighting channelers... in KoD we see somewhere between 30 and 50 channelers destroy over a hundred thousand trollocs. Now admittedly LTT's weaves came into play, yet nevertheless the devestating message is clear. Non-channelers simply do not have a chance against channelers in open combat. Not unless old Crazy Mike's prediction of 'BILIONS!!!!' of Trollocs in the borderlands is true.

 

Short of that, we have also seen that a smaller number of channelers can contain the efforts of a larger number of channlers, allowing from a more even fight--specifically i am speaking of Dumai's Wells in which 36 Aes Sedai held off over 200 (stronger) shaido, over 90 (stonger) wise ones of the other clans, and even the 600 Asha'man, at least for a time.

 

The point being that in battle, the shadow needs channelers... it doesn't even need enough to outnumber the lights, all it needs is enough to contain their attacks for a little while, in order that the trolloc hordes get close enought to use the fact of their numbers to bring the battle home. That combined with the dramatic effect a single channeling sabatour could have in the heat of battler....

 

No, i think the blacks are far more dangerous than in that they are in proximity to angreal.

[Mandein]

While the Black may or may not effect open Battle they are still Aes Sedai.

Aes Sedai have for 3 thousand years pulled the strings of thrones.They could work to manipulate those in power against Rand and the tower itself.

And as shown if one of the black was to get marginal control of the tower you saw how ineffective the tower becomes.

 

Mandein

[RobertAlexWillis]

Short of that, we have also seen that a smaller number of channelers can contain the efforts of a larger number of channlers, allowing from a more even fight--specifically i am speaking of Dumai's Wells in which 36 Aes Sedai held off over 200 (stronger) shaido, over 90 (stonger) wise ones of the other clans, and even the 600 Asha'man, at least for a time.

 

Well ... I have to disagree with your tactical assessment there ... the attacking channelers were not free to unleash their Power fully, because their objective was not simply destroying those 36 Aes Sedai, it was getting Rand out alive.  If there had been no need to keep someone in the camp alive, the Shaido Wise Ones, and certainly the Asha'man, could have flattened those Tower Sisters in mere heartbeats.

 

As to the danger of the Black Ajah, yes, they can do damage, but I still believe their greatest threat is their proximity and access to the tools the White Tower has collected.  Imagine what Cyndane could do with the fluted white rod sa'angreal.  Personally, the fact that that particular trove has not been plundered already is one of the Shadow's most stark tactical failures.

[lou]

the greatest influence of the shadow working "under cover" per say, would have to be moghedian, who controlled the greatest "spy ring" of aes sedai there ever was, right under lews therin's nose.i wonder if this was the very roots of the black ajah.

the greatest threat is, as it was then, the leaking of vital information. that is where the BA can do the most damage.

the reference for the mog spy ring comes from TGWB.

[Hero of Satsuma]

Not unless old Crazy Mike's prediction of 'BILIONS!!!!' of Trollocs in the borderlands is true.

 

Of topic....

 

What ever happened to crazymike?  He just kind of disappeared.

 

His ideas were quite, ummmm.....crazy?  But most of the time worth a chuckle.

[Siemba]

Isnt the deal with the black Ajah just that they are a total confliction of the white tower? What with the White tower being dedicated to the Creator and the Light and all that jazziness. The Black Ajah is an issue because it makes no sence. Its like having satanist nuns or something :-\

[Luckers]

Well ... I have to disagree with your tactical assessment there ... the attacking channelers were not free to unleash their Power fully, because their objective was not simply destroying those 36 Aes Sedai, it was getting Rand out alive.  If there had been no need to keep someone in the camp alive, the Shaido Wise Ones, and certainly the Asha'man, could have flattened those Tower Sisters in mere heartbeats.

 

I'm sorry, i disagree. The Shaido's intention was to break down the Aes Sedai defences, and whilst inevitibly they would have succeeded, it took them time.

 

Frankly i see nothing in the text to support your assertion that the Aes Sedai could be swept aside had Rand not been hostage. Recall that the majority of the Wise One's were not seeking Rand's capture, only the group that knew of Doesine saught that. The rest saught only to punish the Aes Sedai for Doesine's death. Therefore the claim that the Aes Sedai only held out due to the timidity of their attackers holds no real merit

 

The Aes Sedai held against dramatic odds, and whilst they would doubtlessly have won, they do stand as a clear example that channelers can hold against superirior numbers. Especially since they would have held fror longer had Rand not sabotaged their defences.

 

Quote from: Luckers on July 16, 2007, 05:18:49 AM

Not unless old Crazy Mike's prediction of 'BILIONS!!!!' of Trollocs in the borderlands is true.

 

Of topic....

 

What ever happened to crazymike?  He just kind of disappeared.

 

His ideas were quite, ummmm.....crazy?  But most of the time worth a chuckle.

 

He got banned.

[GrandpaG]

According to real AS, they don't exist.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

The most dangerous thing the Black Ajah has going for it right now is access to the Tower's stash of angreal, sa'angreal, and ter'angreal.  If I were in charge of the Shadow, my opening move in open hostilities would be for the Black Ajah to steal as much of that equipment as possible, and then have Cyndane and Graendal, (or Cyndane and Moghedien, if Moridin feels he needs COMPLETE control) each with a sa'angreal, hiding their ability and using inverted weaves, smash Tar Valon into kindling.

 

The only sa'angreal that is in the White Tower is the fluted rod used to heal Mat.

 

 

Now if you really wanted to do something, steal the horn of valere and blow it for the Shadow...

[Gat]

i was under the impression that only mat can actually call the heroes using the horn now, since he already blew it. my memory is a bit foggy on that and i kinda glazed over the part when verin(?) and the girls were discussing(more lecturing i suppose) the horn and mat when they were taking mat to the tower

[GrandpaG]

The black ajah already has the horn, remember?  Verin supposedly took it to Siuan.  It's gone.  The Light will have to fight without it.  That's the only reason Matt survived his visit to Tar Valon.  They'll seduce him to the dark side at TG.  He won't be able to resist blowing the horn again when he sees it.  Padan Fain will show Matt the dagger and offer it to him if he pledges allegiance to the Great Lord of the Dark.  Matt will be like a coke addict staring at a big bag of blow.  He'll crumble.  The shadow will gain the support of the heroes of the horn.

 

I sure hope the shadow never gets the Horn of Valere.  That would be just awful.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

i was under the impression that only mat can actually call the heroes using the horn now, since he already blew it. my memory is a bit foggy on that and i kinda glazed over the part when verin(?) and the girls were discussing(more lecturing i suppose) the horn and mat when they were taking mat to the tower

 

That's actually a debate, since the question is whether or not Mat actually died when he was hung from the tree in Shadow Rising. If he did die, the link is broken, and can be used by a DF.

[RobertAlexWillis]

The only sa'angreal that is in the White Tower is the fluted rod used to heal Mat.

 

Um, no.

 

Thats the only one we've seen used, and it is the most powerful one they have, but its not the only one.  We don't have any numbers, of course, and I doubt that there are more than 5 or 6 at the most, but the fact that the white fluted wand is specifically identified as the "most powerful sa'angreal in the Tower's possession" means that there is more than one.  And a sa'angreal for each surviving female Forsaken would be bad, bad news for the Light.

 

Plus however many regular angreal there are. 

 

And apparently many ter'angreal ... most of which the Aes Sedai don't know how to use.  What do you want to bet Cyndane or Graendal would know exactly what they are for?

 

That's actually a debate, since the question is whether or not Mat actually died when he was hung from the tree in Shadow Rising. If he did die, the link is broken, and can be used by a DF.

 

Actually, its not much of a debate, since Jordan reportedly said outright that Mat did not die when he was hung in Rhuidean.  http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/2_nondark/2.1_taveren/2.1.3_mat-horn.html

 

The prophecy about dying and living again was fulfilled in Caemlyn, when he was dead, then not dead, because of Rahvin being killed by balefire.  Since that death never actually happened now, its pretty safe to assume that Mat is still linked to the Horn.

 

The Shadow, however, would still get meaningful benefit from stealing the Horn, since that would at least mean that Mat could not blow it.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Oh okay thanks for clearing that up. I had been under the impression that there were very few surviving sa'angreal from the Age of Legends (Callandor, the fluted rod, and the two choedan kal). But I guess I was wrong.

 

I didn't know RJ had said anything about the death at Rhuidean, so thanks for that too.

 

However, I can't help but wonder if the horn can only be blown once...

[RobertAlexWillis]

Oh okay thanks for clearing that up. I had been under the impression that there were very few surviving sa'angreal from the Age of Legends (Callandor, the fluted rod, and the two choedan kal). But I guess I was wrong.

 

Those four are certainly the strongest remaining (well, three remaining now.  And, maybe 10 max (including those three or four) would still qualify as "very few" in my book.  Its just that, like having "very few" nuclear bombs, they're still potentially very dangerous.

 

However, I can't help but wonder if the horn can only be blown once...

 

I know I'm being a killjoy, but no, it is not a one use item.  Mat can blow it again to call the Heroes, and he will do so at the Last Battle.

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Are you certain of that? I mean, is there any evidence for your view?

 

Yeah, blowing it more than once would seem to be possible, but we've never heard of someone finding and blowing the horn aside from Mat, so I don't think there is anything to suggest other than what I said. Or anything to suggest against what you said, either...

[Majsju]

Are you certain of that? I mean, is there any evidence for your view?

 

Yeah, blowing it more than once would seem to be possible, but we've never heard of someone finding and blowing the horn aside from Mat, so I don't think there is anything to suggest other than what I said. Or anything to suggest against what you said, either...

 

What sense would it make to have the horn bound to Mat as long as he lives if it can't be used again?

 

[Ealdur Tinuviel]

Well, from everything I've read, it was meant to be blown at the Last Battle. But Mat used it on the Seanchan attack.

 

Now if Mat could blow the horn all the time, why not get it back and then blow it every time a major battle occurs, to defeat the Seanchan again, or conquer some territory, etc. It becomes too powerful of a plot device, though this may be the reason RJ has it still in the Tower, so it doesnt get too handy.